Cracker Barrel - No Open Carry

[RobertNashville]

There are two assumptions supporting that argument that don't hold...

My assumptions area fine.

You of course are free to disagree with me all you want but Cracker Barrel number nerds can run the numbers and the numbers say that the buying power of ALL HCP holders in Tennessee* is minuscule compared to that of the general population - if they want to know what group they can piss off and lose the least consequential piece of their business you need only look in the mirror to see who that is.

And by the way, I'm not remaining silent...I ate my breakfast at Cracker Barrel this morning and I personally thanked the manager that Cracker Barrel has not banned all carry...I also sent an email last night to their investor relations department thanking them for their pro-Second Amendment stand.

* And that's if we all voted with our dollars in one accord which is NEVER going to happen...I mean, hell, half of the "pro-Second Amendment" crowd on this form think that background checks are a good thing despite an overwhelming lack of ANY evidence that they've ever done anything except make it more of a PITA for the law-abiding to buy weapons...I'd be willing to bet that there are some on here who even think that banning high-capacity magazines...I mean clips...errr magazines is a good idea!

Edited April 3, 2011 by RobertNashville

[Guest Overtaker]

My assumptions area fine.

You of course are free to disagree with me all you want but Cracker Barrel number nerds can run the numbers and the numbers say that the buying power of ALL HCP holders in Tennessee* is minuscule compared to that of the general population - if they want to know what group they can piss off and lose the least consequential piece of their business you need only look in the mirror to see who that is.

Irrelevant because in this scenario we are comparing involved (not all, since many will not even know of this policy) HCP holders to a comparably smaller number of complaining diners (not the general population). Additionally, this is a corporate nation-wide blanket policy. It's likely that the complaining patrons aren't even in Tennessee and rather from northern states.

[Guest Silvertip46]

Irrelevant because in this scenario we are comparing involved (not all, since many will not even know of this policy) HCP holders to a comparably smaller number of complaining diners (not the general population). Additionally, this is a corporate nation-wide blanket policy. It's likely that the complaining patrons aren't even in Tennessee and rather from northern states.

+1. Well said.

[RobertNashville]

Irrelevant because in this scenario we are comparing involved (not all, since many will not even know of this policy) HCP holders to a comparably smaller number of complaining diners (not the general population). Additionally, this is a corporate nation-wide blanket policy. It's likely that the complaining patrons aren't even in Tennessee and rather from northern states.

Simply calling something "irrelevant" doesn't make it so.

Where exactly do you get all your stats from???

What makes you think the complaints are coming from "norther states" and do you not realize that most states don't even ALLOW open carry (making "banning open carry" and total non issue for most states)?

Whether we are talking Tennessee or any other state that has any carry permit process it doesn't change the simple fact that the total number of private citizens in any state or all states combined who carry a firearm is not even enough to statistically register when compared to the population that doesn't carry. Unless you can show that the majority of actual patrons are carrying then the only reasonable business decision a business like Cracker Barrel could make would be to disallow carry.

So rant and rave at Cracker Barrel all you want but they made both the smart business decision and the RIGHT decision for HCP holders. What you seem to feel is a "loss" is actually a win for both Cracker Barrel and for us.

Edited April 4, 2011 by RobertNashville

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

I look at it like this. I will send letters and emails to all anti gun businesses. But I don't see what CB is doing worng. If someone open carries people see it so they complain but if its canceled no one has anything to complain about. I agree open carry has its place but if a business doesn't want open carry on their property but will allow me to conceal carry, then why should I get upset.

[Guest Silvertip46]

Simply calling something "irrelevant" doesn't make it so.

Where exactly do you get all your stats from???

What makes you think the complaints are coming from "norther states" and do you not realize that most states don't even ALLOW open carry (making "banning open carry" and total non issue for most states)?

