Citizens Arrest in SC allows "shoot to kill" ?!

[BlackHawk93]

In browsing other forums and an email from USACarry I saw a thread about South Carolina's Citizen's Arrest law, which apparently states that "you can kill someone at night to stop them from fleeing after you have intiated a citizen's arrest if you have just suspicions of his design to commit some felony."

Does this even sound like it makes any sense, in light of OUR HCP laws which clearly state that you can only use deadly force if you feel you or someone else is in fear of death or serious bodily harm? I mean I clearly remember in our class and in forum threads all over the place stating that deadly force cannot be used to defend the theft of property and things of such nature, but according to what these people are saying, you can "shoot to kill" after having made a citizens arrest if you believe someone was about to commit a felony and they try to escape.

Correct me if Im wrong, and I know Im speaking of another states laws here, but a carry permit does not give someone police powers in Tn and therefore if you tried this here you would probably be arrested yourself, but not so in SC?

Just sounded a little weird to me is all. Curious to what others may think. The thread is here.

SC Citizen's Arrest for Simple Assault

Edited March 3, 2011 by BlackHawk93

[memphisjim]

no idea but if any state were to have it that way it would be south carolina

[Fallguy]

In TX you can use deadly force to protect property...you can even use deadly force to protect a 3rd persons property in TX.

So simply put...Yes, the law is different from state to state.

So No...it doesn't greatly surprise me that that is the law in SC.

As far as "Police Powers" citizens of the state of TN have "almost" the same powers of arrest that a LEO does, whether the person has a HCP or not.

[BlackHawk93]

In TX you can use deadly force to protect property...you can even use deadly force to protect a 3rd persons property in TX.

So simply put...Yes, the law is different from state to state.

So No...it doesn't greatly surprise me that that is the law in SC.

As far as "Police Powers" citizens of the state of TN have "almost" the same powers of arrest that a LEO does, whether the person has a HCP or not.

While some people post comments here to add their opinion of what the thread covers, others seem to try and make themselves sound superior to the OP's comments or to try and shoot down one's opinions.

You obviously had no good intentions of commenting other than to try and make yourself appear superior in your knowledge of all things lawful. It's been proven that these people have very low self esteem. But your comment that "As far as "Police Powers" citizens of the state of TN have "almost" the same powers of arrest that a LEO does, whether the person has a HCP or not." couldn't be farther from the truth.

Im sure you will have more negative comments to share, some will no doubt attack me, as your first one tried to do. Or you'll no doubt speak to your superior knowledge of anything and everything.

It's a shame that we can't come here to discuss things politely.

.

Edited March 3, 2011 by BlackHawk93

[monkeylizard]

[D3vo]

[Punisher84]

While some people post comments here to add their opinion of what the thread covers, others seem to try and make themselves sound superior to the OP's comments or to try and shoot down one's opinions.

You obviously had no good intentions of commenting other than to try and make yourself appear superior in your knowledge of all things lawful. It's been proven that these people have very low self esteem. But your comment that "As far as "Police Powers" citizens of the state of TN have "almost" the same powers of arrest that a LEO does, whether the person has a HCP or not." couldn't be farther from the truth.

Im sure you will have more negative comments to share, some will no doubt attack me, as your first one tried to do. Or you'll no doubt speak to your superior knowledge of anything and everything.

It's a shame that we can't come here to discuss things politely.

.

Are you serious? Dude you need to chill out. Fallguy is stating fact. Just because your ass in uninformed you don't need to act like a dick.

Citizens in the state of TN can use reasonable force to detain a person committing a misdemeanor or if they believe they have committed a felony. I know the law. I use it daily. I've cleared many arrests as a security officer here in Memphis. All upheld by the court. So why don't you settle down and quit talking out of your ass?

[DaveTN]

Many states had “Fleeing forcible felony†statutes. In Illinois we could shoot fleeing forcible felons until the early 80’s. But not anymore.

My own personal requirements for using deadly force will (I believe) past muster in all 50 states. I would not want to go to trial for shooting someone that was fleeing and was no danger.

I think my knowledge and experience of “all things lawful†is probably greater than Fallguy’s…. Does that mean I have low self-esteem?

[Oh Shoot]

While some people post comments here to add their opinion of what the thread covers, others seem to try and make themselves sound superior to the OP's comments or to try and shoot down one's opinions. ...

Lighten up, Francis.

I think you are too thin skinned to be on a forum.

Or perhaps just too paranoid, since FG's comments not only did not attack you in any way, but were both on-topic and accurate.

- OS

[monkeylizard]

Does that mean I have low self-esteem

Only if you speak about your superior knowledge of anything and everything. Then, apparently, yes it does.

This thread oozes awesomeness.

[Fallguy]

While some people post comments here to add their opinion of what the thread covers, others seem to try and make themselves sound superior to the OP's comments or to try and shoot down one's opinions.

You obviously had no good intentions of commenting other than to try and make yourself appear superior in your knowledge of all things lawful. It's been proven that these people have very low self esteem. But your comment that "As far as "Police Powers" citizens of the state of TN have "almost" the same powers of arrest that a LEO does, whether the person has a HCP or not." couldn't be farther from the truth.

