Stopped by LEO while carrying

[Guest Springfield1911guy]

I was stopped not to long ago. It was the first time I had been stopped carrying a gun so, I was a little nervous.

As soon as the officer came to my window, I handed him my license and HCP. He asked me if I had any weapons in the vehicle and I said Yes Sir.

He asked me if it was in the glove box, I said no Sir it's on my hip. He just said, on your hip? I said yes sir. He never asked to see it. He seemed like he really appreciated the fact that I was up front with him. He was very respectful and good natured.

My own opinion is to let them know right away that you're carrying. These guys have no idea who they are dealing with. I could have been a serial killer for all he knew.

A little respect goes a long way, and is usually given right back to you.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Springfield1911guy

[Fallguy]

Again, I don't even have the option of running him through a computer. Just because someone is a cop doesn't mean I automatically trust them, their judgement, etc. as an individual. Therefore, if I have to tolerate his being armed while our transaction is carried out then he should have to extend HCP holders the same courtesy.

Further, citizens/taxpayers have every right to question the judgement, actions, etc. of any public servant, period. I don't, necessarily, have a problem with police. I do have a problem that apparently, somewhere along the way, our society seems to have forgotten that police, politiicans, FBI agents, the ATF and all the other government employees work for us, not the other way around.

Much better said than some of the things I thought and never posted....

[Guest DanE479]

Again, I don't even have the option of running him through a computer. Just because someone is a cop doesn't mean I automatically trust them, their judgement, etc. as an individual. Therefore, if I have to tolerate his being armed while our transaction is carried out then he should have to extend HCP holders the same courtesy.

Further, citizens/taxpayers have every right to question the judgement, actions, etc. of any public servant, period. I don't, necessarily, have a problem with police. I do have a problem that apparently, somewhere along the way, our society seems to have forgotten that police, politiicans, FBI agents, the ATF and all the other government employees work for us, not the other way around.

Until the officer runs you through the computer, he doesn't know if the permit you are showing is still valid and legal.

The police officer is armed because he deals with the scum of the earth every day. He never knows who he is going to run into, and is usually on his own during initial contact with a subject. I knew a very good Indiana State Trooper by the name of Dave Rich who was killed by a disturbed man while on duty. Details: Update on Fatal Shooting of Indiana State Trooper David E. Rich | Muncie Free Press

Dave was doing a simple motorist safety check when the subject shot and killed him. It should be stated that the subject was from a different state, and I don't know if he had a weapons permit, but in my mind, it is irrelevent.

You can be the coolest person in the world. The police officer that walks up to your car does not know that. All he knows is that he had a facially valid reason to initiate contact with you because you broke a law or ordinance. At that point, officer safety takes priority until the situation is over.

I disagree with your phrase about "tolerating" and armed police officer. What other way would you have it? THat officers have no means of defending themselves?

I think it's really easy to sit and armchair quarterback about how a police officer does his job when you've never had to put your ass on the line for a populace that generally detests you.

Politicians work for YOU, the voter. Police and LEO's of all types work for the COMMUNITY, and serve more than just YOU. That means that if they feel safer in thier job by disarming you during a traffic stop, then so be it.

I've been shot at before, and hit once, early in my career. It changed the way I approached people from there on out. Just put yourself in the shoes of those officers that have to approach the unknown every day and try to understand where they are coming from. It can get pretty lonely at 0-dark-30 during a traffic stop and backup is minutes away. Hell, it can feel lonely in broad daylight and backup is on the passenger side of the car when the shooting starts. Thse thoughts and more are what is rolling through an officer's head during every initiated contact with someone.

[Fallguy]

You can be the coolest person in the world. The police officer that walks up to your car does not know that. All he knows is that he had a facially valid reason to initiate contact with you because you broke a law or ordinance. At that point, officer safety takes priority until the situation is over.

Takes priorty over what?...The law? The other persons civil rights? EVERYTHING? Where does it stop? Wouldn't it be safer for officers if no one could be legally armed and ever stop was conducted as a felony stop? If so, why isn't this done? What about officers in states where a permit is not needed to carry and/or not needed for one to be kept in the car? Are those officers less safe than the ones in TN or states where a permit is required?

