North Korea is EMP Capable

[Dolomite_supafly]

An EMP bomb could turn the country into a third world **** hole over night if the effects lasted. People have gotten so addicted to modern appliances (including me) that any wide spread interuption would cause people to loose their minds. Also, we would loose our ability to maintain the supply and demand we need now. If people loss just the use of their cell phones and Walmart decided to shut it's doors all in the same day people would loose their minds and think it is the end of the world.

Another thing to consider is this. There are 5,000+ aircraft in the air over the US at any given time. An EMP would cause these planes to literally fall from the sky, killing hundreds of thousands in a matter of minutes. For me I couldn't imagine anything scarier than seeing dozens of planes just fall from the skies. Now consider that people would be in the dark regarding the cause this would only strengthen the fears.

This puts the destruction it would cause into perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTsKtE73QUo

As far as a delivery vehicle there are probably easier and less expensive ways to get one into the air than through the use of a military delivery vehicle. Although not ideal it would still be effective.

I can tell you from experience that the government was testing the effects of EMP type devices back in the 90's. I was stationed at a base that had a large testing facility and part of it was used to determine the extent of damage a EMP bomb would cause. Not really sure of the outcome of the testing back then but I would hope there would have been some advances since then.

What do you know, here is a video of the test facility:

HowStuffWorks Videos "ElectroMagnetic Pulse Bomb"

This is only a small portion of the test facility.

Dolomite

Edited March 19, 2011 by Dolomite_supafly

[DaveTN]

I'd recommend you read the book or at lest check out Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack, Volume I, Executive Report 2004 available here: Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack

That report is not encouraging - virtually none of our modern electronics are hardened against EMP and as far as I can tell, nothing substantial has been done to change that since the above report was presented. Maybe there is some top-secret government program to save some of our assets...but most of our asses would be in a sling if we were hit with an EMP.

Certainly there will be systems that fail from an EMP. Most because the money can’t be justified to protect them.

The Navy built, tested, and dismantled an EMP simulator for ships in Chesapeake Bay. More people were concerned with the environmental impact of an EMP generator than any potential threat from an EMP. There are EMP simulators still operating that test aircraft.

Our number #1 line of defense is our Ballistic Submarines and the missiles they carry. I would bet they are EMP protected. They (and China) are what keep North Korea from doing anything too stupid. North Korea is just a bully that wants to take your lunch money. I don’t think we should pay them.

Certainly we would be in a sling if hit with a large EMP. Because an EMP would more than likely come for a nuclear blast. Of course the blast, the radiation, and the contamination of our water supply and resources will be of a greater immediate concern than whether or not our electronics work.

Movies are a great source of entertainment aren’t they? Watch the movie “Fail Safe†from 1964. It scared the crap out of people back then.

[G27]

The reality is an HEMP detonation that cripples everything is likely just working theory - not really possible in the real world. It could put us in a world of hurt, yes, but kill everything? Unlikely. I can't find it now, but I read about a military test fairly recently where 100% of autos were killed by the pulse, yet nearly 80% were able to be restarted and driven off afterwards (with some minor systems not working).

I kinda think the HEMP is the modern day boogeyman...

[RobertNashville]

Certainly there will be systems that fail from an EMP. Most because the money can’t be justified to protect them.

The Navy built, tested, and dismantled an EMP simulator for ships in Chesapeake Bay. More people were concerned with the environmental impact of an EMP generator than any potential threat from an EMP. There are EMP simulators still operating that test aircraft.

Our number #1 line of defense is our Ballistic Submarines and the missiles they carry. I would bet they are EMP protected. They (and China) are what keep North Korea from doing anything too stupid. North Korea is just a bully that wants to take your lunch money. I don’t think we should pay them.

Certainly we would be in a sling if hit with a large EMP. Because an EMP would more than likely come for a nuclear blast. Of course the blast, the radiation, and the contamination of our water supply and resources will be of a greater immediate concern than whether or not our electronics work.

Movies are a great source of entertainment aren’t they? Watch the movie “Fail Safe” from 1964. It scared the crap out of people back then.

I really suggest you read the commission's report - it isn'a a N blast (radiation) that's the problem and subs still operating won't matter either.

The country would be instantly transported back to 1930 (maybe even more like 1880) level technonogy which wouldn't matter if it werE 1930 but to suddenly put people there who have no idea how to stay aloce with no communication...so food delivery...no medicine delivery...no operating vehicles except very old ones; it would kill millions and perhaps not even as humanely as vahishing in a radioactive cloud.

