Gas storage limit ???- fire codes

[enfield]

I don't think that kerosene deteriorates, but a can of it will gather condensation. The water will pool in the bottom of the container and is quite obvious. Kerosene with water in it will ruin the wick in a kerosene heater. Coleman fuel is naptha, and I've always been told that you can't substitute unleaded gas for Coleman fuel unless the appliance was designed for it. I have a dual fuel Coleman lantern that I've always used unleaded in, and a couple of older lanterns that are Coleman fuel only.

I wouldn't keep 10-12 gallons of gas in the basement of MY house, iffen I had a basement.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I don't think that kerosene deteriorates, but a can of it will gather condensation. The water will pool in the bottom of the container and is quite obvious. Kerosene with water in it will ruin the wick in a kerosene heater. Coleman fuel is naptha, and I've always been told that you can't substitute unleaded gas for Coleman fuel unless the appliance was designed for it. I have a dual fuel Coleman lantern that I've always used unleaded in, and a couple of older lanterns that are Coleman fuel only.

Thanks Enfield

Yes my coleman camp stoves are dual-fuel, but maybe they still make some models that are not dual-fuel. Dunno.

I use those plastic 5 gallon fuel containers. Red for gas, blue for kerosene. Keep em under the tarp to keep sunlight UV from aging the plastic and keep rain off em. It is in a shaded hollow so not much sun gets down there and it doesn't get real hot in the summer. Maybe its not a great idea. Seemed like a good idea at the time. The area is fenced so somebody would have to be seriously trespassing with lots of time on their hands and nothing better to do, to mess with em.

Didn't know that water is likely to get in those plastic fuel containers.

[pitt2magic]

There is a product called PRI-G that is an excellent gas treatment. If you have a sealed container and annually treat your gas the self life is almost endless. They make a version for gasoline and another (PRI-D)that treats both kerosene and diesel. Since proof is in the pudding, last month my brother in law who introduced me to PRI-G decided to rotate a 55 gallon barrel of fuel that he bought for Y2K. He has treated it annually for 11 years. He ran his Durango to near empty and filled it with only the old gas, he filled his lawnmower with only the old gas. He ran out the tanks in both without a sputter from either. That is proof enough for me. I treat everything with PRI-G, it removes many of the negatives of using ethanol gasoline. I try to never run anything but pure gas in my motorcycles but if i get stuck using 10% ethanol I always treat it first.

Edited March 25, 2011 by pitt2magic

[Guest ochretoe]

If you are looking for generator only fuel concider going to a propane generator. Propane stores for ever. I have even thought about converting my old Bronco to propane so I can have fuel for both in an emergency. You can also do duel fuel propane/ gas for generators and older cars.

[Guest nashvegas]

There is a product called PRI-G that is an excellent gas treatment.

Where do you get PRI-G?

[pitt2magic]

Where do you get PRI-G?

If you Google it you will get multiple places that sell it. I have always gotten it from my brother in law, i emailed him about it today but havent heard back yet. Its not cheap but you use so little to treat the gas that it last a really long time.

[broylz]

i have a coleman backpacking stove that ive had sitting in my garage with the same fuel in it for at least 12 years and i start it up once a year at least just to ensure it still lights. it has never failed me. i guess i should pour it out and put fresh fuel in it sometime.

i store 35 gallons of unleaded and 15 gallons of kerosene in my garage. it is not attached to my house so i guess its ok. i also keep 3 spare propane grill tanks. would be pretty interesting if it ever catches fire, God forbid. i rotate my gas through my truck at a 5 gallon can per month so the oldest one is 7 months old. i dont treat it but have never had a problem. the kerosene has been done at around 5 gallons per year when i burn it out in the garage while im working on something in the winter.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Been thinking about it some more.

For future reference, here are two earlier TGO gas storage threads though they all say about the same thing--

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/survival-preparedness/26531-long-term-gasoline-storage.html

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/survival-preparedness/28505-long-term-gas-storage.html

====

Was looking at some 15 to 30 gallon tanks but don't want to get a trailer to bolt it to.

