Tennessee's defiant illegal aliens

[Guest BungieCord]

I could be wrong but this seemed the most apt forum for this topic.

I have to tell you I'm somewhat conflicted about the illegal alien problem. The porous border with Mexico definitely represents a threat to US security and sovereignty but can you imagine the impact on the US economy if all the illegal Mexicans aliens were suddenly to vanish? Remember when the construction on the Titan's stadium slowed to a crawl because they kept being raided and all the illegal construction workers hauled off?

Anyway, I walked into a gas station yesterday and saw a baseball cap being sold that had this emblazoned on it:

ESTAMOS AQUI

y no nos vamos

It reads, in Spanish, "We're here ...and we're not leaving."

The intent, I think, is quite clear. Pretty brazen, if you ask me.

[LagerHead]

It just shows that they have the political backing to be so brazen. They know that it's the truth and there's basically nothing we can do about it.

[Defender]

It just shows that they have the political backing to be so brazen. They know that it's the truth and there's basically nothing we can do about it.

Nothing we WILL do about it, maybe. We COULD do plenty, if we had backbone. I work in the employment industry and I see much of the problem first hand. I think the problem is multifaceted and requires some sacrifices to fix. Secured borders, mass deportations of ilegals already here are necessary, and a sharp decrease in the number of legal immigrants also, but another component required is to stop or drastically decrease the numbers of people we allow to get a free ride on our tax dollars. Drawing unemployment for 2 years, food stamps, welfare, housing, SS disability benefits, etc...are so liberal that a large number of unemployed are simply not seeking work. I know this doesnt apply to all, but believe me, it does to a significant portion of our unemployed. Stop these benefits and these people will have to work and will fill the void left by the exodus of the illegals. It's not an overnight fix, and it will hurt for a bit, but it will work. We managed to do just fine without all of these immigrants for all those years when the gravy train was not as liberal as it is now.

[Guest KimberChick]

How'd you know dude was illegal from that? Maybe brown dude was wearing it because he was tired of everyone assuming he was, lol. I'd bet my Tennessee-born grandmother is less documented for citizenship purposes than most of the brown folks you see during the day. Its the ones you don't see that are laying low and generally have no papers.

We've got so many natural born citizens who know nothing but life on the dole, so to speak, that we can't afford to lose immigrant labor...legal or otherwise. If we could deport the generational welfare recipients and the "I'm an addict and I get more SS(D)I than your grandparents" and just keep the gainfully employed illegals, I'd be happy. It'd kill two birds with one stone. Effectively end widespread welfare and create a larger tax base. We'll take their immigrants who want to work, put them on the tax rolls but they get to take our lazy non-contributors instead!

[Jax970]

Imagine all of the jobs that would be created if all of the illegals left!!

[RobertNashville]

All illegal aliens should be gone...PERIOD.

Easiest way is to truly start enforcing the laws against hiring an illegal...perp-walk a few CEO's/business owners on the 6PM news and I'd bet you would see the jobs drying up...no jobs and I'd be they'll leave on their own (just like they came here on their own).

Yes; there would be a significant impact...much less strain on social services, school systems, less crime, less drunk driving, more employment for real citizens.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Moral relativism. They need to be gone. It doesn't matter who they were born from, except that it was from illegals.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jonnin]

At this point I am for a compromise. Close the border, and amnesty the ones already here. I think both sides could live with that.

If I were from mexico and lived in poverty, you can bet I would be trying to get here too. I cannot blame them one bit for what they do. The only real thing I have against them, by and large, is the downright refusal to learn at least "working" english. Yes, I know the issues, but at this point the compromise I listed is one of the only things I see that would really, actually work. Trying to round them up and send them home is like trying to empty the ocean with a teaspoon, and would cost billions and accomplish little --- esp with the border so insecure. It would cost us less in the long run to just let the ones here stay. Closing the border must be done regardless -- its only a matter of time before terrorists convert some mexicans to radical islam and send them over to do mischief. If we cannot catch Jose the fruit picker, we have no chance to prevent a major disaster when the guy slipping across the border is, ironically, Jesus Mohammad or whatever name he takes when he becomes an extremist...