I know officers have a dangerous job, but if they don't feel like they can safely do it within the bounds of the law, perhaps they need to find a different job.

[DaveTN]

Takes priorty over what?...The law? The other persons civil rights? EVERYTHING? Where does it stop? Wouldn't it be safer for officers if no one could be legally armed and ever stop was conducted as a felony stop? If so, why isn't this done? What about officers in states where a permit is not needed to carry and/or not needed for one to be kept in the car? Are those officers less safe than the ones in TN or states where a permit is required?

I know officers have a dangerous job, but if they don't feel like they can safely do it within the bounds of the law, perhaps they need to find a different job.

Are you suggesting that disarming you while they have you stopped is not within the bounds of the law? I wouldn’t trust someone just because they have an HCP. I would act based on what I see. If I think the person looks like a dirt bag; they would get disarmed. Assuming someone won’t shoot you because they have an HCP is ridiculous.

Perhaps if you can’t deal with being disarmed during an encounter with Police; you need to not carry a gun.

[Fallguy]

Are you suggesting that disarming you while they have you stopped is not within the bounds of the law? I wouldn’t trust someone just because they have an HCP. I would act based on what I see. If I think the person looks like a dirt bag; they would get disarmed. Assuming someone won’t shoot you because they have an HCP is ridiculous.

Perhaps if you can’t deal with being disarmed during an encounter with Police; you need to not carry a gun.

I think it depends on the situation. The law does allow LEOs to disarm HCP holders if he "reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals", it doesn't say he can just for his comfort.

I really don't think the legislature saw someone just being armed as a threat to the protection of LEOs, otherwise they surely wouldn't let us go armed.

I agree someone having a HCP doesn't automaticly make them a good gut anymore than someone having a badge does.

I wouldn't have a problem with a LEO disarming me if I was acting in a way the he truly believed made me a threat to him, me or others. But I do if it just so he can feel better, it's my property, not sure why he should be allowed to deprive me of the posession of it.

I answered your question....so what about mine...... Does "officer safety' mean he can pretty much do just whatever he wants regardless of the law, etc...?

Edited April 5, 2011 by Fallguy

[Guest 270win]

I think US Supreme Court decided that the police can disarm people for their own safety during a traffic stop of weapons in the immediate vicinity of passengers. It all seems constitutional.

That is why it is important to have hands visible and on steering wheel, DL out, car registration, insurance, already in hand with windows down and car turned off. If night time have the inside lights turned on. I'm even unbuckled by the time I'm stopped. If I have to get out of my car for whatever reason, I don't want to reach down with my hands to grab the seatbelt where the police can't see my hands. I keep my car registration and insurance under my passenger visor because opening glove boxes/consoles just doesn't seem fun around police who don't know me! Maybe I sound too cautious, but I don't care to have folks get more nervous than necessary in a traffic stop.

[Guest mds3d]

I don't know how good of an idea this is, but when I drive I transfer my weapon to my "truck holster" I have a good retention, easy removal holster strapped to the back of the passenger seat (easier to get to than my hip). I started this because I usually carry IWB at 4ish. It doesn't take long to be uncomfortable with the gun still there when I drive, and it's almost unaccessible while in the driver's seat.

The one time I was stopped while armed I was asked to exit the vehicle. I have no idea if he would have disarmed me if my weapon was on me, but I did not feel like my rights were violated. This was a DWI road block and I had removed my wallet (long road trip) and couldn't find it so I had to pull out of the way.

[DaveTN]

I answered your question....so what about mine...... Does "officer safety' mean he can pretty much do just whatever he wants regardless of the law, etc...?

Not regardless of the law, no. If there was a law or case law establishing some level of reasonable suspicion requirement; you might have a point. If you carrying a gun were recognized as a right by either the federal government or the state, you might have a point. But none of those things is the case.

I am not aware of any law that requires a Police Officer to put his life at risk. I was expected to enforce the laws and protect your Constitutional rights. But that is all secondary to me staying alive and protecting the innocent people around me.