This metal 15 gallon tank is about $100 but unless bolted to a trailer or pickup would probably need bolting somewhere a little away from the house in some kind of primitive shelter for shade, and mounted high enough to easily use gravity to get the gas out.

Blitz Professional Fuel Station — 15-Gallon Capacity, Model# 11055 | Fuel Caddies | Northern Tool + Equipment

That tank weighs about 30 pounds empty (unless the shipping box is incredibly heavy) and gasoline weighs about 6 pounds per gallon, so the full tank would weigh about 120 pounds. If not bolted to a trailer or truck probably best permanently mounted somewhere and then fill it 5 gallons at a time from smaller cans? One could routinely rotate gas by tapping 5 gallons old gas out to the car before adding a fresh-bought 5 gallons from a can.

There are plastic 15 gallon wheeled caddies at about the same price but want to steer clear from more plastic gas containers. I have a few old 5 gal plastic gas cans that look worn and ready to fail just from sitting in the shade for years. Then there are the nice expensive metal caddies that might make sense for a contractor or farmer.

====

So maybe it would be overall better to keep 3 or 6 metal five gallon cans? Store em in a locked shed away from the house. I have a rubbermaid lockable trunk as Enfield mentioned, sitting on the wood deck in the fenced back woods, about 50 feet from the house and at least 10 feet lower elevation than the house. If it got a bad leak the gas would flow away from the house. Wonder if a rubbermaid plastic trunk would get too hot to be ideal for storing gas cans, if the sun hits the trunk a few hours a day? The deck is partially shaded but gets some sun.

I got one of these 5 gal metal jerry cans recently which appears built pretty good. In addition to the cheap plastic filler, the metal can comes with another completely sealed recessed sturdy rubber-gasketed metal cap which the instructions say are required for safe transport and storage. Uses the same threads as a 55 gal drum bung hole. Might gradually buy a few more of these cans.

Blitz EnviroFlo Plus Gas Can — 5-Gallon Capacity, Metal, Model# 81733 | Fuel Cans | Northern Tool + Equipment

====

But then there is this style of metal "safety can"--

Justrite AccuFlow Type II Safety Fuel Can — 5-Gallon, Red, Model# 7250130 | Fuel Cans | Northern Tool + Equipment

They claim this can won't leak gas if it overturns and has pressure venting if too much pressure builds up inside the can.

How much of an issue is pressure venting for long term storage? That above-mentioned jerry can is designed to store/transport tight sealed with no venting at all. Would that be a bad thing?

Assuming that completely sealed long term storage is not a deal-breaker, the round metal safety can looks great for daily use but maybe it is overkill for simple storage with occasional rotation? Or maybe a few safety cans would be better than a few jerry cans?

Thanks for any ideas.

[Mike]

http://www.pinzgauer.com/showdetails.php?cat=surplus&partno=SAV1100U

I store diesel fuel in these. I picked up quite a few of them when they were cheaper. They seal up tight, no vents, no stupid "child-proofing" nonsense. They pour easily and the only thing that they will ever need in a new gasket a long way down the road. Gaskets are easy to stock up on and are super inexpensive. I have PRI-D in the ones put up for storage and straight diesel for the four I carry in my truck.

Looks like these are all they have in stock right now.

Swiss Army Vehicles - Fuel Can

Mike

Edited September 1, 2011 by Mike

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Thanks Mike that is an interesting website.

Never had a can with a cap-latch as on that Swiss Army Vehicles jerry can. In the picture the cap and latch looks heavy-built. Is that a standard latch as found on all the old military jerry cans or does the design vary by date and manufacturer?

Except for the latch, that SAV can looks virtually identical to the Northern Tool Blitz jerry can. The Northern Tools website claims the Blitz can is Made In USA. The example I bought seems rugged but maybe the old "real deal" has a lot more metal in it? Have you ever had the opportunity to compare a modern-made can like the Blitz to the old surplus jerry cans?

Am only wondering because after shipping, the surplus can would be very close to the cost of the Northern Tools Blitz can. If the only advantage of the older can is a more-convenient cap compared to the Blitz screw-on metal cap, then buying a new made-in-usa can for about the same money might help somebody stay employed at Blitz? Either design of cap would seem about the same for a long-term storage can?