[RobertNashville]

At this point I am for a compromise. Close the border, and amnesty the ones already here. I think both sides could live with that.

If I were from mexico and lived in poverty, you can bet I would be trying to get here too. I cannot blame them one bit for what they do. The only real thing I have against them, by and large, is the downright refusal to learn at least "working" english. Yes, I know the issues, but at this point the compromise I listed is one of the only things I see that would really, actually work. Trying to round them up and send them home is like trying to empty the ocean with a teaspoon, and would cost billions and accomplish little --- esp with the border so insecure. It would cost us less in the long run to just let the ones here stay. Closing the border must be done regardless -- its only a matter of time before terrorists convert some mexicans to radical islam and send them over to do mischief. If we cannot catch Jose the fruit picker, we have no chance to prevent a major disaster when the guy slipping across the border is, ironically, Jesus Mohammad or whatever name he takes when he becomes an extremist...

We already tried the amnesty and close the borders - it failed...all we got were a lot of illegals who were suddenly made "legal" while those who were trying to follow the law got screwed.

This isn't about whether their wanting to be here is understandable; it is.

Of course the border has to be secured.

We don't have to "round up" anyone; if they have no work here...no income...no social services to depend on...they'll go home on their own (as well they should).

These people may be "nice" people...they may be "good workers"...they may be all that and more but they are first and foremost, criminals...they are criminals by coming here...they are criminals by staying here and they are criminals by working here (and that doesn't even touch the crimes they commit like robbery, rape, drunken driving, and even worse)...the "cost" is in letting them be here and stay here.

Either we are a nation of laws or not...a nation is defined by its language, by its culture and by its borders if we aren't going to maintain them then we don't have a "country"; we are simply occupying land - if we continue to tolerate the presence of millions of illegals then all the angst and talk bout "Second Amendment Rights" and the "Constitution" is nothing but dust in the wind.

[Dolomite_supafly]

How'd you know dude was illegal from that? Maybe brown dude was wearing it because he was tired of everyone assuming he was, lol. I'd bet my Tennessee-born grandmother is less documented for citizenship purposes than most of the brown folks you see during the day. Its the ones you don't see that are laying low and generally have no papers.

We've got so many natural born citizens who know nothing but life on the dole, so to speak, that we can't afford to lose immigrant labor...legal or otherwise. If we could deport the generational welfare recipients and the "I'm an addict and I get more SS(D)I than your grandparents" and just keep the gainfully employed illegals, I'd be happy. It'd kill two birds with one stone. Effectively end widespread welfare and create a larger tax base. We'll take their immigrants who want to work, put them on the tax rolls but they get to take our lazy non-contributors instead!

Go back and read the post. No one was wearing a cap, brown. black or white. It was a cap for sale.

As far as illegals go they should be deported, along with that any children who were born here to illegal parents. By default the child should take the citizenship of the illegal parents. Now if the immigrant parents are here legally then by all means allow them to stay and the child is an American citizen. We should not reward illegals who are only coming here to have an anchor baby so they can stay. We also need to bill the county of origin for every illegal we have to transport, house feed or heal. Take the money out of the funding that we are no doubt sending them. Once a country looses millions of our suport dollars because they allow their citizens to illegally enter our country they will begin to do something to secure their borders as well.

Why should we pay to help their country maintain a certain standard of living only to have their citizens come and bilk our country. Kind of like staying in an apartment and having the landlord pay you for staying there, which is ridiculous.

As far as employers go they should also be fined substantially for using illegals.

