Tsunami in Japan

[Lumber_Jack]

Well right now only the secondary containment shell exploded. But to your point id say there is damage to the primary containment, at least on reactor #2. That was a large kaboom. I hope the Japanese government isn't hold back info and putting citizens in danger to save face.

[Guest ArmyVeteran37214]

I believe the Japanese are holding back info.

[leroy]

All:______________

You may want to take the time to look at this link: http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Possible_damage_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_2_1503111.html. Take note of the "loud noise" discussion in the beginning of the post.

Ir appears that the problem may be that the vibrations and continual heavy loading of the supports, piping, and valves from the continuing suppression of steam (...steam is generated by the sea water cooling the reactor core...) in the torus region (...the "right" name is the suppression chamber - torus and suppression chamber are the same thing--the guys use it interchangeably when talking about the plant components...) may have torn piping or valve supports loose inside the torus.

Imagine holding onto a jet of hot steam and shoving it into water to condense the steam to water. It both heats the water and generates a helluva thrust and vibration while it's doing all this. I've got buddies that worked on the pre-operational testing at Browns Ferry in alabama (...a sister plant, but 1300 mw instead of 748...) of this same system. They said that you simply could not imagine the roar and vibration from the blowdown. As i remember (...this is a long time ago...) there was damage as the result of the initial testing of this system within the torus structure --- supports torn loose and some piping components torn up. That (...of course...) resulted in a re-design and beefing up of the components to stand the thrust loads involved; along with a subsequent re-test.

The forces from this blowdown of steam are unimaginable to most folks and a genuine design challenge to the nerdy engineers. The fact is that all this stuff is working pretty well considering the situation they are in. All that being said; this is still a serious situation and a genuine danger to those working so hard to fix these problems and cool this unit off.

The bottom line is that with all the problems, mayhem, and other things going on here; the guys working on this (...the real heroes in this story...) are doing a good job of using what they have to fix what they need to fix in unimaginably bad personal and enviornmental conditons. Continue to pray that these guys continue to manage this extremely dangerous (...for them...) situation.

leroy

Edited March 15, 2011 by leroy
spelling!!

[Guest db99wj]

All:______________

You may want to take the time to look at this link: Radiation decreasing, fuel ponds warming. Take note of the "loud noise" discussion in the beginning of the post.

Ir appears that the problem may be that the vibrations and continual heavy loading of the supports, piping, and valves from the continuing suppression of steam (...steam is generated by the sea water cooling the reactor core...) in the torus region (...the "right" name is the suppression chamber - torus and suppression chamber are the same thing--the guys use it interchangeably when talking about the plant components...) may have torn piping or valve supports loose inside the torus.

Imagine holding onto a jet of hot steam and shoving it into water to condense the steam to water. It both heats the water and generates a helluva thrust and vibration while it's doing all this. I've got buddies that worked on the pre-operational testing at Browns Ferry in alabama (...a sister plant, but 1300 mw instead of 748...) of this same system. They said that you simply could not imagine the roar and vibration from the blowdown. As i remember (...this is a long time ago...) there was damage as the result of the initial testing of this system within the torus structure --- supports torn loose and some piping components torn up. That (...of course...) resulted in a re-design and beefing up of the components to stand the thrust loads involved; along with a subsequent re-test.

The forces from this blowdown of steam are unimaginable to most folks and a genuine design challenge to the nerdy engineers. The fact is that all this stuff is working pretty well considering the situation they are in. All that being said; this is still a serious situation and a genuine danger to those working so hard to fix these problems and cool this unit off.

The bottom line is that with all the problems, mayhem, and other things going on here; the guys working on this (...the real heroes in this story...) are doing a good job of using what they have to fix what they need to fix in unimaginably bad personal and enviornmental conditons. Continue to pray that these guys continue to manage this extremely dangerous (...for them...) situation.

leroy

I heard a dude on the TV this morning say something in the effect that the safeguards are doing what they should, that this disaster is worse than 3-mile island, but nowhere near as bad as Chernobyl, and one of the biggest problems is going to be with staffing people to do the work that needs to be done, knowing that their lives are in grave danger. Seems like the world (media induced) is scared ****less about some radioactive steam that decays in seconds on release and is not a threat unless you are standing at the point of release, when we should be worried about the men that are in those buildings getting it done.

