Stopped by LEO while carrying

[Guest DanE479]

The holstered weapon is safest only if you know for certain the carrier's intentions.

We can argue this all day. I'm down. The simple fact of the matter is that you (according to what I can gather) have never been a LEO, and have no understanding of what an officer can face while in the course of his duty. For you to second guess or arm chair quarterback tactics is a non-starter. There is a particular mindset necessary for one to survive in that career, and if it means annoying some civilians in the name of officer safety, then so be it. THe top priority of any police officer is to make it to the end of the shift with as many holes in him as he started with, and still be breathing.

[Guest rsgillmd]

It ain't just the police. I had 30 people in my HCP class. I'd say there were 25 of them that have no business owning a firearm let alone carrying it. They passed the class so they'll get a permit............

Dredd, would you please clarify that statement. What do you mean they had no business owning a firearm, let alone carrying it, but still passed the class? Are you saying you weren't confident in their ability to understand basic safety rules, but they passed because they met the minimum requirements? Or are you saying something else? It's a very vague statement that sounds odd to my ears.

I was brainwashed in NJ/NY by the guns are evil crowd. My colleagues at work are the ones that corrected my misconceptions and convinced me to get my permit. I believe the theory that says the more people that own and/or carry, the greater the deterrent factor for crime. When I took the next level handgun class at Range Master the instructor played a 911 tape of a woman and her baby who were murdered. There were a good 2-3 minutes where she could have established a defensive position. It really drove home the point that you cannot rely on cops to save you, even with excellent response times.

Regarding the original topic, god forbid that I am pulled over for something, I would probably just inform the officer in a respectful manner. From the limited interactions I've had with Memphis cops (at work, restaurant, Beale St. etc.), they seem like a good group of people. I don't think anyone likes a surprise. If there are no surprises, I doubt they would act in anything more than a professional manner. I wouldn't care if they take my gun from me, because I know I'll get it back when the stop is over.

Cops in India -- now that's a different story. The ones I've seen are no better than street thugs.

[JayC]

The holstered weapon is safest only if you know for certain the carrier's intentions.

We can argue this all day. I'm down. The simple fact of the matter is that you (according to what I can gather) have never been a LEO, and have no understanding of what an officer can face while in the course of his duty. For you to second guess or arm chair quarterback tactics is a non-starter. There is a particular mindset necessary for one to survive in that career, and if it means annoying some civilians in the name of officer safety, then so be it. THe top priority of any police officer is to make it to the end of the shift with as many holes in him as he started with, and still be breathing.

And that comment right there is why so many people have concerns over interactions with police officers today.

What many of you forget is that you're public servants and also 'civilians' just like us. You're asked to do a hard job for the public good, but not at the expense of the citizens who hire and pay your salary. You're not a member of the military, you're just another civilian who has been hired to be a public servant.

The other problem with your comment about mind set is it's not fact based, HCP holders are probably the least likely group of people you encounter daily to pull a firearm and shoot you. In the last 15 years there have been 200 permit holders in the entire country who committed a violent crime and were convicted in the country, less than a dozen did so with a firearm while carrying in a place which required a permit. 8-12 convictions of permit holders for the entire country in the last 15 years... out of 6+ million citizens who have had a permit during that same period of time. That number is so small as to not even be worth worrying about... (Trust me, the numbers for your profession would look a lot worse over the same period of time) The fact is, permit holders are law abiding citizens and rarely do they use their firearm to commit crimes.

The fact is it's much more likely that an officer while disarming an otherwise law abiding citizen who poses no real risk to officer safety is much more likely to hurt themselves or somebody else than they are to disarm somebody who was going to shoot them.

[Guest DanE479]

You are missing my original point:

Until the officer has a chance to verify that the permit is valid, there is no baseline for trust. WHile I was working in Indiana, on no less than 6 occasions, I had encounters with individuals that were carrying and presented a carry permit to me that turned out to be invalid due to a criminal act that they had committed. 4 of these were related to domestic violence and/or orders of protection relaing to domestic violence. In all of those encounters, the subject got sent to jail for a wepons violation and other reasons. I was REALLY glad that I had disarmed those individuals BEFORE I had to arrest them.

Was I wrong to disarm them in those situations? I don'thtink so.