The main reason, in my eyes that is, why nothing is being done is money. Not money being made by the employers but by the federal government. Say we have 1,000,000 illegals here working under false documents. Now do you think those illegals are going to file their income tax returns at the end of the year, I think not. Now imagine each worker would be getting back $500 if they did file. That is $500,000,000 the feds can use without giving back to the states who are having to pay most of the costs related to the support of the illegals. That may not seem like a lot in the scheme of things but it probably is enough to look the other way in some instances. I suspect there are a lot more than 1,000,000 working under false documents and I suspect their refunds are more than $500 but you get the picture. Add to this that any money given by the feds doesn't include the illegals the states are supporting because the illegals are unlikely to take part in any census. Some states end up with a disproportionately large percentage of illegals but do not receive the funding for the additional drain on their services.

Dolomite

[strickj]

These conversations always make me chuckle.

There are no jobs in Mexico and living conditions are horrible. There are jobs here and living conditions are good. It will always be this way. Always.

Even with the fantasy that we can take their jobs.... they will remain here, even if they have no money, as conditions in the US are better then in Mexico.

Seems pretty easy to see to me :\

[RobertNashville]

These conversations always make me chuckle.

There are no jobs in Mexico and living conditions are horrible. There are jobs here and living conditions are good. It will always be this way. Always.

Even with the fantasy that we can take their jobs.... they will remain here, even if they have no money, as conditions in the US are better then in Mexico.

Seems pretty easy to see to me :\

It hasn't always been that way nor does it have to stay that way; only our country's lack of balls to address the problem allows it to continue.

[strickj]

It hasn't always been that way nor does it have to stay that way; only our country's lack of balls to address the problem allows it to continue.

How did our "lack of balls" create the Mexico that we have today?

[RobertNashville]

How did our "lack of balls" create the Mexico that we have today?

I didn't mean it that way...we aren't responsible for Mexico, Mexicans are responsible for what's happened and is happening in Mexico.

Our lack of balls is inrefusing to deal with the problem.

[strickj]

I didn't mean it that way...we aren't responsible for Mexico, Mexicans are responsible for what's happened and is happening in Mexico.

Our lack of balls is inrefusing to deal with the problem.

I know you didn't mean it that way.

My point was, as long as Mexico is a 3-world **** hole, we are going to have an immigration problem and there's nothing we can do about that. Well, short of making this country worse then Mexico, which may very well happen :\

Put up a fence? They'll go over it(plane), under it(tunnels) and around it(water).

Take their jobs? It's illegal for businesses to employ illegals now. In the fantasy world where no buisness hires them, they will still find work from people wanting their yards cut for 10 dollars.

Round them up and send them home? How do you track millions of people that are untraceable?

May not agree with or like what I'm saying, but it's the sad reality of it.

[RobertNashville]

I know you didn't mean it that way.

My point was, as long as Mexico is a 3-world **** hole, we are going to have an immigration problem and there's nothing we can do about that. Well, short of making this country worse then Mexico, which may very well happen :\

Put up a fence? They'll go over it(plane), under it(tunnels) and around it(water).

Take their jobs? It's illegal for businesses to employ illegals now. In the fantasy world where no buisness hires them, they will still find work from people wanting their yards cut for 10 dollars.

Round them up and send them home? How do you track millions of people that are untraceable?

May not agree with or like what I'm saying, but it's the sad reality of it.

I disagree...we can solve it; we just won't...we have to be willing to do what has to be done.

I'm not saying it's easy or inexpensive but it absolutely CAN be done.

[JAB]

Moral relativism. They need to be gone. It doesn't matter who they were born from, except that it was from illegals.

This.

If I were from mexico and lived in poverty, you can bet I would be trying to get here too. I cannot blame them one bit for what they do.

With all due respect, Jonnin, if I were born in the inner city, grew up in the ghetto and lived in poverty then I might just join a gang and sell crack to try and survive, too - but that doesn't mean that I don't blame those that do so for doing it. Illegal immigrants are breaking our laws by simply coming here. If they are willing to break that law constantly, every day for the rest of their lives then how much respect could they possibly have for our other laws or our society as a whole? The refusal to learn 'working' English is simply another manifestation of that disrespect. Some folks seem to think that they should come here illegally, stay here illegally, work illegally, get paid illegally (and under the table) and that we should cater to them by printing everything in their language (whatever language that may be - illegals aren't only from south of the border) so that they do not have to learn the predominant language spoken in our society.