[leroy]

....I heard a dude on the TV this morning say something in the effect that the safeguards are doing what they should, that this disaster is worse than 3-mile island, but nowhere near as bad as Chernobyl, and one of the biggest problems is going to be with staffing people to do the work that needs to be done, knowing that their lives are in grave danger. Seems like the world (media induced) is scared ****less about some radioactive steam that decays in seconds on release and is not a threat unless you are standing at the point of release, when we should be worried about the men that are in those buildings getting it done....

You are exactly right. These guys probably have family they cant account for and are worn plumb down from fighting one problem right after another for the last 4 or 5 days straight. As was said before; these guys are the real heroes that are solving problems instead of wringing their hands about them. I say, God bless 'em. They are busy saving their neighbors, families, and the country of Japan from more disaster while the rest of the world (...us included...) watches in horror. They are great and heroic folks.

leroy

[strickj]

If it really is worse then 3-mile isle.... then does that mean that the hottest wing flavor will now be called "Japan"?

Too early?

[Guest mikedwood]

Too early?

I think you just disqualified yourself from being the next Aflac duck voice.

Yes those people working on those reactors are heros.

This next statement is making my BS meter read a 10.

"Radioactive material will reach Tokyo but it is not harmful to human bodies because it will be dissipated by the time it gets to Tokyo," said Koji Yamazaki, professor at Hokkaido University graduate school of environmental science.

[Guest bkelm18]

I think you just disqualified yourself from being the next Aflac duck voice.

Yes those people working on those reactors are heros.

This next statement is making my BS meter read a 10.

"Radioactive material will reach Tokyo but it is not harmful to human bodies because it will be dissipated by the time it gets to Tokyo," said Koji Yamazaki, professor at Hokkaido University graduate school of environmental science.

Not all radioactivity is created equal. There are types that are harmless to humans unless ingested. Alpha particles for example cannot penetrate skin. The material in the steam IIRC is an isotope of fluorine (my memory is a little rusty) which dissapates very quickly due to having a half-life of only a few seconds. Once containment fails though, all bets are off. As others have said, these guys are heroes for doing so much with so little. I know from experience these guys are pros. I just hope they can get it under control.

[Guest mikedwood]

ummmm..... They left?

Japan abandons stricken nuke plant over radiation - Yahoo! Finance

Probably not good.

[Guest db99wj]

ummmm..... They left?

Japan abandons stricken nuke plant over radiation - Yahoo! Finance

Probably not good.

Just saw that, news said there was a "surge" in radiation. Also that reactor 3 (I think) shows no exterior signs o damage but the containment vessel protecting the rods had a crack in it.

[Guest mikedwood]

So is it time to drag out my potassium iodine pills yet?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

An "activist" organization. Union of Concerned Scientists. Watch where you get your news, Yahoo!

[Oh Shoot]

It does seem from other reports that among all the other woes, the Japanese gov. is dealing with their own BP type CYA nightmare over there though.

- OS

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That's what I've noticed. Makes this bunch over here look like a bunch of amateurs,

doesn't it?

[Oh Shoot]

That's what I've noticed. Makes this bunch over here look like a bunch of amateurs,

doesn't it?

If we're on the same page, I meant the Toyko Electric Company or whoever it is that's the actual operator of the plants,not the government.

The prime minister was apparently actually in a cursing fit talking to them on phone today, and there have been past issues with incompetency in their operations.

We get the impression that the Japanese are extremely efficient in all matters of public services, sort of because they must be considering their dense population, but this outfit running these plants seems to be some sort of incompetent boondoggle.

The US experts I've seen interviewed have been pretty "polite" so far in their estimation of the nuke industry folks there, but I think we're gonna see more criticism from this end soon.

- OS

[Guest Lester Weevils]

It ain't Chernobyl (yet), but the Russians helicopter dumped thousands of tons sand, clay, boron, lead and concrete on Chernobyl to seal it off. In addition to pumping many tons of liquid nitrogen into the ground to cool the foundation of the reactor. Will they eventually have to do that in Japan, and if so, wonder what they are waiting for?

Ain't anti-nuke, and ain't trying to be alarmist. But it sounds like the situation ain't exactly stable at the moment.

