New DVD, "Lessons from the Street"

[Guest Tom Givens]

Rangemaster now offers a professionally produced DVD entitled “Lessons from the Streetâ€. This is a lecture over an hour long by Tom Givens, giving a detailed debriefing of ten shooting incidents involving Rangemaster students. After the debriefs, there is a discussion of trends and observations.

This is an opportunity to see what actually happens in private citizen self defense shootings. Your choice of equipment and your training should reflect the realities of armed confrontations involving CCW. This DVD is only $14.95 plus $2.00 shipping. To order yours, call 901-370-5600.

[Guest DanE479]

Not to be an ass, but I think in order to promote or sell you own product here you must be a supporting vendor. I'd contact the Admins here if I were you.

Now, for the nitty gritty:

Of those 10 shootings, how many of your students were criminally charged, how many were sued, and did you provide any legal support?

What is useable from these scenarios?

What benefits would someone get by buying your DVD versus paying for actual training time?

DO you have a website that gives your credentials and experience?

THis time, I'm not sorry to sound like an ass. An advertisement for a DVD should be more than what you provided.

[mikegideon]

I think most folks know who Tom is. He has plenty of credentials. Can't comment on the vendor thing.

[Guest DanE479]

I was unaware of him. Others might be as well. As a discriminating consumer, I am unimpressed by his advertisement. Too much hype, not enough solid information, and no website for further data.

I am always skeptical of hype, and have an annoying tendancy to call it out...

[mikegideon]

I didn't take it that way, but I'm aware of the product, and was aware that a bunch of his students had been involved in shootings. I'm sure there was no harm intended.

[Guest DanE479]

I wonder if it's necessarily a good thing to advertise that a number of your students have been in shootings... This guy is one of the first trainers that I have seen that actively promotes this fact. It could speak either things good or things bad about the mindset of students coming out of the class... I'm not criticizing, merely pondering...

[mikegideon]

It's Memphis

[Guest DanE479]

That would explain things a little... Im' too busy to look into this guy right now via googling and web searches, so the lack of a web link is hurting him...

[Guest goomba]

rangemaster

He is worth taking the time to 'look him up'

[Guest Tom Givens]

DanE-

I'm sorry if my post offended you. I put this notice under Training because it is a training issue. I'm not selling a gun or a gadget, but offering information that can be useful to those who choose to go armed.

Rangemaster has trained approximately 33,000 students since 1996 here in Memphis, plus a number on the road all over the US. With that many students in a high crime area like Memphis, it is inevitable that some of our students find themselves put to the test.

Over the past 15 years, we have had 56 students that I know of have to use their guns in self defense (that's an average of about 4 per year). All 56 won their encounter. To the best of my knowledge, 2 students were murdered after taking training with us-- both were unarmed when they were killed in street robberies.

We have had 2 students criminally charged after a shooting. Both were dead wrong and should have been charged. Both got diversion and did no prison time. Not one student has been sued in civil court over a shooting.

I was asked a couple of years ago to do a presentation on some student involved shootings at the National Tactical Invitational in Harrisburg, PA. I did, and response from the training community led to offering the lecture in DVD format so that those who can't attend a class with me can get the information. The DVD is not offered in place of training-- anyone who knows anything about me knows I am a huge proponent of in-person hands-on training for anyone, private citizen or LE who carries a gun. I don't think you can buy much in-person training for $14.95, though.

As someone else posted, my credentials can be seen at RANGEMASTER - Proven techniques, tactics, and thinking for the real world. .

If the mod's feel this post is inappropriate, they can certainly delete it. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over this, as I just don't have the time.

[Guest DanE479]

Thanks for the info.

I feel bad about my original post but it just seemed to me to be a "Drive by advertisement." I had not heard of you before, and I am immediately skeptical about training DVD's, so it was a perfect storm (and I had seen the exact same ad on two other forums that I visit).

I'll check out your website and maybe get some training in with you guys.

[eapking]

Not to be an ass, but I think in order to promote or sell you own product here you must be a supporting vendor. I'd contact the Admins here if I were you.

Now, for the nitty gritty:

Of those 10 shootings, how many of your students were criminally charged, how many were sued, and did you provide any legal support?

What is useable from these scenarios?

What benefits would someone get by buying your DVD versus paying for actual training time?

DO you have a website that gives your credentials and experience?

THis time, I'm not sorry to sound like an ass. An advertisement for a DVD should be more than what you provided.

delete.