But if the build quality of the old cans puts the new cans to shame, then it would seem worthy to buy the old cans for about the same money?

Thanks!

[Mike]

From what I've seen the screw on caps vs the latch is the only difference. But it is a big one. I have several of the screw in lid cans as well, I've had nothing but problems with them. The spout they offer on the website is expensive, but it will empty the whole can in about a minute. It also has a screw in debris screen. The only problem with it is that it is too big to fit in a gasoline cars fill hole. It's geared more towards diesel and equipment fill caps.

The best argument I have for them is that you don't have to use the "child-proof" spouts. I've spilled more gasoline with those than I ever did with the old style regular spouts.

Mike

Edited September 2, 2011 by Mike

[Guest kcb37]

I have parked a couple cars for a year to a year and half and restarted and ran them with no problems. No stabilizer of any sort.

Now all that being said gas is not supposed to last that long. Depending on the equipment you have it may be a little more picky.

I have a 14 gal gas can in my garage. Has a pump attached will syphon or gravity feed and is completely sealed. Also has wheels on the bottom. It is plastic though.

I use it for my riding mower, and push mower. Really don't have anything else to use it for. But when I do fill it I rotate it into the wifes car to keep it fresh. Fill it and keep it full or empty it into a car and fill it your not going to spend any more. Just the first fill.

Regardless of what you get, I think rotation is the key. Try to keep it as fresh as you can.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Thanks Mike and kcb37

I have an older pump/siphon that is a couple pieces of clear hose with a bycycle-pump-looking thang in the middle. Have used it a few times and it works OK except the plastic tube is "curly" and sometimes wants to flop out of a can or gas tank. Recently got one of those $30 pump/siphons which look like a Mattel toy gas station nozzle. Haven't played with it a lot. Seems to work OK unless it is subject to premature breakage. Was thinking if it works OK maybe set it up to quickly mount on the jerry cans. 5 gallons isn't incredibly heavy but is heavy enough for a clumsy person to spill gas. Small-volume fill-ups such as generator or power tools.

On the other hand, for fueling a vehicle, the whole 5 gallons usually goes into the vehicle in one shot? Maybe an excellent spout would be better than a fancy siphon hose for emergency filling vehicles? Its not like you would typically be worried about stopping the gas flow from a 5 gallon can, to prevent an empty vehicle's 20+ gallon fuel tank overflowing? I guess the object would be to get the gas in there as easy and fast as possible without spilling it everywhere? Have only rarely used a gas can to fuel a car or truck. Not something you do very often except for people who do offroading, contracting, farming or emergency work?

Just sayin, I don't daily gas up a generator or chain saw but the generators and power tools always get filled from a gas can. The vehicles virtually always get filled at the gas station. Convenient-filling small tanks would seem higher priority for me.

[Mike]

I have one of these in the truck as well. It works great for siphoning fuel.

SUPER SYPHON Self Priming SUPER SYPHON For Gasoline, Oil, Water, & Aquariums - ORDER NOW

Mike

[Trekbike]

^^^^ Mike, thanks for the link. Looks like that might come in handy at some point.

Just as a heads up to folks that might plan on siphoning fuel from one of your cars to put in another, some cars have anti-siphoning devices.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Mike, you have neat links I'd never have discovered. That Super Syphon appears near-ultimate in simplicity compared to mounting a pump-siphon attachment to a gas can. Not that it is rocket science to screw in a pump-siphon attachment, but seems much simpler just to drop the Super Syphon down into the can and jiggle it a few times.

Wonder if the materials were chosen for chemical-resistance or anti-spark purposes? Not that there is anything wrong with the materials, but for instance unless there is an engineering reason for a copper valve body, wouldn't a brass valve body cost about the same to manufacture and less likely to get dinged up over time? There must be reasons for the materials choices. Just idle curiosity.

====

Might try some of that PRI-G. Have used Stabil for years and I try not to use any gas more than a year old. It is difficult to know if the products really work. As far as I can tell not only is Stabil an effective gas preservative, but Stabil is also an excellent elephant repellant. Ain't been bothered by even a single pesky elephant since using the Stabil!

