terminology questions

[Jonnin]

Is the never exceed info in manuals for normal ammo or for +P ammo? Does it assume the round is seated to the min OAL (so if you seat it less deep, is it less potent?).

I am not trying to make super hot rounds (actually the opposite, I just want a paper puncher), but I am having a small aggravation with the auto-powder device on the 380 .. my smallest setting is close to the max charge but I do not seat it quite that deep. I know 380 does not have an official +p but for other rounds, the max load, it was unclear (for future reference).

Finally, the accurate download (pdf) for load data has COL for the overall, and I didnt find anywhere if that was the min or recommended (I have assumed that it is the min, and backed up my loads with several sources of data from other manufacturers) but it would be nice to know. Typically I have split the difference between the COL listed there and the max OAL of the round (well known), and seated it at that point.

Thanks, still a lot to learn here, and still aiming for the weakest ammo that will cycle my guns as best I can until I know a heck of a lot more...

[roverboy]

Your first question about the max loads being normal pressure or +P. It will sometimes state in manuals whether its standard or +P. They are probably safe loads but work up to them. I seat my pistol loads to somewhere in between min. and max. and crimp. With a auto you want good feeding. The Max. cartidge overall length is sometimes the max. in a particular gun, sometimes its not. It may be a good basic length. I would take a factory round and copy it. If a factory round feeds and cycles good, copy it. Just pay close attention to the manuals and be safe.

[gregintenn]

The max loads listed in reloading manuals are arrived at using test guns in labratory conditions; often arrived at using test barrels. The max load approaches maximum SAAMI pressures under the conditions tested there. A lot of varibles can change pressure levels, including chamber dimensions, bore diameter, smoothness of the bore, temperature, etc. Pressures and velocities can vary quite a bit from gun to gun. This is part of the reason people tell you to start at the minimum load and work up from there. Furthermore, below minimum loads can also produce high pressures as well. They can also result in bullets stuck in the barrel.

As for the standard or +p loads, all +p loads will be designated in a reloading manual, as these adhere to a higher pressure level than standard laods. The SAAMI specs for pressure in a given round take several things into consideration, including: case design and strength, and the weakest design and age of guns chambered in such a caliber. Said another way, the data for a 38 Special has to be safe in an antique Saturday Night Special, while still performing in a modern quality arm. AN N frame Smith and Wesson or a Ruger Blackhawk can take a lot more pressure in this round than can a snubnose RG.

To answer your next question regarding overall length, The less volume you leave inside the case, the higher the pressure will be with a given load. THink of it like installing dome pistons in a car engine will cause higher compression. This can be caused by different bullet designs and shapes, what the bullet is made of, as well as OAL of the loaded round. An all copper bullet of the same weight and caliber will be longer than a comparable lead bullet. Seated to the same OAL, thecopper bullet load will produce higher pressures than the lead bullet with the same charge of powder. As well as reduced case capacity, the copper bullet will also have a greater bearing surface going down the barrel, causing more friction, and in turn, even higher pressures.

In closing, there's a lot to consider in reloading. I've barely scratched the surface in variables. Until one gets some experience under his belt, it is advisable to adhere strictly to published reloading data.

[roverboy]

Yeah, Greg did a better job explaining it than me. I agree read your manuals and be careful.

[Jonnin]

Ok. I am reading the manuals, but not everything is said clearly in every document, that was the main point.

If the manuals label +p clearly, then none of the ones I have include that data, there are no markings to that effect. Which is fine, again, I just want some cheap range ammo, I can buy the hard hitting stuff as needed.

If the load data is maxed at the cheapest/weakest firearms, that works too, I suspect my sig is better made than whatever they used. There is no "working" the load for the 380 (another point): its just under the max unless I go to hand weigh each charge (not going to do that) because the auto device is on its lowest setting. That is the amount of powder I am going to get, though I could change brands to weaken it. I feel better about trying one in the gun though, its under max charge (slightly), seated much less deep (relative, haha... small distances here) than the listed minimum (lower pressure) and in a quality firearm. I didnt crimp them, I assume that would increase the pressure slightly (sits in case for longer?)

Thanks for the info, I will try a couple of these to see if they seem usable, and if not, buy a different powder that needs more mass for the same energy. I already hand cycled them and they feed fine, so its really just a question of how stout they really are.

