Tsunami in Japan

[leroy]

....Apparently the Tsunami is nothing compared to what it going on now. There has been an explosion at one of their nuclear plants in the area and a meltdown seems imminent. ...

All:______________

Check this link for a bit more techical discussion of what is happening at these plants. I'm not minimizing the situation; but i hate the news media when it comes to this stuff:

Battle to stabilise earthquake reactors.

Here's the latest press release from the Tokyo Power Company: TEPCO : Press Release | Plant Status of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station (as of 11AM March 12th ).

The big hitter is the sentence here:

Unit 1(Shut down)

- Reactor has been shut down and steam in reactor has been cooled by

isolation condenser, but now it is stopped. Because pressure level in

reactor containment vessel is increasing, we are implementing a measure

to reduce the pressure of the reactor containment vessels in order to

fully secure safety.

Reactor water level is decreasing, we will continue injecting water step

by step.

The on site power plant guys need extra on site power to run the core cooling (...that's what the on site diesel generator sets were for; they were evidently hurt in the initial earthquake shock or the wave; and quit after running about an hour. They are huge; several thousand HP per set....) and add water to the reactor vessel to keep the water level over the fuel rods. They are evidently working on that and have some package diesel generators on site (...and i would presume running...) to run the injection water system and the core cooling system. The water level in the reactor is most likely decreasing due to evaporation because they dont have enough power yet to run the pumps fast enough to get the cooling water going fast enough to overtake and calm down the heat buildup in the fuel rods; but they dont say that anywhere (...too busy, i would guess...).

All that being said; ive got a lot more faith in the Japanese Nuclear guys and the Japanese news media than i do these ink splashing sensationalist clowns over the globe that are putting out the news releases about meltdowns and explosions.

This is, indeed, a serious situation. It is dangerous (...especially to those on site doing the work...). We need to be in prayer for all the folks in Japan, especially the ones working on this problem. It will be solved by the technical guys on site; not a bunch of third basers, newspaper hacks, Union of Concerned Scientist spokesmen, assorted talking heads, regulators, and polititians.

RE: The "explosion". My guess is that when the steam vented from the reactor containment; it pressurized the inside of the building (...which is a concrete structure with a steel frame -- i think --that is what most of them are...). Between the damage to the concrete from the initial quake and the over pressure inside; the cracked concrete gave way (...the "explosion; look at the steam vent at the beginning of the clip...) and left the steel building frame intact; again, all conjecture. Bottom line; there aint been a "nuclear explosion". There has been an over pressurization that evidently knocked down the wall panels on a severely damaged concrete building. It demonstrates the dangers that these on site guys are facing while working on the very serious problem.

leroy

[Mad_Squirrell]

from what I've gathered from most of the credible news reports because of the afore mentioned reasons by leroy the only immanent threat from radiation is the pressure venting of radioactive gases (steam) and that seems from my observation would only be a localized danger until the steam dissipates into the atmosphere . Not to play down the situation I realize that this issue left unintended could have Chernobyl devastation like proportions. But from what I have gathered the problem is being attended too .

[Guest bkelm18]

Being a former nuclear reactor worker, I absolutely hate all these sensationalist news stories. This isn't going to be Chernobyl. It's a bad situation but it's not a crisis. Even if one of the cores suffered heat stress damage and fuel plate failure, it would still be contained most likely. The Jap nuclear folks are some of the best in the world. Keeping the plates covered with water is rule number one. If you can do that then you're doing pretty damn good. I wish them the best of luck.

[Daniel]

To soon?

[Guest db99wj]

To soon?

Win.

[Caster]

Oh No, there goes Tokyo. Go, Go ...................

To soon?

[Guest mikedwood]

To soon?

Right on time I think.

I dunno though an 8.9 earthquake a Tsunami that takes out several villages and a million person city then a problem with the cooling over several nuclear plants and you guys are saying it's not that bad? I really hope I never see the day when you guys think it's bad....