[DaveTN]

I really suggest you read the commission's report - it isn'a a N blast (radiation) that's the problem and subs still operating won't matter either.

The country would be instantly transported back to 1930 (maybe even more like 1880) level technonogy which wouldn't matter if it werE 1930 but to suddenly put people there who have no idea how to stay aloce with no communication...so food delivery...no medicine delivery...no operating vehicles except very old ones; it would kill millions and perhaps not even as humanely as vahishing in a radioactive cloud.

You can't be serious.

[mikegideon]

The reality is an HEMP detonation that cripples everything is likely just working theory - not really possible in the real world. It could put us in a world of hurt, yes, but kill everything? Unlikely. I can't find it now, but I read about a military test fairly recently where 100% of autos were killed by the pulse, yet nearly 80% were able to be restarted and driven off afterwards (with some minor systems not working).

I kinda think the HEMP is the modern day boogeyman...

An EMP is not going to kill everything, but it will do some widespread damage. It's also not a trivial thing to deliver it. You're talking about delivering a heavy nuke to a very high altitude. For example, to cover a 480 mile radius, you would have to pop a nuke at an altitude of 30 miles (158,000 FEET!). Even IF some of the crazier countries could pull that off, it would only yield regional damage. To cover a 1000 mile radius (still won't cover the entire US), the required altitude is 120 miles (633,000 feet). I'm no expert, but I don't think there are many planes that can deliver that kind of payload at those altitudes. I think we're talking long range missles.

It's also my guess that we are going to see a missle, and its trajectroy. So, the country that launches may have to deal with some nukes too.

I need to read up more. Anything is possible, including world peace and free healthcare. That doesn't make it likely.

Edited March 19, 2011 by mikegideon

[DaveTN]

An EMP is not going to kill everything, but it will do some widespread damage. It's also not a trivial thing to deliver it. You're talking about delivering a heavy nuke to a very high altitude. For example, to cover a 480 mile radius, you would have to pop a nuke at an altitude of 30 miles (158,000 FEET!). Even IF some of the crazier countries could pull that off, it would only yield regional damage. To cover a 1000 mile radius (still won't cover the entire US), the required altitude is 120 miles (633,000 feet). I'm no expert, but I don't think there are many planes that can deliver that kind of payload at those altitudes. I think we're talking long range missles.

It's also my guess that we are going to see a missle, and its trajectroy. So, the country that launches may have to deal with some nukes too.

I need to read up more. Anything is possible, including world peace and free healthcare. That doesn't make it likely.

I don’t think we are talking about an EMP from a nuke, I think we are talking about a generated EMP pulse. (Just as we developed in the 90’s).

If any country hits us with an EMP from a Nuke; they would instantly be destroyed. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that not even the North Koreans are that crazy.

[G27]

Oh, a HEMP is absolutely carried via a missile as a launch vehicle, which is the difficult part. Few countries have the tech to get one high enough to do the damage necessary for it to be worth the risk.

And again, tests have been run over the years with various results - Starfish Prime is a good example of a US test and the Russians did a few as well - none of them yielded the sort of 'end of times' results that we read about in these threads...

Not saying it couldn't happen, just saying in the real world, it's highly unlikely that even if one of the handful of countries with the capability (both warhead and delivery vehicle) decided to do so, that we'd see the total 'frying' of everything. The biggest issue would likely be our agin power grid, which would almost certainly fail considering our high power lines make for perfect antennae. Good luck replacing all those transformers anytime soon...

[G27]

I don’t think we are talking about an EMP from a nuke, I think we are talking about a generated EMP pulse. (Just as we developed in the 90’s).

If any country hits us with an EMP from a Nuke; they would instantly be destroyed. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that not even the North Koreans are that crazy.

I'm fairly certain every US report I've read was based on a nuclear detonation @ 220-400 miles altitude above the surface. No fallout, no damage from the explosion, but a very nice EMP is generated...

[Oh Shoot]

...

Certainly we would be in a sling if hit with a large EMP. Because an EMP would more than likely come for a nuclear blast. Of course the blast, the radiation, and the contamination of our water supply and resources will be of a greater immediate concern than whether or not our electronics work.

You need to research a bit more.

High altitude nukes kill no one and emit little if any radiation to ground level.

Even those still within the atmosphere are very benign in those regards compared to a surface detonation.