Im sure you will have more negative comments to share, some will no doubt attack me, as your first one tried to do. Or you'll no doubt speak to your superior knowledge of anything and everything.

It's a shame that we can't come here to discuss things politely.

.

I'm sorry if you feel as if I attacked you or tried to be superior...that was not my intention. I thought my comments were right on topic, especially compared to post I've seen in many other threads.

I did give a bit of background information, but I thought the last line of my post directly addressed your orginal question.

When I talk about powers of arrest, I'm not talking about the ability to use deadly force during an arrest..that is two seperate issues.

So as not to appear long winded etc... If you'd like to look up the laws in TN you can go to www.michie.com/tennessee The laws on citizens arrest are §§ 40-7-109 — 40-7-115 with the use of deadly force during an arrest at § 39-11-621 The laws on an arrest by a LEO are § 40-7-103 with the use of deadly force at § 39-11-620

Granted one big difference between an arrest by a LEO and a Citizen is the amount of libialty each personally has if there is a problem with the arrest.

I thought the main purpose of an internet forum is to share information. If sharing information that I have to others that may not know it makes it appear I am attempting to be superior, I'm not sure what else to do.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Fallguy

[Fallguy]

I think my knowledge and experience of “all things lawful†is probably greater than Fallguy’s….

Yes you do think that don't you....

[daddyo]

While some people post comments here to add their opinion of what the thread covers, others seem to try and make themselves sound superior to the OP's comments or to try and shoot down one's opinions.

You obviously had no good intentions of commenting other than to try and make yourself appear superior in your knowledge of all things lawful. It's been proven that these people have very low self esteem. But your comment that "As far as "Police Powers" citizens of the state of TN have "almost" the same powers of arrest that a LEO does, whether the person has a HCP or not." couldn't be farther from the truth.

Im sure you will have more negative comments to share, some will no doubt attack me, as your first one tried to do. Or you'll no doubt speak to your superior knowledge of anything and everything.

It's a shame that we can't come here to discuss things politely.

.

I'd call this something of an overreaction...

[Dolomite_supafly]

Lighten up, Francis.

I think you are too thin skinned to be on a forum.

Or perhaps just too paranoid, since FG's comments not only did not attack you in any way, but were both on-topic and accurate.

- OS

And this forum is a pretty mild forum compared to some.

There are other sites out there that would have had the OP curled up in the fetal position, thumb in his mouth, crying for his mommy if he was upset by what Fallguy said to him.

Dolomite

[Guest 270win]

In Arkansas, it is legal to use deadly force to stop burglary or arson of a building. There is no 'fear of life/bodily harm' requirement in the statute. You do not have to retreat from a burglar or an arsonist. Burglary and arson are both felonies in Arkansas.

I believe the Texas deal is theft at night. I cannot recall but there is some deal where you can use deadly force down there if you feel that you can't recover property that involves theft at night. Burglary and arson i'm sure are bad ideas down there.

A lot of states just list offenses like burglary, arson, carjacking, kidnapping, etc. that people can use deadly force against to stop the incident.

[Fallguy]

I believe the Texas deal is theft at night. I cannot recall but there is some deal where you can use deadly force down there if you feel that you can't recover property that involves theft at night. Burglary and arson i'm sure are bad ideas down there.

That is part of it... The text of the law can be seen here PENAL CODE  CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

[JayC]

Exactly what powers of arrest do you think police officers have in TN, that regular citizens do not?

I'm positive Fallguy can backup his claim by quoting the exact laws... So please take the time to back up your claim he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Keep in mind, he's not talking about power to legally use deadly force to effect the arrest, nor is he talking about liability protections from making a mistake while making an arrest. He's talking about the ability to make a citizens arrest in the vast majority of cases where a law enforcement officer can.

While some people post comments here to add their opinion of what the thread covers, others seem to try and make themselves sound superior to the OP's comments or to try and shoot down one's opinions.

You obviously had no good intentions of commenting other than to try and make yourself appear superior in your knowledge of all things lawful. It's been proven that these people have very low self esteem. But your comment that "As far as "Police Powers" citizens of the state of TN have "almost" the same powers of arrest that a LEO does, whether the person has a HCP or not." couldn't be farther from the truth.

Im sure you will have more negative comments to share, some will no doubt attack me, as your first one tried to do. Or you'll no doubt speak to your superior knowledge of anything and everything.

It's a shame that we can't come here to discuss things politely.

.

[VERO1]

Did someone put there panties on backwards tonight or what, Lighten up Francis + 27!

[Guest mds3d]

Reviewing the laws provided by Fallguy, the laws on arrest without a warrant by a LEO or Private Citizen seem almost the same (in fact some of the wording is identical). The biggest difference seems to be when the THREAT of deadly force is allowed. A LEO can use it any time it seems reasonable to affect an arrest, a private citizen can only use it in the same circumstances that would actually allow deadly force to be used.

