39-17-1309 - Carrying weapons on school property

[Guest member4873]

I cannot figure out how to interpret the below, and I cannot post this in the “Firearms Law FAQ†listing. I am an engineer, not a lawyer. I volunteer at local high working with science students. I am confused by Tennessee "39-17-1309 - Carrying weapons on school property" (text below) since two of what I presume are subsections seem to be contradictory.

I have a current Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit. I keep my gun in a holster in my glove-box of my car.

May I drive the car onto the high school campus and park it there with the gun in the car, and left in the car, unhandled while on the campus?

I am specifically concerned about subsections ( and © of 39-17-1309. Does © apply to the entire law, i.e., the entire part, and override ( or are ( and © independent? The last sentence of ©(1) is, "It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property."

Thanks

= = =

39-17-1309. Carrying weapons on school property. —

(a) As used in this section, “weapon of like kind†includes razors and razor blades, except those used solely for personal shaving, and any sharp pointed or edged instrument, except unaltered nail files and clips and tools used solely for preparation of food, instruction and maintenance.

( (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any firearm, explosive, explosive weapon, bowie knife, hawk bill knife, ice pick, dagger, slingshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, knuckles or any other weapon of like kind, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

(2) A violation of this subsection ( is a Class E felony.

© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

(2) A violation of this subsection © is a Class B misdemeanor.

(d) (1) Each chief administrator of a public or private school shall display in prominent locations about the school a sign, at least six inches (6²) high and fourteen inches (14²) wide, stating:

FELONY. STATE LAW PRESCRIBES A MAXIMUM PENALTY OF SIX (6) YEARS IMPRISONMENT AND A FINE NOT TO EXCEED THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($3,000) FOR CARRYING WEAPONS ON SCHOOL PROPERTY.

(2) As used in this subsection (d), “prominent locations about a school†includes, but is not limited to, sports arenas, gymnasiums, stadiums and cafeterias.

(e) The provisions of subsections ( and © do not apply to the following persons:

(1) Persons employed in the army, air force, navy, coast guard or marine service of the United States or any member of the Tennessee national guard when in discharge of their official duties and acting under orders requiring them to carry arms or weapons;

(2) Civil officers of the United States in the discharge of their official duties;

(3) Officers and soldiers of the militia and the national guard when called into actual service;

(4) Officers of the state, or of any county, city or town, charged with the enforcement of the laws of the state, when in the discharge of their official duties;

(5) Any pupils who are members of the reserve officers training corps or pupils enrolled in a course of instruction or members of a club or team, and who are required to carry arms or weapons in the discharge of their official class or team duties;

(6) Any private police employed by the administration or board of trustees of any public or private institution of higher education in the discharge of their duties; and

(7) Any registered security guard/officer who meets the requirements of title 62, chapter 35, and who is discharging the officer's official duties.

[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1; 1990, ch. 1029, § 8; 1991, ch. 510, §§ 1-3; 1996, ch. 1009, § 24.]

[TLRMADE]

I'm no expert.

I believe that as long as you are not enrolled in any school anywhere, you are able to leave your gun in your car. I believe this is for parents who carry and have to drop off or pick up their kids from school.

Somebody else can probably put it in more legal and defining terms.

[Fourtyfive]

It is my understanding that yes , left in the parked car , it is legal.

[Jonnin]

from this part:

It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

I would say you may leave it in the car safely if you dont play with it and stuff.

I am no expert either though.

[Oh Shoot]

This should be in Handgun Carry and Self Defense, I'd say, but anyway:

There are two almost identical paragraphs in that statute, the only difference being the first one mentions other weapons and "going armed". There is no allowance for handgun in vehicle there.

The second paragraph does not mention "intent to go armed" and allows the handgun in car.

Thus, it has often been opined (and I tend to agree), that this means an UNLOADED gun, which is about the only way a gun can be possessed in TN without intent to go armed.

- OS

[Pain103]

If the weapon stays in your vehicle you should be fine. I would not remove the firearm and re holster while on school property to avoid any issues.

[Guest ummechengr]

To add another level of complication:

My wife has her HCP. She is an elementary school teacher in West TN. Therefore she is a "non-student adult". I have a lock-box for both her vehicle and mine to store our weapons when not allowed in certain establishments. When I store my weapon, I remove the magazine (does this constitute unloaded and therefore remove the "intent to go armed"?) and place them together in the same box. She, however, carries a revolver.

