Tsunami in Japan

[Oh Shoot]

Yup, you are exactly right. If they can get power to the plant ...

Like, nobody in the world could have airlifted big ass diesel generators into there before now to at least drive the pumps?

- OS

[G27]

Can the US ships generate 100v/50Hz power? Us generators? We're not talking about something you'd pick up at Lowes here, I bet these plants require HUGE generators, and most of the large generators I've ever seen are built for one specific voltage and operating frequency...

[Guest mikedwood]

Like, nobody in the world could have airlifted big ass diesel generators into there before now to at least drive the pumps?

- OS

Good question. Seems like they could fly in pumps to match it. Little pumps, big pumps. A Chinock will lift about anything you can dream of.

They have been using police riot canons and fire trucks. Not been very picky so far. So why not any and as many pumps as they can get? Not like it's Haiti and not a pump or generator for 100's of miles. Honda has to have 1000's of each right there. It's Japan for crying out loud.

They probably just simply didn't think of it. Kinda preoccupied.

[Guest bkelm18]

These aren't your normal pumps. The pumps on my ship were ~30 ft tall and a 5 MW (that's 5 mega-watts, or about equivalent to over 1000 of the little generators Lowes sells) steam-turbine generator could only run 2 of them. The plants they are dealing with are much, much larger. It's not as simple as just flying in a generator.

Edited March 17, 2011 by bkelm18

[leroy]

All:______________

RE: The replacement pump and generator thing. OS asked the question about replacement generators and bklem basically answered it along with crimsonauto. The emergency diesel generator sets that the tsunami wave took out were probably about 3300 HP per set (...if i remember right from brown's ferry...) and i think there are 3 sets to run and one spare. That means 10,000 hp is on the line to provide power to the plant for emergency shutdown. Each of these gen-sets are the size of a diesel electric locomotive and are housed in sturdy concrete buildings. My guess is that one of these gen sets weighs 75 to 100 tons each. Each nuclear unit has this same installation.

Package diesel-generator sets just are not big enough to provide the power needed to run the plant equipment. That's why they have the emergency d-g sets built as part of the plant. I understand they brought in several smaller sets to get some of the systems running; but it would probably take a bunch of them to provide the power they need to do everything they need to do. Diesel generator sets have their own set of problems too; we used them on my old job from time to time; and keeping them fueled, serviced, and running 24/7 is a continuing headache. I've seen the little ones 700 hp or so, suck down 200 gallons of fuel an hour under a heavy load. Diesel drive pumps are basically the same problem. You can pump water around with them, but you loose lots of efficiency running the long distances with temporary piping. Fueling and keeping them running is the same headache as with the d-g sets.

All this is why they need the power line tying the plant's back on to the grid. Thet's why they are working so hard to get the line built.

Hope this gives a bit more perspective on the d-g / pump thing.

PS-- If your are inclined to be curious about this d-g thing; go to this link (http://www.americanmachinist.com/Calculators/HorseToKilo.aspx ...) and play with the kw (...1kw is 1000 watts, a megawatt is 1000 kw or one million watts...). Plug in 6000 kw (...that's 6 mw; probably about what the plant systems need to maintain shutdown...). That gives a pretty good perspective on how much power these plants take. The horsepower to kw convertor assumes 100% efficiency. My guess is that the d-g efficiency is on the order of 85%; but i dont know for sure.

leroy

Edited March 17, 2011 by leroy

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Each one is the equivalent of each locomotive I'm operating on a train. That's something on the

order of 200 tons of mass being moved around, anyway. Not something a Chinook could dream

of lifting.

[leroy]

All:_____________

New good news. Looks like they have got one of the emergency diesel generators going. Link here: Progress by on-site workers . Go all the way to the bottom of the article for the info.

leroy

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That's good news, the kind the MSM is neglecting to report.

[Guest bkelm18]

Very good news.

[Guest ArmyVeteran37214]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7skjDBJ9JsA

[Guest mikedwood]

Good points Bk and Leroy, you guys know way more than me for sure.

