Legal question

[Guest rt_steve]

I went to the range yesterday with a buddy. Before we left, I loaded and holstered three pistols. I guess he felt like he needed to do the same and he loaded and holstered his 1911. Only problem is he is still waiting on his HCP. Rode out to the range with no incident and he put it in it's box for the ride home. Assuming we had been pulled over, would I have faced any issues for being in the car? Would the number of pistols in the truck have put a LEO on edge resulting in us getting intimate with some asphalt?

Side note, it was a public outdoor range with no range officer. Two of the pistols I carried we're for targets, the third stayed concealed, loaded, and easily accessible.

[Guest Red5]

Do you have an HCP?

[Guest nicemac]

The number of pistols aren't the problem. Permits to carry them are. A loaded handgun in the passenger compartment is "carrying". You have to have a permit to do that.

[DaveTN]

I assume by your description you have an HCP. You can carry as many guns as you like. It is illegal for your friend to carry a loaded gun. So if he had it on him he is subject to arrest. But that’s up to the Officer on the scene.

As a former cop I can say that no one could tell if it would cause any problems with the Officer; all cops are different. If you look like responsible adults going to the range, you probably wouldn’t have any problems. If you look like gang bangers coming from a residential burglary; you may have problems.

[Guest rt_steve]

Do you have an HCP?

Yes, for several years now. I've had several tickets since then but always to or from work where I can not carry so never had a gun on when pulled over.

I looked a little rough that day, more redneck than gang banger. My buddy came straight from work in business attire.

[Pain103]

If he didn't have a HCP he should not have been carrying a firearm. If for some reason I was to stop you and there was no indication that you guys were up to no good at most I might just have him unload it or let you hang on to it. Tell him to get his permit there is too many crazy thugs running around these days not to be armed.

[Fallguy]

What it boils down to is possession....who was in possession of the weapons? If any gun was on someone’s person there is no doubt that person is in actual possession. On any weapon in the passenger compartment, it is the constructive possession of anyone that can easily reach it.

As far as what would happen, it is pretty much like DaveTN said...every officer is different, so there is no way to say for sure what would happen.

[Guest 270win]

(a) (1) A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade length exceeding four inches (4²), or a club.

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to be that Tennessee makes it illegal to carry a firearm with intent to use it as a weapon offensive or defensive, as in carrying it as a weapon.

It does not seem to be illegal on the face of this statute to just possess, but it is illegal to possess/carry with intent to carry for offensive/defensive uses.

Now the question is, what was your friend possessing/carrying the firearm for? It seems to be he was shooting targets at the range, not carrying it as a weapon, so all seems legal to me. He has to transport his weapon, and the carrying the firearm from his house to the range is incidental to target shooting.....not for protection/going armed.

Here is a defense to going armed that seems to be helpful for target shooters too.

(4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

This defense doesn't say the gun has to be unloaded when going to and from such activities. Traveling to and from, in my opinion, is 'incident to'.

I'm not a lawyer, I doubt most police know about this stuff real deep, or even prosecutors. But this is my understanding. I'm sure this 'intent to go armed' was meant at one time to be gray to snag people whoever folks didn't like and let most people go when carrying handguns.

[Oh Shoot]

...I'm not a lawyer, I doubt most police know about this stuff real deep, or even prosecutors.[/QUOTE]

I assure you that the primary determination of a gun used for going armed is whether it is loaded or not when NOT sport shooting, hunting, etc. And I don't mean "on the way to or from" such activity.

And, "unloaded" is not defined in TCA as merely having no shells in it, either.

- OS

Edited March 11, 2011 by OhShoot

[Fallguy]

(a) (1) A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade length exceeding four inches (4²), or a club.

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to be that Tennessee makes it illegal to carry a firearm with intent to use it as a weapon offensive or defensive, as in carrying it as a weapon.

It does not seem to be illegal on the face of this statute to just possess, but it is illegal to possess/carry with intent to carry for offensive/defensive uses.