If you want to hold the cops feet to the fire, that’s fine. But you can’t do it by implying they are violating rights that you do not have.

[Fallguy]

Not regardless of the law, no. If there was a law or case law establishing some level of reasonable suspicion requirement; you might have a point. If you carrying a gun were recognized as a right by either the federal government or the state, you might have a point. But none of those things is the case.

I am not aware of any law that requires a Police Officer to put his life at risk. I was expected to enforce the laws and protect your Constitutional rights. But that is all secondary to me staying alive and protecting the innocent people around me.

If you want to hold the cops feet to the fire, that’s fine. But you can’t do it by implying they are violating rights that you do not have.

I can't really argue with any of that.....

[Guest DanE479]

Dave beat me to it and said what I was going to say. There is no "right" to carry a firearm, only a privilege.

[oldogy]

Dave beat me to it and said what I was going to say. There is no "right" to carry a firearm, only a privilege.

Maybe we need to discuss the second amendment a bit more on here.

oldogy

[Guest DanE479]

Maybe we need to discuss the second amendment a bit more on here.

oldogy

Maybe you need to check current Supreme Court rulings.

In MacDonald v. Chicago, SCOTUS affirmed the right to OWN firearms as incorporated to the 2nd amendment while they commented that the right to carry firearms is not currently held as a constitutionally protected right. You tell me that in TN carrying a loaded firearm isn't a privilege; you must be granted permission to do so by the state.

You can have all the opinions you want, but it ain't going to change these facts.

[Glock30]

I have been pulled over once since I started carrying. I pulled over, placed my hands on the steering wheel, rolled down the window, and waited. Officer introduced himself and I handed over my license and HCP and informed him I was carrying. I don't remember if he even asked to see my insurance. He simply asked me to slow down, be careful, and have a nice evening.

The best option is to not be doing anything to warrant being pulled over to begin with. But if you do, be uber-polite, most respectful, and do everything in the world not to be perceived as a threat.

[bubbadavis]

At that point, officer safety takes priority until the situation is over.

In many cases, leaving the unfamiliar firearm holstered is much safer than disarming the permit holder. Handling unfamiliar weapons has plenty of potential for danger.

[Guest DanE479]

In many cases, leaving the unfamiliar firearm holstered is much safer than disarming the permit holder. Handling unfamiliar weapons has plenty of potential for danger.

That can be true, but I disagree with the word "many." A pistol is still a pistol, and as long as the bogger hook stays off the trigger (which is REALLY easy to do), there's no problem. Pretty much all pistols funtion with the smae basic principles.

The point is that the decision is ultimately up to the officer. Having a confrontational attitude about an officer wanting to disarm you during a traffic stop is counter productive and will lead to the officer being less likely to staying cool.

[DaveTN]

Maybe we need to discuss the second amendment a bit more on here.

oldogy

I was arrested and jailed for no crime other than having a gun in my car. What would you like to discuss about the 2nd amendment?

[bubbadavis]

That can be true, but I disagree with the word "many." A pistol is still a pistol, and as long as the bogger hook stays off the trigger (which is REALLY easy to do), there's no problem. Pretty much all pistols funtion with the smae basic principles.

The point is that the decision is ultimately up to the officer. Having a confrontational attitude about an officer wanting to disarm you during a traffic stop is counter productive and will lead to the officer being less likely to staying cool.

All pistols do have the same basic principles. Most of us on this forum would have no problem safely handling any number of weapons.

The issue, to me, is that not all cops (probably not most cops) are 'gun guys'. They train with, carry, and shoot Glocks (or whatever their department issue firearm is). Any other gun is 'different'. I have some friends that are cops and I've seen their unfamiliarity with my Sigs, etc. Add the stress of a situation where they feel they need to disarm someone, etc. and bad things can happen.

If you want, I can find the video of a deputy having a negligent discharge while another officer is cuffing a suspect on the ground. The ND came with a few inches of making the suspect or other officer have a very bad day. And this was with their duty weapon.

We'll just have to disagree about the "many" part because I can only imagine a few cases where handling a firearm is safer than leaving it holstered.