Being as careful with it as I know how to be!

[gregintenn]

You'll want to crimp any ammo loaded for a semi automatic pistol, so the bullet won't be set back into the case while working through the magazine and into the action. As far as min and max, you'll just have to see what operates your gun correctly. Too weak a load might not work the slide. Too long or too short and they may not fit in the mag or feed properly. The 380 you used for an example probably won't have a lot of variance between minimum and maximum. Also, a very small variation in powder charge is a pretty good jump percentage wise. Unless you are very comfortable with the accuracy and repeatibility of your powder measure, you might just want to weigh each charge. To be honest, I don't load for semi autos for two reasons: 1) Some can be very picky about the load and 2)I'm too lazy to scour the ground searching for brass. I buy ammo for them, and save my reloading efforts for rifles and revolvers.

[LngRngShtr]

Keep in mind going BELOW posted data is sometimes as hazardous as going ABOVE..

Some powders don't like lots of air space.. WW 296 comes to mind.. pressures spike... KBoom no bueno.

John

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If having trouble getting the powder measure to drop a small enough charge, then if may be beneficial to look for another suitable powder that has a heavier recommended load?

380 ACP Load Data - Handloads.Com

For instance on this chart, Blue Dot looks like the biggest charge weight.

I haven't loaded a lot of .380, but 3.2 gr W231 with 90 gr XTP seemed to work my gun fine, but it is a very light load. Hardly any powder at all. The Dillon powder measure didn't have any trouble dropping that light a load, but if the powder measure is giving you trouble, then maybe it would be easier to drop up to a max of 6 gr blue dot rather than only a max of about 3 or 4 gr with most of the other powders?

Power Pistol seems the next-heaviest load after Blue Dot.

There doesn't seem to be a factory recommended load for Trail Boss in .380. Here is a message from a fellow who managed not to blow himself up just filling the case with Trail Boss. It is a very light fluffy powder and he claimed that a .380 case full of Trail Boss only weighed 2.8 grains.

Handloads.Com Forum: Fun with Trail Boss in 380

[Jonnin]

You'll want to crimp any ammo loaded for a semi automatic pistol, so the bullet won't be set back into the case while working through the magazine and into the action. As far as min and max, you'll just have to see what operates your gun correctly. Too weak a load might not work the slide. Too long or too short and they may not fit in the mag or feed properly. The 380 you used for an example probably won't have a lot of variance between minimum and maximum. Also, a very small variation in powder charge is a pretty good jump percentage wise. Unless you are very comfortable with the accuracy and repeatibility of your powder measure, you might just want to weigh each charge. To be honest, I don't load for semi autos for two reasons: 1) Some can be very picky about the load and 2)I'm too lazy to scour the ground searching for brass. I buy ammo for them, and save my reloading efforts for rifles and revolvers.

380 is insanely expensive and worth it to reload. I am not paying $15+ a box and more for that stuff when I can make it for 1/2 that or less. My powder measure has been reliable, I weighed it over and over for a while and it does vary but not by that much. As you said, tenths of grains matter a lot for this round (from memory its about 3.2 to 3.5 grains from min to max) and my measure, over 25 test cases, is 3.3 to 3.4 grains dropped. I have not needed to crimp, so far the bullets I have used have all "bulged" the brass a tiny bit (you can see in the finished rounds where the bullet stops, there is a tiny bulge there at the base of the slug) and I cannot force them in deeper with all my strength and test-cycling them does not budge them a bit. I have kept an eye on that but so far nothing has needed a crimp of any sort (on the easy, straight case semi auto stuff). I think my seating die does a very light crimp but I cannot see it and its unclear if that is doing anything at all (lee dies, ?). I agree with you on the picky ammo issues, thankfully so far the only gun that has been this way was my wife's glock. It wants hot loads and nothing else. The bulk of our guns take anything we throw at them without any issues.

If having trouble getting the powder measure to drop a small enough charge, then if may be beneficial to look for another suitable powder that has a heavier recommended load?

380 ACP Load Data - Handloads.Com

For instance on this chart, Blue Dot looks like the biggest charge weight.