Whether we are talking Tennessee or any other state that has any carry permit process it doesn't change the simple fact that the total number of private citizens in any state or all states combined who carry a firearm is not even enough to statistically register when compared to the population that doesn't carry. Unless you can show that the majority of actual patrons are carrying then the only reasonable business decision a business like Cracker Barrel could make would be to disallow carry.

So rant and rave at Cracker Barrel all you want but they made both the smart business decision and the RIGHT decision for HCP holders. What you seem to feel is a "loss" is actually a win for both Cracker Barrel and for us.

Gotta say I agree with this too. Damn. This is hard. I agree that CB handled the situation well, without a doubt. At least "carry" in some form is still allowed, or at least "not DIS allowed"

[Guest kirkosaurus]

Where exactly do you get all your stats from???

What makes you think the complaints are coming from "norther states" and do you not realize that most states don't even ALLOW open carry (making "banning open carry" and total non issue for most states)?

Where exactly do you get your stats from??? MOST states DO allow open carry!

How many states allow open carry?

[DaveTN]

Where exactly do you get your stats from??? MOST states DO allow open carry!

How many states allow open carry?

That map is not a credible source. It shows Tennessee as a green state implying we allow open carry. Open carrying a firearm is a crime in this state. Less than 10% of the population paying for the privilege of carrying a gun should not get us listed as an “Open Carry Stateâ€. How many others states are shown as green because a very small special group can open carry?

[Guest 270win]

When I think of an 'open carry' state, I think of Louisiana or Kentucky, not Tennessee. Those states openly carrying a handgun is a right in the state constitution. Open carry of a firearm is not a right in the TN state constitution like other states and can not be done in TN. Carrying a weapon off your own property is flat out prohibited. TN has honestly pretty strict weapons laws for a Southern state.

Anyone 18 or older can openly carry a firearm in Kentucky on his person in public without any sort of license. People in Louisiana can do the same thing. Folks in both states can also keep loaded firearms in their vehicles without licenses. Tennessee no one has that right.

[RobertNashville]

Where exactly do you get your stats from??? MOST states DO allow open carry!

How many states allow open carry?

I try to get my stats from a variety of sources combined with being a firearms affectionado for about 46 years. No, hat doesn't make my "stats" automatically "right" but if you are implying that I'm simply pulling them out of my back side that's not the case either.

If you truly want to get into the meat of the statistics on this issue then I'd suggest that you...

1. Try to avoid a source with an obvious bent on the subject being discussed (opencarry.org is NOT an objective observer about open carry issues. I'm not saying they are automatically wrong; just not objective)

2. Rather than look at any one third party group of any philosophical bent; I'd suggest a review each state's actual laws on the firearms carry. As DaveTn accurately points out, it is technically illegal to openly carry a firearm in Tennessee; our HCP simply gives us an "exception" to the law; so, while Tennessee isn't openly hostile to open carry I'd hardly call it an "open carry state".

3. The other data that I think must be looked to really know where we stand is to look state by state at how many people actually CAN legally carry (open, concealed and in total) and then look at how many people actually DO carry (open, concealed and in total) - that's the only way to truly know what numbers of people actually carry a firearm on a regular basis an who might be impacted by Cracker Barrel's decision.

[Guest 270win]

Louisiana State Constitution

Section 11. The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.

Kentucky State Constitution

Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.

That is a big difference from TN

“That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.”

TN State Constitutional right to keep and bear arms is pretty weak compared to Louisiana and Kentucky.

[Guest 270win]

The TN legislature is allowed under our state constitution to make all carry illegal in public EXCEPT by just a few people. Honestly I think it stinks. Until our state constitution is changed to mirror a more individually minded rights state, like Louisiana, Arizona, Kentucky, you will always have that problem when the legislature can regulate the 'wearing of arms'.

[Oh Shoot]

That map is not a credible source. It shows Tennessee as a green state implying we allow open carry...

...Try to avoid a source with an obvious bent on the subject being discussed (opencarry.org is NOT an objective observer about open carry issues. I'm not saying they are automatically wrong; just not objective)...