I really have to hand it to those working on the nuke plants. Cities and probably your home, wife kids all in a mess and you have to stay there and save whats left. Freaking heros to the bone.

My heart goes out to the whole of Japan. It's unimaginable to me. Hollywood would have just picked one disaster, they are getting 3 and over 200 aftershocks over 5.0 since the big quake. Their nerves have to be completely rattled.

[Guest bkelm18]

Right on time I think.

I dunno though an 8.9 earthquake a Tsunami that takes out several villages and a million person city then a problem with the cooling over several nuclear plants and you guys are saying it's not that bad? I really hope I never see the day when you guys think it's bad....

I really have to hand it to those working on the nuke plants. Cities and probably your home, wife kids all in a mess and you have to stay there and save whats left. Freaking heros to the bone.

My heart goes out to the whole of Japan. It's unimaginable to me. Hollywood would have just picked one disaster, they are getting 3 and over 200 aftershocks over 5.0 since the big quake. Their nerves have to be completely rattled.

I didn't mean to imply the while situation wasn't bad. I was just referring to the nuke plants and how the media is acting like Japan is about to become a nuclear wasteland. The people of Japan are certainly suffering a great deal right now and I stand ready to help in any way I could.

[Guest mikedwood]

I didn't mean to imply the while situation wasn't bad. I was just referring to the nuke plants and how the media is acting like Japan is about to become a nuclear wasteland. The people of Japan are certainly suffering a great deal right now and I stand ready to help in any way I could.

I know you know about this nuclear plant stuff. I haven't been watching any TV on this, we don't have cable cause I don't like paying for it.

Can you answer me one question please? Most of what I have been reading on it seems to imply that for the most part they think that the nuclear activity is and will remain contained but they are afraid of losing the use of the reactors. Sounds crazy to me. Seems like these reactors would be junk now but maybe not. I know it's expensive and time consuming to build one and Japan doesn't have many options to provide electricity to millions of people on a small island system without much in the way for energy resources for 125,000,000 people.

I really can't imagine how the talking heads have taken this an run with it.

[Lumber_Jack]

I know you know about this nuclear plant stuff. I haven't been watching any TV on this, we don't have cable cause I don't like paying for it.

Can you answer me one question please? Most of what I have been reading on it seems to imply that for the most part they think that the nuclear activity is and will remain contained but they are afraid of losing the use of the reactors. Sounds crazy to me. Seems like these reactors would be junk now but maybe not. I know it's expensive and time consuming to build one and Japan doesn't have many options to provide electricity to millions of people on a small island system without much in the way for energy resources for 125,000,000 people.

I really can't imagine how the talking heads have taken this an run with it.

I believe the reactors are junk now no matter what. They have been pumping sea water directly into the reactor to aid in preventing meltdown. Tis is what caused the hydrogen gas buildup that cause the explosion yesterday. The salt deposits and other by products form the sea will probably render the reactor unsalvageable. They are trying to prevent full melt down of the core. If the containment shell ruptures and the fuel rods come in contact with the water it will explode and send radioactive material airborn ( not to mention the explosion itself).

[Lumber_Jack]

I heard yesterday they are at emergency level 4, which means local imminent danger. 3 mile island was a level 5, which is a more broad danger of wider range, and Chernobyle was levers 7, Major Disaster

[Guest Lester Weevils]

USGS is reporting that substantial parts of Japan have shifted 8 feet because of the earthquake and the earth's axis has tilted a few inches.

Eight feet (I believe) may be sufficient to foul up some of the more precision applications of GPS. It is within the public-available standard of error, but for instance don't surveyors use military-quality GPS along with a ground-based radio system?

It would certainly be confusing if one owned an old fence line and suddenly the fence is 8 feet into the neighbor's property.

Found some discussion here. There may be more authoritative discussion, but "GPS" and "Japan Shift" are in too many news web articles today to make it an easy search. (USGS used the word GPS in their announcement).