Don't tell me that I'm not fact based. I am not biased against people that carry firearms; I just have a bunch of experience in the grey areas that you people never even think about. I'm pretty sure that not one of you thought about having to deal with a situation like I described.

[DaveTN]

And that comment right there is why so many people have concerns over interactions with police officers today.

What many of you forget is that you're public servants and also 'civilians' just like us. You're asked to do a hard job for the public good, but not at the expense of the citizens who hire and pay your salary. You're not a member of the military, you're just another civilian who has been hired to be a public servant.

What a bunch of cop baiting

Just because he is a cop doesn’t mean he needs to bow down in your presence. It obviously pizzes you off that you are required to follow his orders. There are no laws that I am aware of that require a cop to trample all over your rights to stay alive. If he doesn’t like the way you look and he wants to disarm you; so be it. You don’t have a right to carry; you bought the privilege from the state (if you even have it) just like the rest of us. And the same laws that let you buy that privilege allow him to disarm you.

The number of permit holders is minuscule; so I doubt it has much to do with how the public feels about cops.

The other problem with your comment about mind set is it's not fact based, HCP holders are probably the least likely group of people you encounter daily to pull a firearm and shoot you. In the last 15 years there have been 200 permit holders in the entire country who committed a violent crime and were convicted in the country, less than a dozen did so with a firearm while carrying in a place which required a permit. 8-12 convictions of permit holders for the entire country in the last 15 years... out of 6+ million citizens who have had a permit during that same period of time. That number is so small as to not even be worth worrying about... (Trust me, the numbers for your profession would look a lot worse over the same period of time) The fact is, permit holders are law abiding citizens and rarely do they use their firearm to commit crimes.

More …. You are clueless. You have no idea how many carry permit holders have shot someone. And trust me, if you were out there that number would matter to you regardless of what it is.

The fact is it's much more likely that an officer while disarming an otherwise law abiding citizen who poses no real risk to officer safety is much more likely to hurt themselves or somebody else than they are to disarm somebody who was going to shoot them.

And some more BS…. You would be the first to start whining about posting links. So go ahead… post some links to factual information that show there is a greater risk in a cop disarming someone than not. We would have to be morons to believe that and it certainly shows your credibility by posting it as a “Factâ€.

As a cop I would have trampled all over your rights to stay alive; anyone would.

Thankfully that was not the intent of our founding fathers and there is nothing in any law any where that would require a cop to do so.

Edited April 9, 2011 by DaveTN

[Guest Silvertip46]

It ain't just the police. I had 30 people in my HCP class. I'd say there were 25 of them that have no business owning a firearm let alone carrying it. They passed the class so they'll get a permit.

As a former LEO and certified LEO Firearms Instructor I can tell you that odds are a HCP holder's weapon is safer in my hands than theirs...

I know about the LEOPA and the authorization. I wasn't questioning you Dave, I just wanted to hear Dredd's reason, as some here doubt he has even been a LEO.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Silvertip46

[DaveTN]

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Edited April 9, 2011 by DaveTN

[Guest HvyMtl]

Hmm. "talking to my wife on the phone, not paying attention to one of the many changes in the speed limit..."

rt_steve and all reread the above line. This line scares me.

Why? I have worked in transportation safety and risk. Depending on the sources, talking on the cellphone while driving, even WITH Bluetooth or headset, is equal to or worse than driving DWI. Please, for your loved ones' sake, DO NOT TEXT OR TALK WHILE DRIVING. Severe accidents can and do occur from cell use and driving.

Please. I have seen the consequences. I still have nightmares from what I have seen. Please DO NOT text or talk and drive. Next time you pick up that phone, visualize your wife, girl or boyfriend, children, and family in funeral clothes. Next time, find a safe place to pull over and talk. It may save your life, or in the least, prevent the pullover in the first place...

Semi-off topic rant off.

The Officer was within his right to disarm. (Legally) I do not believe you have to announce you are carrying, though I do, by stating, I am carrying and hand the Permit, proof of insurance, and DL over. (Never say, "Gun" or "Firearm," as you may have a new Cop, or one which may react poorly to those terms.) What has happened to me? Well, the one time I was pulled over (not speeding, they had a bolo on the car type I was driving) The officer, looked at the Permit, and insurance, gave them back, and went to check my DL. After checking my DL, and the vehicle license plate, he gave me back my DL, and asked me to have a nice day. No issues. No worries or concerns. Remember: The majority of police have no issue with Permit holders, as they are aware we rarely, if ever, commit crimes...