I'm just saying a Chinook will tote about 20,000 pounds and if a firetruck and a police riot canon will work in a pinch and it looks like the place is right on the ocean. But I have seen articles that mention the 50 workers there are manually pumping water and have been since the begining (I think) I dunno if that means hand pumps or manning smaller generators and as BK and Leroy said it just isn't working.

Really hard to tell if it's getting better or worse. I'm certainly wishing them luck.

I read this morning they are thinking of burying the site.

Alex Jones is saying that there are people that have radiation sickness but I have seen that no where else.

[leroy]

All:_________________

Here is some more relatively good news concening the restoration of power and the on site D-G set. Link here: Fukushima – 18 March morning updates, radiation and tsunamis « BraveNewClimate.

If the plant guys and the transmission line guys can make the tie in they can power the plant systems they need to run back up from the control room and make life a bunch easier for those working on this problem; as it eliminates the gilflirting and changing of piping systems around by hand -- they can do it with a mouse click from the control room. They should also have intertie capability between the indvidual units so they can run the needed equipment and pumps on any other units too.

I know this sounds crazy; but it also allows them to make make-up water. They need it top off the reactor cooling systems and (....idealy...) the fuel pools. The plant uses extremely clean deionized water for all this in normal operation.

It also looks as if the radiation levels from the fuel storage pools are going down. Looks like the water spraying with the fire trucks and helicopter water drops have (...and are...) worked. The more water you add to the pools, the better the shielding and less the radiation. That allows folks to work longer and safer. It will make life easier for all these folks and is a good indicaor that they are finally getting all this multi-faceted nightmare under control.

Keep sending up the prayers that these folks dont fall over or get killed working on this extremely serious bunch of problems.

leroy

[Guest mikedwood]

Nuclear plant chief weeps as Japanese finally admit that radiation leak is serious enough to kill people | Mail Online

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I agree with some of the comments of your article, but not the article. Looked like a bunch of

fearmongering to me. The Mail even missed with some of their captions. They're usually a better

source than that.

[Mike.357]

they have lied about it since the beginning, it goes back to that "face" thing. I am guessing one reactor has melted and the people working there are on suicide missions.

Can't imagine that the helicopter water drops are doing anything at all.

[vontar]

I said it at work the day after, this would be nearly as bad as Chernobyl, and several co workers immediately got on to me no it won't.

It may not be as bad, but it is going to be pretty close.

[vontar]

BTW,

Particles spewed from wrecked Fukushima power station arrive in California

Read more: Nuclear plant chief weeps as Japanese finally admit that radiation leak is serious enough to kill people | Mail Online

Since the particles are detectable in CA now, 7,000 or so over the Ocean, It won't take much longer for them to go 2,000 plus miles to reach us in TN.

Sure they are just particles, it will only be a slight increase to the normal background we are already use to over here.

http://www.scpr.org/programs/airtalk/2011/03/17/radiation-and-weather-patterns/

What will affect weather patterns and the path of radiation coming from Japan?

However, I remember when Particles from Chernobyl where detected in CA as well. I remember News footage when they had a geiger counter measuring some guys tennis shoes.

BTW,

It is now officially on a par with the Three Mile Island accident in Pennsylvania in 1979. Only the explosion at Chernobyl in 1986 has topped the scale

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html#ixzz1GyxPkzUV

How can they say it is only now on par with Three Mile Island? They are talking like they are going to have to bury this like Chernobyl.

Edited March 18, 2011 by vontar

[Guest bkelm18]

they have lied about it since the beginning, it goes back to that "face" thing. I am guessing one reactor has melted and the people working there are on suicide missions.

Can't imagine that the helicopter water drops are doing anything at all.

When you're trying to prevent a core failure, every little bit helps.

[Guest mikedwood]

they have lied about it since the beginning, it goes back to that "face" thing. I am guessing one reactor has melted and the people working there are on suicide missions.

Can't imagine that the helicopter water drops are doing anything at all.

If nothing else a helicopter always looks good for the cameras.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Well, it's not like they designed it for 9.0 earthquake. Or for a wall of water, afterwards.

Calling them liars really is getting with it. That's real good.