Another thing I wonder, in case anyone knows-- Aftershocks are common after major earthquakes, but do the frequency and severity of aftershocks usually last as long as Japan is suffering?

[Guest bkelm18]

Well, I really wouldn't compare this to BP. The gulf incident was most definitely an error on the company, however, I really couldn't put blame on TEPCO for a crisis caused by a tsunami.

[leroy]

All:____________

An excellent update for March 16 is posted here: Fukushima Nuclear Accident – 16 March update « BraveNewClimate. Be sure to check out the notes on the spent fuel pit cooling.

RE: Professionalism, courage and heroism under fire. AR and other posters are exactly right. The TEPCO plant guys are, indeed, heroes and real nuclear guys ---they do make some of our "nuclear experts " (...thankfully; not all...) look like chumps. They have regularly been doing things at these plants that would make John Wayne afraid and Superman swoon. Let's hope they dont poop out before they get this thing whipped.

leroy

[Guest mikedwood]

They are going back in!

Not that anyone will actually read it but...

Japan prepares to restart work at nuclear plant - Yahoo! News

And don't worry Obama has it all under contol. Basketball brackets that is

http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2011/03/15/president-obamas-trivial-pursuits-2/

Edited March 16, 2011 by mikedwood

[Guest mikedwood]

An "activist" organization. Union of Concerned Scientists. Watch where you get your news, Yahoo!

Yahoo gets it from the AP and Reuters just like everyone else. If your refering the the workers bailing story it's an AP article and since most places are to cheap to send their own reporters AP is about as good as it gets.

[Guest nicemac]

Well, I really wouldn't compare this to BP. The gulf incident was most definitely an error on the company, however, I really couldn't put blame on TEPCO for a crisis caused by a tsunami.

Building a nuclear reactor on the shoreline, in the most active area of the world for earthquakes and tsunami wasn't exactly the smartest thing to do. Japan has been devastated by multiple tsunami waves throughout history (Wikipedia states it has been hit by tsunami 195 times).

[Guest bkelm18]

Building a nuclear reactor on the shoreline, in the most active area of the world for earthquakes and tsunami wasn't exactly the smartest thing to do. Japan has been devastated by multiple tsunami waves throughout history (Wikipedia states it has been hit by tsunami 195 times).

Seriously? In case you didn't notice, Japan is an island in one of the most active regions in the world. Nuclear power is one of a few viable options they have and building a plant near an unlimited water source is actually a very smart thing to do. I'm sure the threat of earthquakes and tsunamis was a consideration when the plant was built. Nuclear engineers aren't exactly dumb. Sometimes you have to take a risk. Drilling for oil is a risk obviously but it has to be done.

[Guest nicemac]

Seriously? In case you didn't notice, Japan is an island in one of the most active regions in the world. Nuclear power is one of a few viable options they have and building a plant near an unlimited water source is actually a very smart thing to do. I'm sure the threat of earthquakes and tsunamis was a consideration when the plant was built. Nuclear engineers aren't exactly dumb. Sometimes you have to take a risk. Drilling for oil is a risk obviously but it has to be done.

Yes, seriously. Build it three miles inland at an elevation of say, 30 feet. That removes tsunami form the equation.

[Guest bkelm18]

Yes, seriously. Build it three miles inland at an elevation of say, 30 feet. That removes tsunami form the equation.

Well I'm not going to second guess the engineers and scientists who are much smarter than I.

[Guest mikedwood]

Kamikaze spirit!

The Fukushima 50: Not afraid to die - CBS Evening News - CBS News

You just really have to hand it to these guys! Tougher than nails under pressure.

And Obama is... ????

Barak Obama's lack of leadership--John Podhoretz - NYPOST.com

Well he's apparently tough enough to make some basketball picks, raise some money and speak on education. I'd suppose the Japanese can fix it without his meddling, none the less I think with all going on Obama's agenda should be somewhat different.

Obama must have a very good staff cause he's going to Rio with the family this weekend!

http://blogs.forbes.com/kenrapoza/2011/03/14/obama-heads-to-rio-sunday-maximum-security-awaits/

Am I freaking dreaming?

Edited March 16, 2011 by mikedwood