Good Lord, y'all. The OpenCarry.org map referenced here clearly labels the "green" states as "licensed open carry states". If you click further on that, it explains it as "Generally preempted open carry permitted on foot and in vehicles with a license; localities generally preempted."

There are two "higher/better" classifications above that. I'd call that all pretty damn objective myself. How much more precise could they be about it?

- OS

[Guest kirkosaurus]

That map is not a credible source. It shows Tennessee as a green state implying we allow open carry. Open carrying a firearm is a crime in this state. Less than 10% of the population paying for the privilege of carrying a gun should not get us listed as an Open Carry State. How many others states are shown as green because a very small special group can open carry?

Your point of percentage of those that can actually OC is irrelevant to the point. He said most states don't allow open carry. I pointed out that he is incorrect, that most states DO allow open carry. Permit or not only a handful of states actually forbid it.

[RobertNashville]

Louisiana State Constitution

Section 11. The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.

Kentucky State Constitution

Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.

That is a big difference from TN

“That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.â€

TN State Constitutional right to keep and bear arms is pretty weak compared to Louisiana and Kentucky.

I think the major problem with Tennessee's Constitution is not so much the Constitution itself but how the legislature has treated it over the years...somewhere along the line they've stopped actually regulating the "wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime" and substituted the phrase regulating the "wearing of arms" in ways that "sound like a good idea".

With all its faults, I like that fact that in Tennessee I'm not limited to just one handgun nor to one particular registered handgun nor do I suddenly become a criminal if my "concealed" handgun accidentally becomes unconcealed.

Tennessee's firearms aren't perfect by a long shot but we've got it much better than many other states AND we are still working to improve things here!

If everyone here on this forum (who aren't already a member, especially the more "vocal" folks to who post our rights in Tennessee) joined the TFA and put some of their money where their postings are, we'd likely get more accomplished and more quickly. Just my $0.02

[Guest kirkosaurus]

If you truly want to get into the meat of the statistics on this issue then I'd suggest that you...

1. Try to avoid a source with an obvious bent on the subject being discussed (opencarry.org is NOT an objective observer about open carry issues. I'm not saying they are automatically wrong; just not objective)

Well, if you had taken the time to actually read the link I posted you would see that this information was taken from other sources which has nothing to do with bias for or against OC.

So I guess you would tell anti-gun people to not get any sources from TGO since we're obviously biased and can't point to facts?

So please, show me the sources you have that show this is incorrect?

[DaveTN]

The TN legislature is allowed under our state constitution to make all carry illegal in public EXCEPT by just a few people. Honestly I think it stinks. Until our state constitution is changed to mirror a more individually minded rights state, like Louisiana, Arizona, Kentucky, you will always have that problem when the legislature can regulate the 'wearing of arms'.

It appears to me to be the same. All three states acknowledge the “right to keepâ€, but not the “right to bearâ€; just as the SCOTUS has ruled.

States can allow you to carry a gun without it being a “rightâ€. I would guess that if you talk to a legislator from one of the four states that have what is commonly referred to as “Constitutional Carryâ€, they might explain that they still control the bearing of arms. They just allow more freedom than other states. Alaska, Vermont, Arizona and Wyoming are doing it right.

I would like to see Tennessee added to this very short lis tof states that allow carry. That has been proposed and as a group we should be acting on it.

[Oh Shoot]

...It appears to me to be the same. All three states acknowledge the “right to keep”, but not the “right to bear”; just as the SCOTUS has ruled....

Nope. KY and LA acknowledge right to bear openly, just not concealed.

While I admit this still "infringes" some, it is at least in the same spirit as the great American frontier days. Concealed guns weren't thought of as very manly back then; only yellow bellies and women concealed little sneaky guns.