That being said. I think I would support a change in law that put TN closer to SC law than it is, but maybe not all the way there. I would like TN law to allow the threat of Deadly force in the event of a citizen's arrest that would be justified provided the arrest is ruled reasonable (even if the arrested turned out to be innocent).

[RobertNashville]

While some people post comments here to add their opinion of what the thread covers, others seem to try and make themselves sound superior to the OP's comments or to try and shoot down one's opinions.

You obviously had no good intentions of commenting other than to try and make yourself appear superior in your knowledge of all things lawful. It's been proven that these people have very low self esteem. But your comment that "As far as "Police Powers" citizens of the state of TN have "almost" the same powers of arrest that a LEO does, whether the person has a HCP or not." couldn't be farther from the truth.

Im sure you will have more negative comments to share, some will no doubt attack me, as your first one tried to do. Or you'll no doubt speak to your superior knowledge of anything and everything.

It's a shame that we can't come here to discuss things politely.

.

There have been times I've disagreed with FallGuy but even when he's pointed out the error of my thinking I've never felt for a moment that he was coming across or trying to coming across as "superior".

Direct...yes. Sometimes irritatingly direct...yes. But not in a condescending way.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Reviewing the laws provided by Fallguy, the laws on arrest without a warrant by a LEO or Private Citizen seem almost the same (in fact some of the wording is identical). The biggest difference seems to be when the THREAT of deadly force is allowed. A LEO can use it any time it seems reasonable to affect an arrest, a private citizen can only use it in the same circumstances that would actually allow deadly force to be used.

That being said. I think I would support a change in law that put TN closer to SC law than it is, but maybe not all the way there. I would like TN law to allow the threat of Deadly force in the event of a citizen's arrest that would be justified provided the arrest is ruled reasonable (even if the arrested turned out to be innocent).

I would go a bit farther and allow deadly force to protect property from theft. Maybe set a maximum dollar amount such as $1,000 in total value before deadly force can be used. Maybe set it up so a felony theft could be prevented with deadly force but misdemeanor you can't. That way if some young kid decided to steal a yard ornamnet it wouldn't cost him his life but if someone is stealing a car then deadly force should be able to be used.

And before all the bleeding hearts say something about killing someone over an object, if the bad guy wasn't involved in stealing something then they wouldn't be in postitoin to be shot.

It is just so sad that thieves are able to get away with so much. And even if they are caught sentences are so light that there is no incentive to stop. I know of a friend who has had a relatives property broken into several times. They tell thieves to just leave because it is pretty much fruitless to pursue it any more. Even the local store will not prosecute shoplifters any longer. In speaking with the owner by the time they pay an employee to go to court a few times it costs the store more than it is worth because in almost every case the thieves are relased on unsupervised probation. There was even a worker who embezzled over $60,000 by illegally charging up gift cards but never ringing them up. She was caught and plead guilty to everything. She was sentenced to 3 years unsupervised probation. She was also ordered to pay restitution but after her conviction she said she was no longer able to work because of a mental condition caused by her being caught. She also said she was unable to find work because no one wanting to hire a thief.

Thieves are the most disturbing people I can think of. My family, specifically my father, has stolen from me in the past. I let it slide but I no longer will because I am tired of their ways.

Dolomite

[RobertNashville]

I truly hope that I never have to kill anyone.

I WILL kill if I must to protect my own life or the live of another innocent.

I will NOT kill someone over a piece of property whether the law allows me to do so or not.

[East_TN_Patriot]

As others have stated here, laws are different in each state, including those regarding the use of deadly force. Many states allow private citizens to make arrests, especially in felony cases. When I was a cop in Kentucky, it was lawful for a private citizen to use deadly force in various encounters including arson. Florida was not quite so open about use of deadly force to make a citizen's arrest, but citizen's arrest was definitely lawful in felonies. As one other post mentioned, case law (and now codified law) restricts the use of deadly force to apprehend felons except in cases where deadly force is the only way to apprehend a violent felon who poses an immediate grave risk to society if not apprehended immediately. It wouldn't surprise me if some states did extend this to private citizens. I do suspect that the liability associated with a private citizen using deadly force would be quite a bit higher. Finally, just because a state says you can, it doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

[robbiev]

Lighten up, Francis.

- OS

Edited March 5, 2011 by robbiev

[Guest TN_Mike]

While some people post comments here to add their opinion of what the thread covers, others seem to try and make themselves sound superior to the OP's comments or to try and shoot down one's opinions.

You obviously had no good intentions of commenting other than to try and make yourself appear superior in your knowledge of all things lawful. It's been proven that these people have very low self esteem. But your comment that "As far as "Police Powers" citizens of the state of TN have "almost" the same powers of arrest that a LEO does, whether the person has a HCP or not." couldn't be farther from the truth.

Im sure you will have more negative comments to share, some will no doubt attack me, as your first one tried to do. Or you'll no doubt speak to your superior knowledge of anything and everything.

It's a shame that we can't come here to discuss things politely.

.

Wow! I have seen some real over reactions in my day but I think this one is on the top 5 at least!