Dredd, care to explain your comment?

Edited April 11, 2011 by HvyMtl

[Guest Silvertip46]

''

Edited April 10, 2011 by Silvertip46

[DaveTN]

I see, I'll stay out of it then.

[JayC]

The process for revoking permits is completely different in IN, from here in TN. IN (unless it's changed recently) has a distributed permit system ran by each Sheriff, while TN has a centralized system. With requirements that the courts confiscate permits when a person is charged with violent felonies and certain serious misdemeanor charges.

The chances you're going to run across somebody who's been charged with a felony or class A misdemeanor is going to be rare in TN, let alone convicted. You may very well run across somebody who has had their permit suspended because of an order of protection they don't even know about, or a failure to pay child support. But, those don't strike me as harden criminals

Maybe, it would be a valid excuse to disarm all non-TN residents because officers don't have the ability to even check those permits. But, I'm just curious how many times officers are coming across people who have a valid TN permit in hand, and the computer system then spits back that it is invalid (I only am aware of 1 case reported on here in the last year, which was a computer error).

I'm not against disarming when there is a real concern for officer safety... I can see limited cases where officer safety is a valid concern even with permit holders... I just hear about a lot of cases where it sure doesn't seem to be a real safety issue to me.

You are missing my original point:

Until the officer has a chance to verify that the permit is valid, there is no baseline for trust. WHile I was working in Indiana, on no less than 6 occasions, I had encounters with individuals that were carrying and presented a carry permit to me that turned out to be invalid due to a criminal act that they had committed. 4 of these were related to domestic violence and/or orders of protection relaing to domestic violence. In all of those encounters, the subject got sent to jail for a wepons violation and other reasons. I was REALLY glad that I had disarmed those individuals BEFORE I had to arrest them.

Was I wrong to disarm them in those situations? I don'thtink so.

Don't tell me that I'm not fact based. I am not biased against people that carry firearms; I just have a bunch of experience in the grey areas that you people never even think about. I'm pretty sure that not one of you thought about having to deal with a situation like I described.

[JayC]

Dave,

I agree completely, police officers are citizens too... no more or less than I am... I don't expect any man to bow down in my presence... but I also don't expect anybody to ask me to bow down in theirs. My issue with his post is exactly that he thinks it's fine to annoy "civilians" in the name of officer safety... Which he seems to forget he's one of those "civilians" just like the rest of us. If you can't see how that type of attitude can foster distrust... I don't know what to say.

I'm not going to argue rights vs privilege, you and I see that issue completely differently, we've had a number of arguments, I doubt this one will change either of our minds. I have God given rights, whether the state of TN or the Federal government recognize those rights doesn't change the fact I have them.

Permit holders out number police officers by a 3 to 1 or more. But that has little to do with my point, that his comment about annoying citizens, fosters distrust within the population as a whole not just within permit holders... again my post was aimed at his them vs us "civilians" comment, not purely his stance on disarming every permit holder he ever comes into contact with. I just took the time to point out he should be much more afraid of drowning in his bathtub than being killed by a permit holder

Since I often love to request links, as you pointed out, I'll back up my statement:

VPC - The Violence Policy Center - Concealed Carry Killers

This is clearly an anti-gun group, their current count is 297 people, most of which are pending cases, not convictions, the number maybe slightly higher than their count... once you start digging into the number of convicted persons, and whether they used a gun, and needed a carry permit to posses the gun the number drops drastically... down to just under a dozen... you're welcome to read through all the VPC BS to count for yourself.

So, the odds of a police officer coming across a permit holder who is going to commit a murder with a firearm sometime in their life? About the same as them getting hit by lightning. Both about 1 in 550,000... So it's a lot more likely that an officer is going to get hit by lightning than be killed by a permit holder.

As for the ND vs the above, you're right that is a total guess on my part, there are no good stats on police officer involved ND's, to be able to compared to... so you may very well be right...