Japan earthquake/tsunami effects on Geocaching - Groundspeak Forums

The axis shift of the Earth is probably less significant, but wonder about the geometry of that. A slight axis shift might dislocate GPS measurements a fair distance near the equator? The axis would shift but the GPS satellite orbits would not shift?

The article above describes that there is slow tectonic drift and natural earth wobbles which account for several feet drift per decade just about everywhere. So an old GPS map might not be extremely accurate anyway. For precision use, seems that GPS maps would need relatively constant updating?

[leroy]

All:______________

Here is a good place to keep up with what' going on with the Japanese Nuclear Plants.

World Nuclear News

leroy

[Oh Shoot]

I believe the reactors are junk now no matter what...

Yeah, seems at least a couple (so far) are. Only a billion bucks each, maybe double that now, these were pretty old.

Unlike conventional disaster sites, it's possible that they cannot even be razed to reclaim the land and surrounding infrastructure, but only abandoned and sealed. It's not like Japan has lots of land to spare either.

This (and spent fuel storage) is why we simply don't have as many nuke plants in US.. This quake/tsunami is being referred to as a "once in 500 years" event and the like. Okay, cool, except that you're dealing with materials that have half lives of 50,000 years or whatever. Pretty arrogant to think we can always safely handle that over time. We also are still clueless on nuke waste storage. Yucca Mountain site has been scrapped after billions spent there. We have deadly stuff with half lives longer much longer than human history stored all over the country.

Then again, the risk may well be worth it, and indeed inevitable as our other sources of energy peter out and/or prove to be woefully inadequate.

- OS

Edited March 13, 2011 by OhShoot

[Guest mikedwood]

NASA images of the area hit but the tsunami.

Satellite photos show devastation in Japan - Technology & science - Space - Space.com - msnbc.com

It's like a huge bulldozer just leveled the place.

Also they have had over 300 4.5 and better earthquakes since, and about 40 since 7 last night.

Unimaginable to me short or armagedon.

Now this....

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/14/japan.us.navy.radiation/index.html?hpt=T1

Edited March 14, 2011 by mikedwood

[Guest db99wj]

Those two explosions they showed on TV were quite impressive. However, they did say that the steel reinforced capsule that contains the nuclear material stayed intact, and is designed to withstand a full meltdown, unlike that of Chernobyl.

I don't know much about it, but I seem to recall that the Japanese are some of the best when it comes to Nuclear power, I'm glad it is them and not some 3rd world country or old antiquated equipment that was and is being used by other former super powers.

One thought I have had is about the future of Nuclear power, we are behind it would appear on using this due to concerns of catastrophic failures such as this. If the Japanese can effectively contain this, and continue on, even after the worlds 5th largest earthquake that has been recorded, then our future with Nuclear power, and the questions and concerns regarding safety can be alleviated some.

Edited March 14, 2011 by db99wj

[Guest ArmyVeteran37214]

U.S. West Coast in Path of Fallout

YouTube - TheAlexJonesChannel's Channel

YouTube - TheAlexJonesChannel's Channel

YouTube - TheAlexJonesChannel's Channel

YouTube - TheAlexJonesChannel's Channel

YouTube - TheAlexJonesChannel's Channel

YouTube - TheAlexJonesChannel's Channel

YouTube - TheAlexJonesChannel's Channel

Alex is not always right, but he is right a majority of the time!

Edited March 14, 2011 by StreetWK05

[leroy]

All:_______________

Take the time to read this: Fukushima Nuclear Accident – a simple and accurate explanation « BraveNewClimate.

This is an accurate assessment of the situation from someone with good sense.

Leroy

[Oh Shoot]

...If the Japanese can effectively contain this, and continue on, even after the worlds 5th largest earthquake that has been recorded, then our future with Nuclear power, and the questions and concerns regarding safety can be alleviated some.

That earthquake was minimum 130 miles away from any of these reactors.