- OS

[mikegideon]

I don’t think we are talking about an EMP from a nuke, I think we are talking about a generated EMP pulse. (Just as we developed in the 90’s).

If any country hits us with an EMP from a Nuke; they would instantly be destroyed. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that not even the North Koreans are that crazy.

There's a wonderful thing about nuclear energy. It's the main reason the science exists. You can release a whole lot of energy with a relatively light package. We are bound by physics. An EMP can induce thousands of volts per meter, but the real destructive power is going to be determined by the energy in that pulse. For example, you can kick up thousands of volts of static charge in the winter time. That charge will destroy semiconductor junctions. Static control measures are used in any decent electronic assembly area. Now... touch your TV with that same charge. There is so little energy in the charge that it will do no damage. Shielding and circuit loading (mainly) protects those same junctions to a large degree.

Because of what I do for a living, I have had gear subjected to very high energy pulses, probably thousands of times. It's amazing what survives that kind of thing. It would be difficult or impossible to generate the energy of a 1 megaton nuclear blast in a package that you could get off the ground.

It's easy to induce a high voltage in an open wire. If you're going to induce that same voltage in a loaded wire, you better put a lot of ass behind it.

[mikegideon]

And again, tests have been run over the years with various results - Starfish Prime is a good example of a US test and the Russians did a few as well - none of them yielded the sort of 'end of times' results that we read about in these threads...

Yep, they got some good data from that one, even though I think the EMP effects were actually an accident.

[DaveTN]

You need to research a bit more.

High altitude nukes kill no one and emit little if any radiation to ground level.

My point is that A.) No one is going to detonate a Nuke over us. B.) If they did an EMP would pale in comparison to the other problems we would have. No, you may not be able to surf TGO, but that will not be your biggest concern.

Even those still within the atmosphere are very benign in those regards compared to a surface detonation.

You mean benign like Hiroshima and Nagasaki? They were both air bursts. A ground burst is not desirable for a weapon.

[mikegideon]

My point is that A.) No one is going to detonate a Nuke over us. B.) If they did an EMP would pale in comparison to the other problems we would have. No, you may not be able to surf TGO, but that will not be your biggest concern.

You mean benign like Hiroshima and Nagasaki? They were both air bursts. A ground burst is not desirable for a weapon.

All nukes are air bursts so they can maximize the destructive radius. It makes no sense to spread the radius more than avaiable energy. Wasn't ground zero around 1000 feet above ground? A bomb used for EMP is too high to make it an effective bomb. The blast energy will decay based on distance. 30 miles is a long way, even for a nuke. The WW2 nukes had a pretty small radius in terms of destruction from the blast.

[Oh Shoot]

...You mean benign like Hiroshima and Nagasaki? They were both air bursts. A ground burst is not desirable for a weapon.

See Mike's follow.

Yes, they are all technically "air bursts". Big diff tween 500-1000 feet and 50 miles and up.

I understand how you get hung up on "issues" sometimes, but this really is known science. While the EMP effects may be debated, the radioactive/destructive effects (or rather, relative lack of effects) of high altitude nuclear explosions are pretty much just math, not voodoo science like global warming or something.

Pedestrian overview at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_altitude_nuclear_explosion

- OS

Edited March 19, 2011 by OhShoot

[mikegideon]

It's ALL math

[OngoingFreedom]

My point is that A.) No one is going to detonate a Nuke over us. B.) If they did an EMP would pale in comparison to the other problems we would have. No, you may not be able to surf TGO, but that will not be your biggest concern.

I don't share your optimism. In one of the two books (heck maybe both, I don't remember) "One Second After" and "Lights Out" a rogue nation attacks the US by launching 2-3 nukes for an atmospheric EMP burst over the continental landmass from a container ship(s) in the Gulf of Mexico. All that's needed is a simple delivery vehicle that is capable of pushing a package high enough to work. Who is the US going to retaliate against in the minutes it has to backtrace the boat(s)?

I dunno, it doesn't seem inconceivable to me. Quite the opposite, it seems scarily possible, even likely. It is thanks to these to books (and to "Patriots") that I've started saving food for the long term.

[Spook]

Back to the original post. Don't take the claims that NK has an EMP capability as being gospel. These people aren't 10 feet tall. Remember, this is a country that can't generate enough electricity for even its basic needs. They can't feed themselves. They are still in an analog world, so to speak. They certainly don't have an ICBM delivery vehicle which is what it would take to hit the continental U.S. with anything. The propaganda that comes out of there is meant to hoodwink their own people.