I haven't loaded a lot of .380, but 3.2 gr W231 with 90 gr XTP seemed to work my gun fine, but it is a very light load. Hardly any powder at all. The Dillon powder measure didn't have any trouble dropping that light a load, but if the powder measure is giving you trouble, then maybe it would be easier to drop up to a max of 6 gr blue dot rather than only a max of about 3 or 4 gr with most of the other powders?

Power Pistol seems the next-heaviest load after Blue Dot.

There doesn't seem to be a factory recommended load for Trail Boss in .380. Here is a message from a fellow who managed not to blow himself up just filling the case with Trail Boss. It is a very light fluffy powder and he claimed that a .380 case full of Trail Boss only weighed 2.8 grains.

Handloads.Com Forum: Fun with Trail Boss in 380

That is exactly where I am going next. I was trying accurate #2 because I had a lot of it, but I am going to use that up on the 45 (where it does pretty well) and get something else for the 380 along the lines you suggested. Soon as it is gone (it was free) I will branch out to try other powders to see what works best for various calibers.

--------------------------

Thanks for the tip on air space problems. That was new to me, I am going to go google it to make sure I don't experience it first hand.

The test 380s worked fine, maybe slightly more stout than factory ammo but nothing felt "wrong". A new powder is definately in order for the next batch, just to keep it gentle on the hardware if nothing else.

And thanks again everyone for all the help! If I can make it thru the year without any unintentional explosions, there may be hope for me yet

[gregintenn]

There's another reason to crimp; don't you bell the case mouths? It seems to me that the belled case mouth would want to hang on things while cycling through the gun. I don't mean you need to put a really heavy crimp on it, but you'd at least want to remove the bell from the mouth wouldn't you?

[Jonnin]

There's another reason to crimp; don't you bell the case mouths? It seems to me that the belled case mouth would want to hang on things while cycling through the gun. I don't mean you need to put a really heavy crimp on it, but you'd at least want to remove the bell from the mouth wouldn't you?

It isnt belled after seating. I looked for this too, and while it does do that on my 223 efforts (which I do crimp) it does not on the straight cases. Again, the seating dies claim to crimp as part of their function, and they may be closing the case mouth, I cannot tell. There is no visible crimp at the end of the process though, perhaps that is all the seat-crimp does is close the bell a little bit. I dunno, I am the new guy here, you tell me!

[gregintenn]

Yeah. You can ajust the seating die to where it will crimp and seat all in one operation. That's how I always do it. Souds like you're there.

[Jonnin]

good to know. I have "factory crimp dies" that I have yet to use for most of the calibers, just seems like overkill but I wanted the option. I cannot see the seating die crimp, but the ammo has worked fine and once it works fine and pokes a hole in the paper, I am happy and leave it alone. Later I want to learn to make accurate loads for good groups, but I am taking it slow and soaking up info as fast as I can. If I can get the 223 down, I will feel a lot better, its a lot more difficult, I may ask about it later but want to give it a couple more tries first.

[roverboy]

I think you said you'd shot some of your handloaded rounds and they shot ok right? Well as long as they are feeding good and there's no flattened primers they are probably ok. Another way to see if they may be high pressure is if takes more muscle to resize the cases that you fired. Does your seater die have a taper crimp? Most auto rounds function better with a taper.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

That is exactly where I am going next. I was trying accurate #2 because I had a lot of it, but I am going to use that up on the 45 (where it does pretty well) and get something else for the 380 along the lines you suggested. Soon as it is gone (it was free) I will branch out to try other powders to see what works best for various calibers.

Blue Dot has been used in lots of calibers. But it doesn't seem a real popular "go to" powder nowadays in many or any calibers.

I haven't tried it in anything except .357 mag. It works OK in .357. Have loaded a few thousand blue dot .357's.

Web-searching, people don't seem to like it much for .45 ACP, though it supposedly will work.

If it works for you on .380 then a pound would reload a whole bunch of .380s before the bottle is empty.

The velocity quoted for a blue dot .380 is on the higher end compared to other powders. It burns relatively slow. It might have a pretty good fireball for eye candy. Makes a big fireball in a 4" barrel .357 mag revolver.

[roverboy]

Like Lester said Blue Dot might work good for higher velocity loads. Thats probably what you'd want for a carry load anyway. Some people don't like to use handloads for carry loads though.