And you wonder why folks don't agree on simpler things.

[vontar]

Well, it's not like they designed it for 9.0 earthquake. Or for a wall of water, afterwords.

However, as earthquakes and tsunami's are common in the entire island nation of Japan as much care and backup plans should have been in place.

In the number of days since the quake, they should have been able to roll out flexible temporary water hose from point A to B to pipe water up to the plant faster then they can drive trucks up, just a guest. Japan is not a 3rd world nation here. I am sure they could get a water delivery system rigged up quick.

O Yea, based on their reaction to our Nuclear Ships, a couple years back, Yes I am shocked that they don't have their plants built to take a 9.0 or 9.5 even.

U.S. submarine radiation leak raises concern in Japan

U.S. submarine radiation leak raises concern in Japan | Reuters

"We're talking about an extremely minute amount of radiation...it's about half as much radiation as you would find in a 50 pound bag of fertilizer," Benham said.

In July 2008, they found the sub had leaked a small amount of radiation, so they informed Japan as it had been inside Japan waters from late March to early April.

OK, it is late and I am about to go over board if I don't quit.

[Guest bkelm18]

However, as earthquakes and tsunami's are common in the entire island nation of Japan as much care and backup plans should have been in place.

In the number of days since the quake, they should have been able to roll out flexible temporary water hose from point A to B to pipe water up to the plant faster then they can drive trucks up, just a guest. Japan is not a 3rd world nation here. I am sure they could get a water delivery system rigged up quick.

It's. just. not. that. simple. This isn't like putting out a house fire or filling a swimming pool. There are so many variables when it comes to nuclear reactors and the fission process that one wrong move and you just compounded the problem a hundred fold. Adding too much water too fast for example can actually shatter the fuel "rods" which would lead to a massive release of radioactive material. I can guarantee you that these things had probably been thought of and provisions in place. However, like 6.8 said, it's impossible to prepare for a disaster of this magnitude. Remember what a cluster**** Katrina was? How about we start praising these workers for the heroic efforts they're putting forward while knowing that their future health and possibly their lives are at risk. I'd say they are doing pretty damn good after almost being wiped off the map by a wall of water. Let's not armchair quarterback this and remember what they're going through over there.

Edited March 19, 2011 by bkelm18

[Guest mikedwood]

Astounding report from NPR. They actually seem to have some pretty good coverage on this situation. If someone with more knowledge then me could vet it that would be appreciated. I know The National Enquier ranks above NPR for most of us but it seems like they are taking this matter pretty seriously and soundly and more in depth than I have seem elsewhere.

Early Radiation Data From Near Plant Eases Health Fears : Shots - Health Blog : NPR

[Guest mikedwood]

It's. just. not. that. simple. This isn't like putting out a house fire or filling a swimming pool. There are so many variables when it comes to nuclear reactors and the fission process that one wrong move and you just compounded the problem a hundred fold. Adding too much water too fast for example can actually shatter the fuel "rods" which would lead to a massive release of radioactive material. I can guarantee you that these things had probably been thought of and provisions in place. However, like 6.8 said, it's impossible to prepare for a disaster of this magnitude. Remember what a cluster**** Katrina was? How about we start praising these workers for the heroic efforts they're putting forward while knowing that their future health and possibly their lives are at risk. I'd say they are doing pretty damn good after almost being wiped off the map by a wall of water. Let's not armchair quarterback this and remember what they're going through over there.

Planning for every eventuality would be costly, time consuming and who knows what else., then something else would probably happen like an alien invasion and some people would say they have been warning about that for 50 years or more.

They were prepared for earthquakes around a 7 or 8 from what I hear. Then they get hit with the 3rd strongest earthquake since 1900. Seems they might have planned better for the tsunami cause a 7 or better can make a tsunami. I'm sure they will next time.

I have to say of all weather disasters a tsunami takes the cake and crushes it. They are the most powerful, destructive thing I have ever seen by far.

[Garufa]

Since the conservatives in Congress are hell-bent on destroying NPR can we trust what they report? Is it only a feel-good story to appease the neo-cons and continue America's false sense of security?