What a bunch of cop baiting

Just because he is a cop doesn’t mean he needs to bow down in your presence. It obviously pizzes you off that you are required to follow his orders. There are no laws that I am aware of that require a cop to trample all over your rights to stay alive. If he doesn’t like the way you look and he wants to disarm you; so be it. You don’t have a right to carry; you bought the privilege from the state (if you even have it) just like the rest of us. And the same laws that let you buy that privilege allow him to disarm you.

The number of permit holders is minuscule; so I doubt it has much to do with how the public feels about cops.

More …. You are clueless. You have no idea how many carry permit holders have shot someone. And trust me, if you were out there that number would matter to you regardless of what it is.

And some more BS…. You would be the first to start whining about posting links. So go ahead… post some links to factual information that show there is a greater risk in a cop disarming someone than not. We would have to be morons to believe that and it certainly shows your credibility by posting it as a “Factâ€.

As a cop I would have trampled all over your rights to stay alive; anyone would.

Thankfully that was not the intent of our founding fathers and there is nothing in any law any where that would require a cop to do so.

[CQB Elite]

I know about the LEOPA and the authorization. I wasn't questioning you Dave, I just wanted to hear Dredd's reason, as some here doubt he has even been a LEO.

Silvertip- you have the SEAL Trident in your avatar. I've never questioned if you were/are a member of that organization or if you earned it thru playing PS3. Don't question my being once a LEO!

I think Dave answered your question. FORMER LEO are not authorized to carry. If it will help I'll be glad to post the definition of "former" for you. I know that words with more than 4 letters can be tough for some...

FWIW- I know a lot of active officers that also got their permit to carry. They did so because carrying as a LEO, even off duty, puts you under your dept policy and dept policy can be very restrictive. If you are carrying as a private citizen you can respond as one.

[DaveTN]

The chances you're going to run across somebody who's been charged with a felony or class A misdemeanor is going to be rare in TN, let alone convicted. You may very well run across somebody who has had their permit suspended because of an order of protection they don't even know about, or a failure to pay child support. But, those don't strike me as harden criminals

The chances that you are going to run across someone that would justify the use of deadly force is much smaller than it is for a cop. Can I have your permit? The anti-gun people want to take away our permits based on the same ridiculous argument you are making.

Maybe, it would be a valid excuse to disarm all non-TN residents because officers don't have the ability to even check those permits. But, I'm just curious how many times officers are coming across people who have a valid TN permit in hand, and the computer system then spits back that it is invalid (I only am aware of 1 case reported on here in the last year, which was a computer error).

What does that have to do with an Officer disarming you for his own safety?

I'm not against disarming when there is a real concern for officer safety... I can see limited cases where officer safety is a valid concern even with permit holders... I just hear about a lot of cases where it sure doesn't seem to be a real safety issue to me.

As a citizen I couldn’t care less what you think. I contend that the Officer is the one that can make that call not only is it his right, but it is his responsibility to disarm anyone he thinks might be a threat. After it’s all sorted out he can give the gun back and let them go on their way.

But… that’s just my opinion as a citizen and an HCP holder. I support our Officers, have walked in their shoes, and know that “Go home alive†is a motto they have to live by.

Dave,

I agree completely, police officers are citizens too... no more or less than I am... I don't expect any man to bow down in my presence... but I also don't expect anybody to ask me to bow down in theirs. My issue with his post is exactly that he thinks it's fine to annoy "civilians" in the name of officer safety... Which he seems to forget he's one of those "civilians" just like the rest of us. If you can't see how that type of attitude can foster distrust... I don't know what to say.

Don’t get your panties in a bunch because someone uses theword “Civiliansâ€, it’s used to differentiate between talking about you and cops(there is a difference). I can’t comment on his statements right now, I haven’t went back and read them, as I said above I’ll leave that alone because I haven’t been paying attention to what he said or whether he is a cop or not.

I'm not going to argue rights vs privilege, you and I see that issue completely differently, we've had a number of arguments, I doubt this one will change either of our minds. I have God given rights, whether the state of TN or the Federal government recognize those rights doesn't change the fact I have them.

And I have made the statement several times that I believe I have the right to carry a gun; but I’m not arguing it comes from the 2nd amendment. The 2nd amendment battle has been fought and lost, just as I assured you it would be. You have a right to own a gun, but you don’t have a right to carry one. Your feelings or mine on that are on that are immaterial to law enforcement.