[Jonnin]

Other direction! I want a 4 grain starting load powder, roughly, if such exists, so I can go up or down from there to make a wimpy hole punch. Fireballs and thugbusters are exactly what I don't want. I have $50 worth of self defense ammo (less now, I tested some) in case of emergency, which I hope to shoot in 10 years at the range because I never needed it.

[roverboy]

Red Dot, Green Dot, Bullseye, Win. 231, and Unique would all be good for light to thumper loads.

[Dave Shooter]

terminology questions

Is the never exceed info in manuals for normal ammo or for +P ammo? Does it assume the round is seated to the min OAL (so if you seat it less deep, is it less potent?).

One other point on your original question. Most cartiridges do not have a SAMMI +P specification, only one SAMMI max. Cartiridges that DO have SAMMI +P that come to mind are 38 Special, 38 Super and 257 Roberts. I've never heard of a SAMMI spec for +p 380 ACP. Note that some ammo companies sell products marked "+P" for cartridges that there is no SAMMI +P spec for.

[Dave Shooter]

Other direction! I want a 4 grain starting load powder, roughly, if such exists, so I can go up or down from there to make a wimpy hole punch. Fireballs and thugbusters are exactly what I don't want. I have $50 worth of self defense ammo (less now, I tested some) in case of emergency, which I hope to shoot in 10 years at the range because I never needed it.

You've done one of the most important steps. You've identified what you want the ammo to do--reliably function and safely punch holes in the target! Some folks want to match the recoil and impact point of their self defense ammo. Others, for some reason, want the max possible velocity; useful for hunting, unnecessary for paper punching. A chronograph can be a useful tool; if the velocities of your reloads are higher than factory than the pressures may be too.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

A modest dose of blue dot would not necessarily be a thumper round, but I suspect it would have a fireball because it is relatively slow-burning and is known for making fireballs.

I Am not advocating blue dot. It just seems the heaviest weight published load range if the problem is metering light loads.

I'd be tempted to try Trail Boss if metering a low volume is the problem. That would be somewhat "risky" because there is no factory-recommended load, and it is against common wisdom to stray away from factory-recommended loads. But the low density of Trail Boss seems to keep people out of too much overload trouble.

[Jonnin]

You've done one of the most important steps. You've identified what you want the ammo to do--reliably function and safely punch holes in the target! Some folks want to match the recoil and impact point of their self defense ammo. Others, for some reason, want the max possible velocity; useful for hunting, unnecessary for paper punching. A chronograph can be a useful tool; if the velocities of your reloads are higher than factory than the pressures may be too.

Thanks. The +p was unrelated to the 380, was actually a 9mm question tossed into the mix. I finally found an exact load for that one anyway, but the odd bullets took a while to find data for (flat nose hollow based jacketed 124 grain). The early info I found was that those pressure up faster than normal, and the loading data confirmed it (lower than other similar bullets).

A modest dose of blue dot would not necessarily be a thumper round, but I suspect it would have a fireball because it is relatively slow-burning and is known for making fireballs.

I Am not advocating blue dot. It just seems the heaviest weight published load range if the problem is metering light loads.

I'd be tempted to try Trail Boss if metering a low volume is the problem. That would be somewhat "risky" because there is no factory-recommended load, and it is against common wisdom to stray away from factory-recommended loads. But the low density of Trail Boss seems to keep people out of too much overload trouble.

Ok. I may try it. Whatever I get is going to do like 1500 or more rounds per pound, so its going to take me a few days to pick one out, but the blue dot does look good. I dont care if it blows a bit of fire or smoke, its the final energy that I want to regulate. Fire and smoke are cool, so long as that isnt tied to a 5000 FPS bomb... my makarov using russian ammo looks like I am using powder left over from a fireworks shop.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Jonnin

[Dave Shooter]

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

Very interesting stuff. They do have a +p standard for 9mm luger and 45 ACP, but only in 115 and 185 grain respectively.

BTW, I use 2.8 grains Bullseye under a Berry plated bullet for 380 ACP. Had a Dillon powder measure set up that way for 38 Spc w 148 wadcutters. Has been totally reliable in my LCP.