Now the question is, what was your friend possessing/carrying the firearm for? It seems to be he was shooting targets at the range, not carrying it as a weapon, so all seems legal to me. He has to transport his weapon, and the carrying the firearm from his house to the range is incidental to target shooting.....not for protection/going armed.

Here is a defense to going armed that seems to be helpful for target shooters too.

(4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

This defense doesn't say the gun has to be unloaded when going to and from such activities. Traveling to and from, in my opinion, is 'incident to'.

I'm not a lawyer, I doubt most police know about this stuff real deep, or even prosecutors. But this is my understanding. I'm sure this 'intent to go armed' was meant at one time to be gray to snag people whoever folks didn't like and let most people go when carrying handguns.

Where/how exactly do you base "intent to go armed" as meaning for deffensive/offensive purposes? Seems many on here have searched for a legal definition in TN law (case and codified) for the term and haven't come up with anything.

Also my opinion of the "Incident to" meant while actually engaged in the activity, not the before or after. Otherwise how do you know any of those activities has anything to do with the possession? I mean otherwise everyone could just carry a handgun then and say they were on their way to or from the range.

[Just2Honor]

Don't know if this helps but my HCP instructor told us to travel to the range with weapons unloaded, magazine removed, ammo out of the magazine, and place the weapon and mags/ammo in separate parts of our vehicles because we did not have a permit to carry yet. Maybe that would solve the issue for the friend until he gets his HCP.

[Guest rt_steve]

Don't know if this helps but my HCP instructor told us to travel to the range with weapons unloaded, magazine removed, ammo out of the magazine, and place the weapon and mags/ammo in separate parts of our vehicles because we did not have a permit to carry yet. Maybe that would solve the issue for the friend until he gets his HCP.

He didn't do it out of ignorance to the law, he did it out of arrogance and disregard for the law. I just want to make sure I won't face legal troubles for being in the vehicle while he is illegally carrying.

[Oh Shoot]

He didn't do it out of ignorance to the law, he did it out of arrogance and disregard for the law. I just want to make sure I won't face legal troubles for being in the vehicle while he is illegally carrying.

Nah.

Hell, if he'd just toss his heater somewhere on a seat, your HCP would cover it. Unless he wanted to confess.

- OS

[Fallguy]

He didn't do it out of ignorance to the law, he did it out of arrogance and disregard for the law. I just want to make sure I won't face legal troubles for being in the vehicle while he is illegally carrying.

What kind of trouble do you think you would/could face?

As long as you are legal, there shouldn't be any problem for you?

[DaveTN]

He didn't do it out of ignorance to the law, he did it out of arrogance and disregard for the law. I just want to make sure I won't face legal troubles for being in the vehicle while he is illegally carrying.

No, you wouldn’t be in trouble. But he’s putting you on the spot. If you are willing to lie; he doesn’t have a problem. If you are not a liar; he could have a problem.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I tend to forget stuff if I get in a hurry. Got in too much of a hurry to go shooting about a month ago and went to range forgetting the wallet (and HCP). A bag of guns & ammo in the back and a pistol in pocket.

Was packing up to leave the range before noticing I didn't have a wallet. So unloaded the carry pistol and put it in the range bag and drove CAREFULLY home hoping not to get stopped.

Havent had a traffic stop for years, and can't recall the last time forgot the wallet. But was sweating the drive home hoping Murphy wouldn't strike on the one day of forgetfulness.

[Guest 270win]

Tennessee is an 'intent' violation statute when it comes to weapons. Possession is not illegal, the carrying a firearm or knife over four inches with 'intent to go armed' is. Arkansas is very similar in that the 'carrying of a weapon with the purpose to employ it as a weapon against a person' is a misdemeanor.

KENDALL v. STATE.

This is Kendall V State an old TN case. There are references to other cases.

It is squirrelly in that, in theory, you could possess that handgun not as a weapon/intent to go armed but as a paperweight, a prop for pictures. The statute does not on the face make a loaded handgun illegal. Only having it unloaded as a defense to prosecution to 'intent to go armed'. You could still have it unloaded and still have 'intent to go armed' in theory.