So, the odds of a police officer coming across a permit holder who is going to commit a murder with a firearm sometime in their life?

Who cares if it is an HCP holder or a thug that just shot acop? How is the cop supposed to know? You seem to want a cop to risk his life based on a piece of paper you can buy from the state. That’s ridiculous.

[DaveTN]

FWIW- I know a lot of active officers that also got their permit to carry. They did so because carrying as a LEO, even off duty, puts you under your dept policy and dept policy can be very restrictive. If you are carrying as a private citizen you can respond as one.

I have told by several members of this forum that is the case in Tennessee. I have also been told that Tennessee Officers have restrictions on off duty carry. I was a cop in Illinois, we had no such thing as “Off Duty†when it came to firearms carry and the state borders were our “Police Power†boundaries. So I find the discussions of these restrictions interesting.

[bubbadavis]

The holstered weapon is safest only if you know for certain the carrier's intentions.

We can argue this all day. I'm down. The simple fact of the matter is that you (according to what I can gather) have never been a LEO, and have no understanding of what an officer can face while in the course of his duty. For you to second guess or arm chair quarterback tactics is a non-starter. There is a particular mindset necessary for one to survive in that career, and if it means annoying some civilians in the name of officer safety, then so be it. THe top priority of any police officer is to make it to the end of the shift with as many holes in him as he started with, and still be breathing.

Well, we're going to agree to disagree. Handling the weapon brings in safety risks that aren't there with leaving it holstered. As far as trust, citizens also must trust the officer in encounters. I can google up lots of evidence where this trust is misplaced in both cases.

[CQB Elite]

I have told by several members of this forum that is the case in Tennessee. I have also been told that Tennessee Officers have restrictions on off duty carry. I was a cop in Illinois, we had no such thing as Off Duty when it came to firearms carry and the state borders were our Police Power boundaries. So I find the discussions of these restrictions interesting.

I worked in Florida and from what I've seen things are a lot different here in TN. In FL we had a duty to act and here they don't. I've been told by a LT at a TN SO that even while on duty they don't have to act if they see something go down. In FL you won't be on the job very long. Also there is no open carry in FL for citizens, even with a permit. Only LEO can OC. Like you we were on duty 24/7- goes back to required to act under Good Samaritan Law and dept policy. Lots of guys I worked with got permits because it exempted you from the 3 day waiting period on handgun purchases. LEO were not exempt.

[bigwakes]

I have been pulled over 3 times while carrying. All three times I handed the officer my permit and DL. One cop asked where it was and I said small of my back. He said don't touch it and we will be fine. The second time was on a highway at night and the cop came to my passenger window. He asked where the gun was and I said in the glove box. I opened it and he asked me to hand the gun to him. Being a little too cautious I asked if he would get it instead to avoid any confusion. He did and brought it back to me unloaded with the pipe round loose and mag out. He laid it on the seat when he came back. The third time the gun was in my center console and the cop asked me to put it on the dashboard where he could see it. I thought that was strange, but oblidged. All three times resulted in a conversation about firearms and no ticket. I always hand over my HCP even if not armed. Even that has gotten me a warning a couple of times. I have slowed down in recent years, which is probably the best thing anyway.

[Guest Silvertip46]

Silvertip- you have the SEAL Trident in your avatar. I've never questioned if you were/are a member of that organization or if you earned it thru playing PS3. Don't question my being once a LEO!

I think Dave answered your question. FORMER LEO are not authorized to carry. If it will help I'll be glad to post the definition of "former" for you. I know that words with more than 4 letters can be tough for some...

FWIW- I know a lot of active officers that also got their permit to carry. They did so because carrying as a LEO, even off duty, puts you under your dept policy and dept policy can be very restrictive. If you are carrying as a private citizen you can respond as one.

Got one on my arm too. Be glad to show it to you to remove any doubt..... amongst other things

Edited April 10, 2011 by Silvertip46

[CQB Elite]

The internet is a powerful tool with countless amounts of information (both good & bad). I have been searching and can't find a single document that shows how many accountants were killed while completing a tax return or how many doctors were shot while removing a weird looking mole. No stats on Home Depot employees shot while stacking lumber. How many plumbers were killed while responding to a leaking toilet?