[Guest Red5]

If you want, I can find the video of a deputy having a negligent discharge while another officer is cuffing a suspect on the ground.

Why don't we, just for fun.

[Mike.357]

First off let me firmly plant my feet in the " there is no right to carry a gun in TN" camp.

Second, I will inform the cop if I ever get pulled over carrying as it seems there is a pretty good chance that the cop will like it and let me go without a ticket. It's a no brainer.

[CQB Elite]

Maybe you need to check current Supreme Court rulings.

In MacDonald v. Chicago, SCOTUS affirmed the right to OWN firearms as incorporated to the 2nd amendment while they commented that the right to carry firearms is not currently held as a constitutionally protected right. You tell me that in TN carrying a loaded firearm isn't a privilege; you must be granted permission to do so by the state.

You can have all the opinions you want, but it ain't going to change these facts.

Well said!

[CQB Elite]

All pistols do have the same basic principles. Most of us on this forum would have no problem safely handling any number of weapons.

The issue, to me, is that not all cops (probably not most cops) are 'gun guys'. They train with, carry, and shoot Glocks (or whatever their department issue firearm is). Any other gun is 'different'. I have some friends that are cops and I've seen their unfamiliarity with my Sigs, etc. Add the stress of a situation where they feel they need to disarm someone, etc. and bad things can happen.

If you want, I can find the video of a deputy having a negligent discharge while another officer is cuffing a suspect on the ground. The ND came with a few inches of making the suspect or other officer have a very bad day. And this was with their duty weapon.

We'll just have to disagree about the "many" part because I can only imagine a few cases where handling a firearm is safer than leaving it holstered.

It ain't just the police. I had 30 people in my HCP class. I'd say there were 25 of them that have no business owning a firearm let alone carrying it. They passed the class so they'll get a permit.

As a former LEO and certified LEO Firearms Instructor I can tell you that odds are a HCP holder's weapon is safer in my hands than theirs...

[southernasylum]

Over the years I've probably been pulled over 6 or 7 times while carrying in both Tn and Ky. I always informed the officer I was carrying and only remember being disarmed once.

My vehicle and I matched the description of a hit and run. I was pulled over by an undercover car and surrounded by 4 more cruisers. They all got out with weapons drawn on me before the one who pulled me over even came to my vehicle. After I gave him my license and HCP I was asked to exit the vehicle and disarmed. I was spread eagle over the hood of my truck and frisked. After questioning me about where I was coming from and running my info I was released and my gun was returned unloaded. The whole incident took probably 20 minutes from the time I parked. I wouldn't say the officer was polite but he was nice enough once they found out that I was not who they were looking for. The worst part is I parked right in front of my house when I was pulled over because I just arrived home when he turned on the lights. While being frisked I looked up to see my wife holding our new baby just home from the hospital that morning along with my mom, mother in law, wifes grandmother and my sister watching me get patted down. My wife just slowly shook her head and closed the curtains. She had been waiting for me to rescue her from all the family visitors. It was about 6pm in November so it was already dark and the place was lit up with 5 police vehicles.

All of the other times that I remember I was treaty respectfully and only recently received my first speeding ticket. In every incident, even when I was disarmed, everyone went home safely! I still inform.

-southernasylum

[bubbadavis]

As a former LEO and certified LEO Firearms Instructor I can tell you that odds are a HCP holder's weapon is safer in my hands than theirs...

The question isn't whose hand its safer in: the holstered weapon is safer than when anyone handles it. Guns don't fire when undisturbed.

[Guest DanE479]

We'll just have to disagree about the "many" part because I can only imagine a few cases where handling a firearm is safer than leaving it holstered.

If you haven't ever been a police officer, then it's no suprise that you can only imagine a few cases.

I can think of about 100 cases right now, and probably get to the 1000 mark in 10 minutes.

In the case of the video posted, it was a clear situation of improper firearms handling and piss poor tactics on the covering officer's part. Without knowing the individual involved, there could be training issues as well.

Regardless, the root cause of the ND was hte officer not keeping his bogger picker off the bang part of the gun. NO mre, No less.