Many product claims overlap. Have used Gumout Small Engine gas treatment to flush out carburators of small engines and generators. Gumout claims seem to overlap with Stabil or PRI-G. Then there are such as Luca Upper Cylinder Lubricant and Injector Cleaner which makes no claim to increase storage life, but makes the same claims about preventing gunk and carbon buildup out of the fuel system, valves/injectors and cylinders.

The GumOut label says it contains petroleum solvents. The Lucas stuff claims "non-solvent". The Stabil bottle doesn't say one way or t'other. Found this thread discussing it with no conclusions--

Stabil. whats in it??? - Bob Is The Oil Guy

====

Been storing non-ethanol gas. Was pleased with an Echo blower and Echo string trimmer so got a little Echo 14" chainsaw a few years back. I always read every word of manuals. The chainsaw manual said do not use ethanol gas. I should have called experts to verify. But I didn't believe the manual. That was shortly after ethanol gas became near-universal and I reasoned, "surely they wouldn't sell a gadget that you can barely find fuel for."

It only took about five hours to ruin the engine. Before running the chainsaw had got a gallon of fresh (ethanol) gas and added stabil and Echo 2 stroke oil. The repairman said the cylinder was badly scored and accused me of forgetting to put 2 stroke oil in the gas. Maybe it was a product defect or maybe the manual really was serious when it said do not use ethanol gas.

Old dad's neighbor, this year after the spring tornados, bought a new chainsaw to clear some trees and he burned up that new chainsaw on the first day using ethanol gas. He took it back to Home Depot and they did exchange the saw, and told him not to use ethanol gas. I was ashamed to exchange my saw because I had read the manual but then ignored the instructions. It wasn't Echo's fault!

Have used and stored non-ethanol gas since.

Had read that ethanol gas gets worse mileage in cars, but wonder if it depends on the year, make and model? The 2010 jeep wrangler, was thinking maybe the engine might last longer if I feed it non-ethanol gas. If the ethanol gas is hell on wheels for small engines, then it might stand to reason it is at least slightly bad for auto engines?

Have run tanks of standard ethanol gas and also tanks of premium non-ethanol gas in the Wrangler. I don't drive much and need to compare some more to make sure of the results. The jeep's dashboard mileage meter seems to show better mileage on the standard ethanol gas than on the premium non-ethanol gas. Maybe standard non-ethanol gas would have better mileage than the premium non-ethanol gas? Maybe it is an octane thing? But the place I've been buying non-ethanol gas only sells non-ethanol in premium so I need to find some place that sells standard octane non-ethanol gas for further testing.

[Guest nicemac]

I despise ethanol in gasoline. I have seen it ruin any number of fuel pumps and it swells diaphragms in carburetors over long periods of time (years). To top it off, it produces less energy than gasoline. It receives subsidies to give it an unfair advantage in the marketplace and has no place in gasoline. I wish it would disappear as a gasoline additive yesterday.

However, I have used and raced gasoline from 93 to 108 octane and ethanol/ methanol in extremely high-revving two stroke (up to 20,000 RPM) kart engines and have never seen fuel cause scoring in a cylinder. That is a function of lubrication, usually brought about by leaning the mixture out to where the engine runs really good. This lean condition produces high-rpm power but starves the engine for lube and the engine overheats. Lean here means fuel lean, not oil lean. There is a difference and the two are not related. If you run a really lean fuel mixture, you have to increase the ratio of oil in the fuel. 40:1, 50:1 is not enough oil in a high revving engine (but probably OK for a chainsaw or weed eater). Depending on the track and conditions, I ran 20:1 - 32:1 in my racing engines with no loss in power and very little smoke.

I have blended nitro (up to 40%) and Propylene Oxide (10%) into various (otherwise 100%) alcohols and have destroyed pistons, plugs, heads and cylinders nearly every way imaginable, but it was never the fault of the alcohol. If you put the right amount of lube in alcohol (same ratios as gas), you will see no difference in cylinder/piston wear compared to gasoline.

Ethanol in a chainsaw/trimmer/blower, etc… can cause fuel lines and carburetor diaphragms/ gaskets to swell through years of exposure, but it can not cause scoring of the cylinder. Only poor lubrication can cause that.