It would be a vastly different country if at least half the folks walked around with a big ole six shooter on their hip. KY and LA still allow that under their constitutions as a right you so correctly say TN denies.

- OS

[DaveTN]

Well, if you had taken the time to actually read the link I posted you would see that this information was taken from other sources which has nothing to do with bias for or against OC.

So I guess you would tell anti-gun people to not get any sources from TGO since we're obviously biased and can't point to facts?

So please, show me the sources you have that show this is incorrect?

You mean living in this state, knowing the laws and having an HCP isn’t enough? We need an internet link?

[RobertNashville]

Well, if you had taken the time to actually read the link I posted you would see that this information was taken from other sources such as gunlaws.us which has nothing to do with bias for or against OC.

So please, show me the sources you have that show this is incorrect?

I'll work on that.

In the meantime, understand that Frankly, I don't really care if EVERY state allowed open carry because that isn't the point...the POINT is that a small percentage of private citizens actually carry a firearm on a daily basis (open, concealed or up their ass) when compared to the population of each state and all states combined. Therefore, Cracker Barrel's decision was the RIGHT business* decision and the fact that they didn't forbid all carry (when they easily could have) is a WIN FOR US.

* Even including all potential legal firearm carriers is a gift when trying to determine the significance of the firearm carrying population compared to the whole population because I'd be willing to wager a sizable amount of $$$ that if you took a scientific poll; you would fine that a pretty hefty percentage of TN HCP holders who can legally carry aren't even carrying right now and may not regularly carry at all.

[Guest 270win]

Yes, in Louisiana it is a constitutional right to openly carry a weapon in public. It is not a right to CONCEAL a weapon on the person. The state considers your automobile, as a part of this constitutional right, your home and you may keep a weapon anywhere in your automobile also. That is big difference from Tennessee. An automobile on school property in Louisiana is not a violation of their 'no guns on school property law' because your car is constitutionally protected so to speak down there.

Tennessee is weak compared to Louisiana when it comes to constitutionally protected firearms rights. Tennessee the state may give or take. Lousiana any adult may have. Or if an adult wants to conceal outside his property/automobile/or jacket he pays money to the state or parish. That is a vastly different concept.

[Guest 270win]

What TN needs is a change in the State Constitutional RKBA to a more strongly worded individual right.

[JAB]

To me, the bottom line is that we are still 100% legal and welcome to carry (concealed) at Cracker Barrel despite apparent complaints from antis. I call that a win and a very reasonable decision on the part of Cracker Barrel. Sure, maybe they didn't take the stand of risking losing business and $$$ based on a very small (insignificant, I'd say) number of customers/potential customers who insist on OC only and refuse to cover their firearm while they eat chicken and dumplings but for the vast majority of legal carriers this was a good compromise.

Hell, I sometimes carry a Ruger P95 OWB in a belt slide holster right on my hip with only an unbuttoned shirt covering it. I have carried that way in Cracker Barrel both before and after this policy came about. In fact, I have carried that way in many places (where carry is not prohibited) and have not had anyone make a negative comment or even mention it. Not one, single time. A gun doesn't have to be jammed down your pants halfway to your knee or hidden in a secret pocket in your jacket to be concealed.

Edited April 4, 2011 by JAB

[Guest tngw1500se]

Last time I ate there the corn sucked. If you can screw up corn, you can screw up anything, so I'm not surprised!

[JAB]

Last time I ate there the corn sucked. If you can screw up corn, you can screw up anything, so I'm not surprised!

Honestly, I am not crazy about their food, either. The boneless, fried chicken breasts on Sundays are pretty good and some of their breakfast is okay but generally I grew up on 'country cooking' and would say that just about anyone's grandma in the South could kick the hell out of Cracker Barrel's food any day. Heck, I can cook that sort of thing better than they can. Still, some members of my family like eating there and my sister in law does work there. Further, I appreciate that they didn't just take the easy way out and prohibit carry, period. I will support them from time to time if for that reason, only.