What do you intend to do with the handgun? Is it for target shooting? Snakes? Critters? Something you just like to look at as an heirloom? That wouldn't seem to be 'intending to go armed' whether loaded or unloaded.

Now if you have it for self defense, THEN that would be intending to go armed...according to my reading. Whether you have ammo close by or not, having the handgun for offense or defense is still 'intent to go armed'. Now the state adds that basically putting the handgun in the trunk and ammo away from it as a defense separate from the criminal act of 'intent to go armed'.

[Fallguy]

Interesting...

But I'd be willing to wager that unless you are actualy engaged in the "legal activity" or it was EXTREMELY obvious you didn't intend to armed, you may have to "tell it to the judge".

But definetly a good read.

[DaveTN]

Tennessee is an 'intent' violation statute when it comes to weapons. Possession is not illegal, the carrying a firearm or knife over four inches with 'intent to go armed' is.

Don’t let the word “intent†being used in the statute make you think it has some special meaning. Most criminal acts require intent or state of mind. Sure… you can carry without an HCP and think you can argue “I’m on my way to the range.â€, but I’d be willing to bet if it doesn’t satisfy the cop at the scene; it won’t satisfy the court.

It’s a crime to carry a loaded gun in Tennessee without an HCP; it’s just that simple.

Regardless of what 104 year old case law says.

[Guest 270win]

Exactly! Many police will arrest/write citation and let it be sorted out in court. You will need a lawyer to deal with the 'intent to go armed' part with a prosecutor and judge who understands all the case law. I am assuming the prosecutor must prove you 'intended to go armed'. Probably best to keep your mouth shut in traffic incidents!

It is the same way in Arkansas where if the handgun is not being carried 'with a purpose to employ as a weapon against a person' then technically you shouldn't be convicted. Of course if you are caught with a pistol, whether loaded or say in the glovebox with a loaded magazine or maybe even in the trunk, depending on circumstances...you will get arrested/cited. It takes a lawyer to deal with the prosecutor who must prove that you were carrying the handgun 'as a weapon with purpose to employ as a weapon against a person'. Arkansas does have more defenses that are favorable in addition to a gray law, such as 'being on a journey' and 'going to and from hunting'.

[Pain103]

I don't see how Kendell vs State will have any effect on today's statute or conviction in relation to intent to go armed. Different laws and different courts.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

They are ok... but they are bottom of the barrel for AKs. Worth $300 for sure if it runs.

[shirtshirt]

Tennessee is an 'intent' violation statute when it comes to weapons. Possession is not illegal, the carrying a firearm or knife over four inches with 'intent to go armed' is. Arkansas is very similar in that the 'carrying of a weapon with the purpose to employ it as a weapon against a person' is a misdemeanor.

KENDALL v. STATE.

This is Kendall V State an old TN case. There are references to other cases.

It is squirrelly in that, in theory, you could possess that handgun not as a weapon/intent to go armed but as a paperweight, a prop for pictures. The statute does not on the face make a loaded handgun illegal. Only having it unloaded as a defense to prosecution to 'intent to go armed'. You could still have it unloaded and still have 'intent to go armed' in theory.

What do you intend to do with the handgun? Is it for target shooting? Snakes? Critters? Something you just like to look at as an heirloom? That wouldn't seem to be 'intending to go armed' whether loaded or unloaded.

Now if you have it for self defense, THEN that would be intending to go armed...according to my reading. Whether you have ammo close by or not, having the handgun for offense or defense is still 'intent to go armed'. Now the state adds that basically putting the handgun in the trunk and ammo away from it as a defense separate from the criminal act of 'intent to go armed'.

Your reading comprehension needs improvement. This "loophole" you have found does not exist. Citing the case you linked in a court of law to defend carrying without a permit would only delay an inevitable "GUILTY" verdict.

Edited March 15, 2011 by shirtshirt