These days, I buy Stihl equipment and was just talking to a mechanic at a Stihl dealer last week about this very subject. Stihl says ethanol (up to 10%) is fine in their equipment and causes no issues. Still, I steer away from it as I don't like it from an energy perspective. Ethanol robs power from gasoline.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Thanks for the good info, nicemac. Am ignorant of engines as of most things. The only rule I broke from the manual was ethanol gas. It was fresh gas with Stabil and the little bottle of Echo oil instructed to mix with 1 gallon of gas. The earlier Echo engines had been run the same way but on non-ethanol gas. I discarded that can of gas+oil after destroying the chainsaw. If it had failed running on non-ethanol gas I would have made warranty claim. I always shake up the gas+oil for about a minute before fueling.

Bought the saw and it sat on the shelf unassembled for a few months before I put it together and used it, so there was a latency between purchase and defect, though it was still under manufacturer warranty. It ran fine the first couple of hour-usages. Then it got hard to start the third use. The fourth and fifth uses I had to take off the starter cord and use a long screwdriver for leverage to "un freeze" the piston and then it would run OK but increasingly temperamental. Then it wouldn't run at all.

Maybe a bad engine. Maybe bad gas or bad oil. Dunno. I don't want to repeat the experience. That was back in 2007 or 2008. Dad's neighbor had about the same experience with a new chainsaw this spring, which the store blamed on ethanol gas. Dunno what brand of chainsaw dad's neighbor burned up that was blamed on ethanol gas.

[Guest nicemac]

If you were having to use a screw driver to "un freeze" the piston that soon in the life of the engine, most likely one of two things happened:

1. You had a manufacturing defect. The clearance was too small between the piston and the cylinder.

2. The engine was run without oil for a short amount of time. Maybe when the dealer set it up before you bought it. Maybe you inadvertently did it. Dunno.

Ethanol, for all of it's faults, does not cause this type of issue. Ethanol has been common in most brands of gasoline since the mid 90s. This is not new…

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If you were having to use a screw driver to "un freeze" the piston that soon in the life of the engine, most likely one of two things happened:

1. You had a manufacturing defect. The clearance was too small between the piston and the cylinder.

2. The engine was run without oil for a short amount of time. Maybe when the dealer set it up before you bought it. Maybe you inadvertently did it. Dunno.

Ethanol, for all of it's faults, does not cause this type of issue. Ethanol has been common in most brands of gasoline since the mid 90s. This is not new…

Thanks nicemac

Apologies belaboring the issue. Need to learn enough so it doesn't happen again. The saw was disassembled factory-fresh in the box when I bought it. The manual said to run it a few hours on factory settings then adjust the carb. Web references and manuals say not to use old gas. Maybe my "fresh gas" from the station was already too old? The saw ran its entire short life on the same "fresh" gallon can of gas. I bought a new can and new gas and new oil to run the saw. The previous ancient McCulloch chainsaw ran on 20:1 and my previous 50:1 gas was too old. Just bought all new to save time.

When the saw got so it would turn over hot but freeze when cold-- Asked my tree man who advised that new engines can sometimes get stiff from too-good compression when cold, which is why I waited til it was totally hosed before taking it to get checked. Thought maybe it just need more breaking-in. The other engines had just run so good.

The "lean mix" you mention may be a possibility if the engine wasn't defective from the factory? Found some links saying that ethanol gas can score cylinders from too-lean settings. That carbs should be readjusted to run on ethanol gas. That is something I never would have thought about. My other two echo tools have run forever trouble free (a few times per year). I've not adjusted carb, changed spark plug, nothing except clean the carb filter. They still run great. Just flip the ON switch and yank the cord a couple of times and they are good to go.