I enjoy being around people from different cultures and applaud those who do what is necessary to come here legally. Any kind of amnesty program for criminals who are breaking the law by the very fact that they are here, in my opinion (and the opinion of at least some legal immigrants I have known) is a slap in the face to those who have come to this country the right way.

[Links2k]

All illegal aliens should be gone...PERIOD.

Easiest way is to truly start enforcing the laws against hiring an illegal...perp-walk a few CEO's/business owners on the 6PM news and I'd bet you would see the jobs drying up...no jobs and I'd be they'll leave on their own (just like they came here on their own).

Yes; there would be a significant impact...much less strain on social services, school systems, less crime, less drunk driving, more employment for real citizens.

This would be a very good start. I was reading the business section of the local paper today and noticed photo of the hispanic men working on the hospital in Bartlett. I wondered about their status and about how many people might be losing jobs if they are illegal.

If they are legal I am happy that they can maintain employment in this economy.

[mikegideon]

Let me start by saying that I have nothing against Mexican immigrants. I have found that a lot of them are hard working, family oriented folks. When it comes to family, we may even learn a thing or two.

With that said, I am sick and tired of criminals of all types. We have too many of them. Mexico has always been a third world :poop:hole. We weren't covered up with them until recent years. Our tolerance for everything just keeps getting bigger, until we have turned into one huge vagina. When are we going to punish the criminals severely enough that it goes the other way? I don't care if they had a crappy childhood.

And while I'm whining... when are we gonna start shooting the damn pirates? It's what they deserve.

Edited March 22, 2011 by mikegideon

[Guest 6.8 AR]

When you have a situation(illegals, welfare, etc) that

is at a certain plateau and you accept it as a norm,

your thought process is in trouble. If it gets worse

and nothing gets done and a little while later you

accept a new norm you have a serious problem.

It's not something you can stick your head in a stump

and wish it away. Moral relativism is what's killing

our country and it needs to be recognized by all and

has to be stopped. If you give up on this illegal alien

problem we will be the third world country. Sad

realities can go to the devil, strickj. They have to be

changed. Put up the fence, send them on their way

and put employers that hire them in jail. Damn, there

used to be something called "justice". Only way to

fix it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mikegideon]

When you have a situation(illegals, welfare, etc) that

is at a certain plateau and you accept it as a norm,

your thought process is in trouble. If it gets worse

and nothing gets done and a little while later you

accept a new norm you have a serious problem.

It's not something you can stick your head in a stump

and wish it away. Moral relativism is what's killing

our country and it needs to be recognized by all and

has to be stopped. If you give up on this illegal alien

problem we will be the third world country. Sad

realities can go to the devil, strickj. They have to be

changed. Put up the fence, send them on their way

and put employers that hire them in jail. Damn, there

used to be something called "justice". Only way to

fix it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Basically what I was trying to say. You did a better job, 'cause I was pissed

[strickj]

Originally Posted by 6.8 AR

When you have a situation(illegals, welfare, etc) that

is at a certain plateau and you accept it as a norm,

your thought process is in trouble. If it gets worse

and nothing gets done and a little while later you

accept a new norm you have a serious problem.

It's not something you can stick your head in a stump

and wish it away. Moral relativism is what's killing

our country and it needs to be recognized by all and

has to be stopped. If you give up on this illegal alien

problem we will be the third world country. Sad

realities can go to the devil, strickj. They have to be

changed. Put up the fence, send them on their way

and put employers that hire them in jail. Damn, there

used to be something called "justice". Only way to

fix it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, over time, things change and new norms fall into place. We, as Americans, started out by hating Germans. That was before this was even a country. Over time, we have hated the Irish, the Chinese, etc. and as of today, the Mexicans.

There has always been a good reason for it... but things changed and we evolved. In a few years, we will find another group to dislike. The only thing new here is the times.

As far as building a fence and jailing employers... see my last post.