For those that don't like the way an officer conducts his business I'd suggest that you put on your big boy pants and go out an do the job. I'm sure your way would be much better.

If a LEO wants to disarm me during contact I say more power to them. I will gladly do what they wish because I have done their job. I know what they go thru day in and day out.

[CQB Elite]

Tough talker behind that computer

Silvertip- you didn't answer my question so I guess what I thought was true.....

[Guest Silvertip46]

Silvertip- you have the SEAL Trident in your avatar. I've never questioned if you were/are a member of that organization or if you earned it thru playing PS3. Don't question my being once a LEO!

I think Dave answered your question. FORMER LEO are not authorized to carry. If it will help I'll be glad to post the definition of "former" for you. I know that words with more than 4 letters can be tough for some...

FWIW- I know a lot of active officers that also got their permit to carry. They did so because carrying as a LEO, even off duty, puts you under your dept policy and dept policy can be very restrictive. If you are carrying as a private citizen you can respond as one.

You must no longer be a LEO because you couldn't understand English. Show me the question in your post numn*#@

[CQB Elite]

You must no longer be a LEO because you couldn't understand English. Show me the question in your post numn*#@

?

Edited April 10, 2011 by Dredd371

[J5684]

I worked in Florida and from what I've seen things are a lot different here in TN. In FL we had a duty to act and here they don't. I've been told by a LT at a TN SO that even while on duty they don't have to act if they see something go down. In FL you won't be on the job very long. Also there is no open carry in FL for citizens, even with a permit. Only LEO can OC. Like you we were on duty 24/7- goes back to required to act under Good Samaritan Law and dept policy. Lots of guys I worked with got permits because it exempted you from the 3 day waiting period on handgun purchases. LEO were not exempt.

As a sworn LEO we DO have some type duty to act, TCA Title 38 Chapter 3

I don't have to stop people speeding or running red lights, stop signs ect, True.. But in our dept we have a duty to act policy on duty. We also have a policy off duty. We don't have to run after shoplifters, bank robbers, pull out guns or anything that would endanger ourselves or public safety off duty. Simple observation and reporting is all we are required to do...

I'm glad to see people carrying legally, I had a HCP before I was a LEO and will continue to keep it.

On traffic stops I never ask a person with a HCP in good standing to ground their weapon. I usually get handed the HCP with a drivers license and I always ask if there are any weapons for my own safety HCP or not. When I run the DL it will tell me if the HCP is valid and I'll know if the person is armed or not already.

The only time I do ask them to ground or secure is if I'm conducting any type of investigation, this includes traffic accidents. Most of the time I get asked "Do you want me to secure it" I don't disarm them I ask them to ground it and secure it unless it's a situation which would require me to disarm the person.

There is a TCA allowing a peace officer to disarm a valid HCP holder with respect to safety. I have run across many turds that have a HCP and carry that shouldn't and it's only a matter of time before they lose that privilege.

[Guest Kamikaze]

As a sworn LEO we DO have some type duty to act, TCA Title 38 Chapter 3

I don't have to stop people speeding or running red lights, stop signs ect, True.. But in our dept we have a duty to act policy on duty. We also have a policy off duty. We don't have to run after shoplifters, bank robbers, pull out guns or anything that would endanger ourselves or public safety off duty. Simple observation and reporting is all we are required to do...

I'm glad to see people carrying legally, I had a HCP before I was a LEO and will continue to keep it.

On traffic stops I never ask a person with a HCP in good standing to ground their weapon. I usually get handed the HCP with a drivers license and I always ask if there are any weapons for my own safety HCP or not. When I run the DL it will tell me if the HCP is valid and I'll know if the person is armed or not already.

The only time I do ask them to ground or secure is if I'm conducting any type of investigation, this includes traffic accidents. Most of the time I get asked "Do you want me to secure it" I don't disarm them I ask them to ground it and secure it unless it's a situation which would require me to disarm the person.

There is a TCA allowing a peace officer to disarm a valid HCP holder with respect to safety. I have run across many turds that have a HCP and carry that shouldn't and it's only a matter of time before they lose that privilege.

This I like.