On the subject of an effectively delivered EMP, I believe most of what is described in "One Second After" is the actual result IF powerful enough. Even if it wasn't I believe even half of the resulting impact would put most of our poplace in dire straits. If cell phones, the electronic banking system, point of sale, etc. were affected the result would be near chaos for many. All the more reason to be as well prepared as possible.

[Oh Shoot]

I'm thinking that the two likeliest nuke scenarios are:

1. Dirty bomb (which wouldn't probably even be a nuke, actually, but some sort of explosive that simply disperses the hot material). Likely responsible for more terror than actual death, unless it were really a whopper, or a whole bunch of suitcase sized suicide squads setting off a bunch at one time all over the country.

2. The EMP scenario. Really a lot of bang for the buck. Might be difficult to trace source, especially if just one. Now that we actually have private rocket enterprises, it's conceivable that a terrorist org could actually afford to toss one up there at some point. In such an increasingly small world, really can't see much motive for government or terrorist org to destroy turf in such a way as to make it unusable for a thousand years or whatever. If you could just set a first world country back for a few years, you win big.

There's one other nuclear wild card: the neutron bomb.

I haven't heard much about them in years, which probably means at least we and the Russkies have really good ones.

Unlike Spook, though, I think North Korea might be a pretty likely candidate for doing a big nasty. They could always be given the stuff to do it with, whether their technology is up to it or not. It's difficult to believe that an entire country can essentially be run by a handful of madmen, or even just ONE lunatic, but it's a fact. Kim Jr. has probably been raised to be as much a psycho as pop. And of course, some of the countries are run by Muslim Madmen, and that's a real bonus for a "Christian Nation" like the USA.

All that being said, though, I still think the likeliest scenario for mass population reduction, here and worldwide, is still in the economic realm.

- OS

Edited March 20, 2011 by OhShoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

All that being said, though, I still think the likeliest scenario for mass population reduction, here and worldwide, is still in the economic realm.

- OS

I have said it for years, we are at war with China. Mostly economically but in other ways as well. I have been told by reliable sources that Chinese soldiers have been found imbeeded with our enemies in the middle east. Just like we do with our SF troops.

China could turn us into a third world **** hole nearly over night. All they would have to do is refuse to sell us their goods. Imagine if 90+% of the items in Walmart weren't there anymore. And not just Walmart but nearly every store has a large percentage of Chinese products. The Chinese are already positioning by working out an agreement with Russia (who definitely want us to fall) to quit using the dollar because the dollar is too unstable. Add this to the fact we are now at a point where we are spending way more than we, as a nation, generate and we are getting closer to a point where China will outlast us if they do decide to quit selling to us. And because China is such a strong force in the market place they could use their influence to have other countries to quit selling to us as well.

I believe what stops them from doing it right now is it would shut their country down as well. If they didn't have revenue from our purchases they would also head into economic ruin. But consider that the majority of the China still don't live as well as us they don't have a long way to go and could probably survive a economic meltdown better then us. At some point they will have enough revenue from other sources to be able to cut us off and at that point people here are going to freak. It is when the majority of the "must haves" turn into the "have nots" is when you will see widespread chaos. In the begining it will be looting like in Louisiana right after Katrina. Next will be the slow starvation at the population centers as the food supplies run out. If they do venture out I suspect they will not be meet with open arms as everyone will be feeling the pinch and every extra mouth to feed is more of a burden.

Dolomite

[G27]

I don't share your optimism. In one of the two books (heck maybe both, I don't remember) "One Second After" and "Lights Out" a rogue nation attacks the US by launching 2-3 nukes for an atmospheric EMP burst over the continental landmass from a container ship(s) in the Gulf of Mexico. All that's needed is a simple delivery vehicle that is capable of pushing a package high enough to work. Who is the US going to retaliate against in the minutes it has to backtrace the boat(s)?

I'm no rocket surgeon, but my understanding is that there's nothing simple about lifting a nuclear warhead 200km above the earth's surface. I don't know of any rogue / third world nations that even have that sort of lift capability.

[Spook]

Unlike Spook, though, I think North Korea might be a pretty likely candidate for doing a big nasty. They could always be given the stuff to do it with, whether their technology is up to it or not.