- OS

[Guest db99wj]

All:_______________

Take the time to read this: Fukushima Nuclear Accident – a simple and accurate explanation « BraveNewClimate.

This is an accurate assessment of the situation from someone with good sense.

Leroy

Reading it, good information, I know now more than all the journalist put together!!!

[Guest db99wj]

That earthquake was minimum 130 miles away from any of these reactors.

- OS

And if the same earthquake of 1811-1812 that formed Reelfoot lake hit today, Memphis would be leveled, which is about 100 miles as the crow flies from New Madrid, MO, where that quake was centered.

I'm not sure if I follow your statement.

[Oh Shoot]

And if the same earthquake of 1811-1812 that formed Reelfoot lake hit today, Memphis would be leveled, which is about 100 miles as the crow flies from New Madrid, MO, where that quake was centered.

I'm not sure if I follow your statement.

Effects of the quake were much mitigated by being underwater and 130+ miles away plus perhaps most importantly, the fault line it occurred upon did not extend through Japanese mainland.

Just not the same situation at all as New Madrid or San Andreas faults. You're actually supporting my point that the Japan quake was actually far from a worst case earthquake/nuke facility test.

- OS

[Guest db99wj]

Effects of the quake were much mitigated by being underwater and 130+ miles away plus perhaps most importantly, the fault line it occurred upon did not extend through Japanese mainland.

Just not the same situation at all as New Madrid or San Andreas faults. You're actually supporting my point that the Japan quake was actually far from a worst case earthquake/nuke facility test.

- OS

I think we are on the same page, before I read the article Leroy linked, I was thinking that as bad as it was, the earthquake, and the tsunami, that their designs and experience is paying off and as long is there is not a catastrophic failure, than it might help us further into Nuclear power being more common place.

From the article Leroy posted, that is the biggest problem was that it was one two punch, the earthquake was punch number one, and the tsunami was punch number 2, but they are not down and out, the systems in place to protect from catastrophic failure actually is working, with some issues, but working nonetheless. If the trucked in generators would have correctly "plugged in" to the facility, a lot of this media induced panic wouldn't even be an issue.

[Guest bkelm18]

I know you know about this nuclear plant stuff. I haven't been watching any TV on this, we don't have cable cause I don't like paying for it.

Can you answer me one question please? Most of what I have been reading on it seems to imply that for the most part they think that the nuclear activity is and will remain contained but they are afraid of losing the use of the reactors. Sounds crazy to me. Seems like these reactors would be junk now but maybe not. I know it's expensive and time consuming to build one and Japan doesn't have many options to provide electricity to millions of people on a small island system without much in the way for energy resources for 125,000,000 people.

I really can't imagine how the talking heads have taken this an run with it.

I think you hit it on the head. As you say, Japan is kinda limited when it comes to generating power. When you lose a reactor, not only do you lose the money it takes to build one, you lose the time AND money it takes to properly dispose of the failed plant and rebuild a new one. But yeah, once you get fuel plate failure, or even think you've got failure, that core is done. At the very least it's out of commission for a LONG time while they inspect it.

I believe the reactors are junk now no matter what. They have been pumping sea water directly into the reactor to aid in preventing meltdown. Tis is what caused the hydrogen gas buildup that cause the explosion yesterday. The salt deposits and other by products form the sea will probably render the reactor unsalvageable. They are trying to prevent full melt down of the core. If the containment shell ruptures and the fuel rods come in contact with the water it will explode and send radioactive material airborn ( not to mention the explosion itself).

Yep. On my ship, we had several back-up means of cooling, the absolute very last resort was seawater. Once seawater hits the core, it's toast. It's not just the salt deposits, it's the massive amount of corrosion from the salt water in the core that will take place very quickly.

Edited March 14, 2011 by bkelm18

[Guest mikedwood]

The fact those reactors can blow up and not leak much radiation is seriously beyond my ability to believe.