A fence will only stop them from coming in by foot over land. They will still get here by air, by water, and by underground tunnels. Not to mention smuggling by vehicle.

And there's not much you can do to keep them from getting employment from people looking to get their yards cut for $10, or to get their decks built for $5 an hour.

But, I know I'm gonna loose this debate because of the hard right atmosphere so I'm outy

[USMCJG]

I work in the construction industry and have more than my fair share of experience with illegals. Here are a few things I have learned from those that I have run across(bear in mind that these statements relate to those that I have met and may not be an accurate overall assessment):

It is MUCH, MUCH easier to get in to the United States illegally than it is to get in to Mexico. Mexico takes the defense of their southern border seriously. You DO NOT want to get caught coming in to Mexico from Guatemala or Belize.

Most illegals DO NOT want to be US citizens on a permanent basis. They want to earn enough money(usually tax free) to provide for their families in their native countries and to save up enough money to return to said countries and live the good life. Perhaps 1 in 10 that I have talked to intend to live the remainders of their lives as "Americans". Even the ones who are US citizens almost universally identify themselves as Mexicans, Chileans, Hondurans, Argentinians, etc., and not as Americans. And they plan to return to their native countries eventually.

You DO NOT have to be a US citizen to get a job and pay taxes. It is very easy for an illegal alien to get a Taxpayer ID(iTIN) number. An iTIN is easy to get. Just apply and the US government will give you one. The government really doesn't care if you are legal or not, as long as you are paying taxes. Of course, companies that pay under the table don't even need to worry about an iTIN.

You might not believe it, but immigrants typically DO NOT make significantly less than the average American for the same work. An illegal can make just as much as a citizen for doing the same job. It's generally NOT that companies hire immigrants because they are significantly cheaper. It's because they want to work and don't mind doing hard work that most Americans think is beneath them.

What can we do to fix it?

Seal up the borders. This is a no-brainer. Without sealing the border, nothing we do will make even the slightest bit of difference.

Crack down HARD on companies that hire known illegals and pay under the table. I don't really have a problem with anyone who is willing to go out and earn their way WHILE ALSO paying their taxes like everyone else.

Teach our own younger generations that there is no shame in actually WORKING for a living. Quite frankly the immigrants, illegal or not, will typically outwork our younger people(under 30) 4 to 1. They work harder, they are more reliable, and they don't whine and cry whenever they don't get their way. The entitlement attitude of our younger people is a very serious problem.

Quit providing illegals with free schools and other social programs. IMO, the school system should be privatized anyway but that's a whole other discussion.

JMHO

[Spook]

Yes, over time, things change and new norms fall into place. We, as Americans, started out by hating Germans. That was before this was even a country. Over time, we have hated the Irish, the Chinese, etc. and as of today, the Mexicans.

There has always been a good reason for it... but things changed and we evolved. In a few years, we will find another group to dislike. The only thing new here is the times.

As far as building a fence and jailing employers... see my last post.

A fence will only stop them from coming in by foot over land. They will still get here by air, by water, and by underground tunnels. Not to mention smuggling by vehicle.

And there's not much you can do to keep them from getting employment from people looking to get their yards cut for $10, or to get their decks built for $5 an hour.

But, I know I'm gonna loose this debate because of the hard right atmosphere so I'm outy

You "loose" (try lose) the debate because you have a weak argument. We didn't all hate Germans, Chinese or anyone else for no reason. It sounds like you would simply let anyone enter illlegally. We simply need to enforce current laws. If we did alot of our problems in this area would go away. I for one am willing to pay a little more for lettuce and strawberries to bolster the integrity of our country. By not enforcing the immigration laws for everyone we denigrate (lessen) them for everyone else who has followed the legal path. What does this say to all the folks who have stood in visa lines around the world and entered the U.S. according to U.S. law.

We are slowly losing our own sovereignty.

[TSprint1]

A country that can not control it's borders is no longer a country but a place for mobs. Can't control

our borders? Can't never accomplished anything.......but we surely can't if we lack the will to do so.