It simply not that simple. You can't hand a complex weapon/rocket system to them and expect it to be deployed. If it were that easy everyone would have developed it. That said, I do agree with you that the economic mess could be our downfall.

Cheers...

[mikegideon]

I'm no rocket surgeon, but my understanding is that there's nothing simple about lifting a nuclear warhead 200km above the earth's surface. I don't know of any rogue / third world nations that even have that sort of lift capability.

Even if they could, it simply isn't capable of killing everything. Let me give you a real world example, about 1:40 into the video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMpm7oHNivg

That's my 180 ft. tower on Music Row. Part of the effects of that large energy dump is a pretty significant EMP induced by the huge current pulse in the tower. It was a fraction of the energy from a nuke, but it wasn't 30 to 500 miles away either... it was 20 feet away. The facility houses five radio stations (studios), a statewide network, and all the business offices that support it. I'm the director of engineering for that facility, so I (and my staff) was responsible for the recovery. We have over 150 PC's in the building, all connected to the network and the power distrubution. We have 12 full size radio studios as well. We have 9 (or so) T1's to the phone company for voice and data communication. There's more stuff in there too, too much to list.

Here's what happened... 3 of the 5 stations remained on the air, and we got the other two back on within 30 minutes. We lost less than 10 computers. damage was scattered throughout the building, but there was almost no crippling damage. It DID kill all our phone service by killing AT&T's fiber MUX. It took them about 12 hours to restore it. We were without landline phones for the entire time, but had our computer network restored within an hour via satellite backup. Most of the damaged gear was repaired on site by my staff and me.

Also note that the facility was connected to the tower, so a lot of the damage was from the high voltage generated across the base of the tower.

I know that the makeup of a lightning pulse is significantly different than a pulse from a nuke. With that said, this was a BIG pulse, with lots of computer gear within 20 feet of the source. It's safe to say that there were E1 and E2 components (E3 is irrelevent here), and that they could have been as large or larger than one generated by a nuke, especially one that's 500 miles away. Note that the power grid doomsday scenarios fly apart without extensive damage to solid state control circuits from the E1 component. BTW... no cell phones were damaged in the making of this film.

The longwave E3 component is of concern, but much less so if the solid state control circuits remain intact. It's also possible that they haven't considered all the older technology overload circuits that remain in our power grid. Would a well implemented EMP break a lot of stuff using US nuclear weapons technology? I think yes. Will it break everything? Probably not. But, as one of our favorite scumbags once said, "never let a crisis go to waste".

Some good reading for the geeky ones... The Space Review: The EMP threat: fact, fiction, and response (part 1) (page 1)

Edited March 20, 2011 by mikegideon

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Wonder if ordinary common equipment power line protection such as MOV's and such in powerline conditioners would have any protective effect on an EMP. At least the part of the EMP which is resonated by the powerlines. Destructive voltages inducted directly on to circuit boards probably wouldn't get protection from MOV's and filters in power supplies or power line conditioners.

I had a near lightning strike right on top of my studio/shop about 15 years back. Wasn't in the shop at the time and I was in the habit of throwing the main breaker when not in the building. The lightning came in on the phone line and blew a modem to pieces. It followed the modem to a computer and blew it up, followed the ethernet to a couple of other computers and took em out but didn't show obvious damage. It followed the computers into a MIDI patch bay and ate the MIDI Output driver chip of every synthesizer in the building. Luckily, only fifty cent driver chips needed replacing in all the synthesizers to bring them back from the dead. The toll was remarkably light-- One modem and computer blown to smithereens, two other computers fried, and a couple days work with the soldering iron.

Brother in law was an army officer back in the 1980's cold war period. Long ago I asked him any precautions they took against EMP stationed in cold-war Germany. He said the main precaution was to always have backup equipment powered off so they can haul out the backups and turn em on if an EMP takes out the powered-up equipment. Dunno about the accuracy of that report or whether it would be effective. Wonder if an EMP really would be less likely to fry a circuit which is powered off? Long ago I read that the military at least at one time was using some gallium arsenide electronics specifically because it was less subject to EMP than silicon.

[G27]

Even if they could, it simply isn't capable of killing everything.

Yah, that was my point earlier in this thread - the boogeyman effect has folks thinking in pure ideals. In the real world nothing works across the board like that, and little things that seem insignificant can radically alter the effects.

IOW, there's no going back to the 1800's from a few HEMPs. Could screw us up pretty good, yah, but Lights Out and One Second After are just interesting fiction...