Based on this interpretation, it seems reasonable that she could drive onto the parking lot armed. Remove the weapon from it's holster, remove the bullets from the weapon, and store them in the lock-box during the day. At the conclusion of the school day, return to her vehicle, reload and rearm.

Thoughts? Issues?

[vontar]

Her employee hand book probably has a rule for employees to not have firearms on school grounds/or and parking lot.

[Oh Shoot]

...

Thoughts? Issues?

Yeah, the issue in her case is that it's probably grounds for termination should she ever be found out, permit or not, loaded or not.

No TCA statute prevents an employer from banning firearms on its property, or firing you for violating that rule.

- OS

[Guest ummechengr]

Granted. I appreciate the quick feedback. I figured this was the case, but was hoping some of you had a different insight. No big deal.

[Guest member4873]

I asked my state representative about this issue. He consulted someone in the state legal department, and responded.

The response was that the law is confusing and contradictory. The current interpretation is that if the vehicle is to be left unattended on school property, any firearm in the vehicle must be unloaded and stored (not necessarily locked in a separate container, i.e., the glove box would do) before driving onto school property. That is, the firearm may not be handled in any way while the vehicle is on school property, even for a drop-off or pick-up, where you do not leave the vehicle.

I got another opinion from an NRA instructor who is a Tennessee attorney. He said that when he personally is going to drive onto school property with a semi-automatic pistol in his vehicle, he separates magazine and cartridges and stores them in separate places in the vehicle. Then he separates the frame from the barrel and stores those in yet further separate places in the vehicle. For a revolver the cartridges and gun itself are stored separately. All of this is done before driving onto school property.

The object of all of this is to be able to show that you did not "go with the intent to be armed".

I have decided to just leave my firearm at home when I plan to go to a school and park vs. just driving onto property for a drop-off / pick-up, since in these hypersensitive times, it seems to me that depending on who was encountered, one's intent would matter little if a firearm was found in the car, and since a random search of vehicles is apparently allowed, even without an probable cause.

The state representative said that the law is a hodgepodge because there were some versions on the books before general legal carry was allowed in Tennessee, and that the laws were amended rather than being rewritten.

The government is out to control us since "they" do not trust us to control ourselves.

Good luck.

[TMF]

and since a random search of vehicles is apparently allowed, even without an probable cause.

?

Who has this authority to search my vehicle without probable cause?

[Guest member4873]

I know that it does not seem to make sense, but "probable cause" in the 4th amendment is just a bunch of nice words any more. The school that I regularly visit has a sign posted that says, "All packages and vehicles on school property are subject to search at any time".

If it was imposed one may win on 4th amendment grounds in court, but not after a terrific expense. Thus, I unhappily leave my firearm at home when visiting a school.

[vontar]

sadly the 4th amendment is dying slowly in the country.

[jtmaze]

Unloaded in car is the only legal way to carry on school property, according to my carry permit class.

[Guest nysos]

Someone may be able to clarify, but in my conceal carry course - my instructor went over this in detail. It may be his take on it, I am not sure.

Pretty much he said to us, at least, that if you are dropping a student off or picking them up - then you can stay armed as long as you remain in the vehicle and the weapon remains in your position and is not being handled. You cannot disarm and leave the weapon in the vehicle unattended while on school grounds.

Law is clear as mud. I am not sure what the definite answer is, but that is what I was taught. I go to school systems all the time for work, but I am not allowed to carry even at work - so that isn't much of an issue for me. Yet, I go there all the time with a knife clipped to my pocket plainly visible, and within my tool bag I have a box cutter and spare razor blades for it to boot. Even my screwdrivers could be used as weapons, but I am allowed to carry those onto school property right? Heck, even the cafeteria's kitchen probably has a number of kitchen knives, those are weapons are they?

I hate bureaucratic jargon.

[TMF]

I know that it does not seem to make sense, but "probable cause" in the 4th amendment is just a bunch of nice words any more. The school that I regularly visit has a sign posted that says, "All packages and vehicles on school property are subject to search at any time".

If it was imposed one may win on 4th amendment grounds in court, but not after a terrific expense. Thus, I unhappily leave my firearm at home when visiting a school.

I agree with leaving it at home when dropping off; better safe than sorry. I just don't see myself letting someone search my vehicle no matter what the circumstances without my permission, I don't care what some sign says.