Here is one sample link about a burned-out saw--

Small Engines (Lawn Mowers, etc.): chainsaw burnout, ethanol fuel, lean mixture

50 to 1 mix Ratio in your Stihl 365 is correct. The ole saying of if a little is good a lot is better is WRONG in todays newer saws that recommend 50:1 Ratio. People who add more oil then the manufacturer recommends actually cause all kinds of problems by doing so. Excessive smoking, slow throttle response, plugged exhaust screens just to name a few. ... I dont know if you had oil in your gas or not. But if you did and the service center is saying you did not the reason for their diagnoses is because the failure looks like a lack of lubrication failure. ... This is an easy mistake to make when diagnosing a two cycle failure, but they should know how to test the fuel that was in your unit for an oil/gas mixture ... There are two other things that can cause a failure that looks like lack of lubrication ... Is the saw relatively new? If so you may have an air leak. ... Do you have Ethanol in your fuel? How much? Ethanol in the bottom of your fuel tank will get sucked into the carb/cylinder first and burns much hotter then gasoline. ... This failure generally has scoring all around the piston. Scoring on the exhaust side indicates lean mixture via an air leak or no oil in the gas.

====

I do light cutting with a battery pole chainsaw and a battery chainsaw. They work great for small stuff. More convenient than messing with a gas saw. Last year wife took it upon herself to buy me a 14" Makita saw assembled and tested by one of the good local dealers. Maybe I would have got a Stihl or whatever but Makita tools have a decent reputation and it was easier to keep the Makita than risk hurting wife's feelings. The label says Germany, unless it comes from China via Germany. Haven't had the need to use it til now. Need to cut up a big dropped limb. After burning up the Echo saw am somewhat nervous about burning up another one.

The Makita manual also says No Ethanol Gas. The manual says to use 50:1 if using Makita High-Performance Oil, and use 40:1 if using any other brand of oil. Looks like every company sells their pet "high performance oil". Which would seem a scam except for the fact of the occasional burned-up engine. I have some Stihl "high performance oil". Wonder if I should follow the Makita manual and mix it 40:1?

[dlm37015]

years ago when i built my house i put in 2 underground tanks for farm fuel dont think you could get a permit for that now

[Guest nicemac]

If the Makita manual says 40:1, that is what I would use. That way, if you have a warranty issue, you can say you have done your due diligence regarding lube.

As I stated, I am no fan of Ethanol. While it has its issues (primarily lower BTU per unit), it will not cause premature cylinder wear. A lean condition can, but only because lubrication is reduced when the mixture is leaned out. An engine lean enough to seize up will exhibit symptoms long before it seizes. When you rapidly go full throttle, it will hesitate or bog before building RPM. That is a symptom of lean. If you pull the plug (having a new plug helps) after a few minutes of high-RPM use, it will look white or chalky and the electrode my have a blue tinge (from heat) to it if the engine is too lean. A carburetor that is properly adjusted will cause the spark plug to have a tan/ brown residue on the insulator (about the color of a good biscuit). Reading the plug is the surest way to determine carb adjustment on any two-stroke.

If you have the mixture correct and use any commercial, non-contaminated two stroke oil in the recommended ratio, you will not have seizures of premature wear unless there is a defect in a component in the engine to begin with.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Thanks for the good advice, nicemac. Will try pulling the plug after the Makita's shakeout voyage and see what it looks like.

The engines in my echo string trimmer and blower look about the same as the engine in the failed echo chainsaw. Reckon more damands are placed on the engine in a chainsaw role? It is easy to find tales of burned-up chainsaw, snowblower, snowmobile or jetski on the internet. Not so much for leaf blowers or string trimmers. Maybe some applications put less load on the engine even at high rpm's? Posing less risk to the innards if the carb isn't quite adjusted right, or if the oil mix ain't quite right, or if the gas might be old and partially separated?

It is good to know some symptoms to look for. Thanks for the info. Can't remember well, but the doomed echo chainsaw may have been a little sluggish to come up to speed when squeezing the throttle. May be remembering wrong but it may be that the trigger needed a gradual squeeze to keep it from stalling and requiring a re-start.

[Guest nicemac]

Chainsaws have much more load on the engine than a blower. The blower essentially free wheels. A chainsaw can have great stress while cutting, especially if the chain is not sharp. If the engine RPM are reduced while cutting, that is load. Force is applied to the cylinder walls by the piston and if lubrication is not adequate, metal to metal contact wears the softer of the two–the aluminum piston. The aluminum smears onto the cylinder wall, reducing clearance until finally there is not enough clearance to move and the engine seizes.