Edited March 21, 2011 by eapking
think the point was made.

[Guest Ugrey]

Dan,

I have taken four classes under Tom Givens and I am slated for number five soon. I assure you that you will get more than your moneys worth from Rangemaster and Mr. Givens.

You should feel bad about your first post and be a little slower on the trigger before you jump somebody with no clue as to who they are. We all get to learn this lesson in life, sooner or later.

[Punisher84]

I have had some harsh words about Rangemaster's counter staff in the past, but Tom is one hell of an instructor. I have worked in and around the firearms training environment and know several people who will vouch for Tom and his credentials.

My 2 big questions here are 1.who the **** are you Dan? and 2. How does crow taste?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Wow.....just...wow..

I have taken just about every class Tom offers including both the Instructor and Advanced Instructor classes.And I have been a presenter at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference. And I don't live anywhere near Memphis.....

I have seen that lecture on student involved shootings both at NTI (when he first presented it ) and again in a couple of classes and training seminars. In fact I use some points from it in my own class lectures.

What do you get from a DVD? For $14.95 you will get some perspective into what civilian shootings are REALLY like and it may actually help you to make your practice sessions more realistic.

Not knowing WHO Tom is speaks more to the poster's lack of perspective than to Tom's " lack of noteriety"....

People in the know ...know.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Cruel Hand Luke

[mikegideon]

Dan lives in Illinois. Self defense with a weapon is illegal there. I'll be ordering that DVD.

[Guest Sprowse]

Dan lives in Illinois. Self defense with a weapon is illegal there. I'll be ordering that DVD.

Me too.

Funny, when I google Tom Givens, I find lots of info about a credible trainer. All I find when I google DanE 479 is the TGO website.

[daddyo]

I think Dan probably gets the point.

[mikegideon]

I think Dan probably gets the point.

Me too

[Guest DanE479]

Let's take this from a business standpoint:

Tom's post here was the third identical post I had seen him post on three different forums (One of which got deleted because he didn't follow the rules of the forum). As a customer, when someone is trying to sell something, I shoudn't have to google that person or company to find out more info about the person/company. My questions were right on point. I feel even more strongly about this when the subject matter is firearms and training. I've done a lot of training with many reputable organisations and teachers, and I had not come across Tom's name yet. WHen someone advertises a video on self defense shootings, I happen to feel that they should provide more background than just a brief description of the video. THe original post did not introduce Tom, his commpnay, or give even a website link.

AT no point did I ever criticize Tom's school, or call into qustion his credentials, I just requested them. I am a discerning buyer, and I channel my money to people and companies that do not make me do all the research.

Pat Rodgers is a great example of this. I used to be a member of a forum that is now gone. Pat was an actively participating member there and posted threads about upcoming training all the time. Each of his threads contained his website, a course/product description, a breif background of himslef and his company and contact info. He also hung around and jumped in other threads; he didn't just join to advertise. He got to know us, and often spent time explaining things and discussing new ger and tactics. All for free, and in a non-pressure envrionment. That's why I have speant money at EAG.

The short and long of it is this: If you want my money, make me want to spend it, put the time into your advertising and marketing, and make an effort to get to know me. THere's tons of training companies out there that are top notch; competition is stiff...

[G27]

I think Dan probably gets the point.

Me too

Or not.

[Guest DanE479]

Or not.

I got the point about Tom and who he is. Am I not allowed to give constructive criticism?

[mikegideon]

I got the point about Tom and who he is. Am I not allowed to give constructive criticism?

Of course, but I'm not so sure that Tom was really "selling" to begin with. More like offering because it's pretty rare material. Since Tom has trained over 30,000 folks at Rangemaster, he's probably way past marketing fundamentals.

[G27]

I got the point about Tom and who he is. Am I not allowed to give constructive criticism?

You appear to be the ONLY person, probably on all of TGO, who is / was clueless about who Tom Givens is.

I don't speak for him, but maybe, just maybe, Mr. Givens doesn't need marketing help from an anonymous poster he knows nothing about, who might just as well be some competitor just looking for ways to bust his balls over something stupid.

Your ignorance over who Mr. Givens is doesn't give you free reign to crap all over his thread, though you appear to believe otherwise. PM's exist for a reason.

So yah, I'm gonna stick with "you don't 'get it'"...

[Guest btjudge]

How rich can one get at $14.95 a pop??