What teachers unions are really all about

[Guest buttonhook]

I never lumped ALL teachers into this group, but the vast majority fits in it nicely. If you'll go back and read, you'll se I made the statement that a quality teacher should make six figures. This will never happen as long as you let a union lump all of you together.

Now this just pegs the B.S. meter! Name one instance in which "the children" were considered in any union push.

What can I do? Also there are less than 20 kids per class here.

No offense taken. I enjoy a good discussion. I would appreciate it if you'd drop all the union rhetoric and have an actual discussion about this. Our public school system sucks. I do not blame the teachers. You are correct in saying that government regulations are crazy! WHat can we do about this? DOn't say support a union, because there's been a union for years, and the school system has gotten progressivly worse. It isn't the answer. If you have any serious ideas, I'd like to hear them, as I'm irate at the condition of our schools. I support our few good teachers, and would like to see more of them. I'd also like to see them rewarded.

One more question for you on the subject..... What, in your opinion, would be the best way to evaluate teacher performance?

ok really it is not the vast majority that fit this...it is the vast minority....most teachers really want to do the best for the kids...it's just all you hear about is the bad ones.

The union fought very very hard to against the NCLB laws because we could see that the children are not one size fits all! in fact if not for the teachers union the NCLB laws would be much more anti-student...right now they are not about the student but really just a way to rank schools..the idea behind NCLB is a good one and we dont want any child left behind but we also know that not every child learns at the same rate..the NCLB doesn't allow for that difference it's more of a more size fits all solution which just doesn't work when your dealing with people.

Ok what can you do? well there's only 20 kids per class (then your lucky) now if you've ever sat down with your child and tried to teach them anything you know how long it can take... and that is if your child is the average student now mulitply by 20!! there is just not enough time in the day to make sure every student understands everything...on top of that we also have to do the required paperwork the government wants on every student... plus any unforseen problems that arise...it's just over whelming and sometimes impossible...My recommendation is to go down to your school and ask them what they need...most will tell you...if you can help even one day a week or month it will help all of the students (everyone has something they can do to help)...We will never tell a parent that really wants to help us NO!! I promise..if your childs teacher doesn't want help go to the pricipal ask them were they need help...there is always help needed somewhere at sometime...I promise you will get as much out of it as the kids do!

I think we need to find out where each kid is when they start and where they are when they leave a class. Not an across the board to the same standard but a standard which is measured in the amount of improvement each student has each year (because some students learn more slowly)...then and only then can a pattern of learning be made that you could measure and compare against the prev. years improvment by students/teachers...trust me as teachers we know which teachers do a good job and which ones dont...becuase we see the end result the next year and you can tell how much they learned or didn't learn! Also we should not be handcuffed into saying "you need more time to improve" instead of just sending them on to the next teacher...with the NCLB laws we are basically forced to to just that send them on whether they know the stuff or not becuase if we dont we will lose our federal funding.

Edited February 27, 2011 by buttonhook

[Guest buttonhook]

Buttonhook! You are an example of getting involved and that is laudable to no end. That's what

more people should do, instead of shuffling their kids into a broke school system every day and

hoping for the best. We took a different approach with our kids and put them in a private school

where we knew the values wouldn't be totally dictated by the federal school system. They turned

out quite well. We were also well involved and engaged in their education because we had a direct

financial involvement and knew the teachers. It was the way we could get involved because we

didn't have the time like you chose to do.

The key word is "choice" in the way you approached your situation and we ours. The several times

we went to the PTO meetings and observed the way things were done in the one year our sons

went to public school, we were left with too many disappointments, which made our choice for us.

The problem with public schools is more complex than just the union's involvement. It also includes

the vast number of people who consider everything an entitlement, nowadays, and expect things

to happen without that involvement. They expect the state to provide for them, instead of them

providing for themselves. When you mix those with people like yourself, you find the system over

taxed and breaking up with nowhere to go but destruction. Societal values have added to the problem

and the union has, in my opinion, done nothing but push toward dumbing down of the teacher and

student. That's not a solution and you know it. It is a system that can not be maintained, but for people

like you and Daniel's wife. I doubt that a soul on this forum is criticizing you or her. I know I'm not.

Drewsett was the first one to mention the use of vouchers, and in Washington, DC, it was considered a

success by the families and students that were allowed to participate in it. the NEA came out strongly

against this, along with the democrats and Obama, so it was cancelled. I wonder why? Because it was

innovation and took money out of the coffers that fed the union, and I won't get into the other reason.

You are doing what you do for the right reason, and that is laudable. I am proud of you. Make no mistake!

You also have a huge noose around your neck until you get the will of the people to see the innovations

that can improve the education system so that people can be taught honestly and provide for our country's

future generations without political influence. The NEA, in it's present form is no different from the AFL-CIO.

Check out who they ally themselves with. You know that answer. That's most of the problem most people

have with unions. Communism. I know you don't align yourself with that.

Honestly I'm not happy with all of the choices that the NEA/TEA makes...however Our local system union is made up of teachers like myself who are more interested in the students than we are ourselves to a certain extent...but without the backing of the NEA/TEA will will lose any power we have to change things locally for the better...Please also understand that I've never been a huge union guy, but in this case I can see the how it helps us locally...I consider the word UNION as it is applied to our local group of teachers to be inaccurate...I consider ourselves a just a group of expert citizens who have formed together for the good of the community. BTW I am a product of the community I work in as are alot of my fellow "union" members and we want to do what is best for us, the students and the community

Edited February 27, 2011 by buttonhook

[Guest 6.8 AR]

On a local level, I'm in total agreement with you. It's that political level that you and I aren't associated with

that screws it all up. That's the so called national and the term they like to use"international" level where

the problem usually lies. Your union is no different from mine. People do make the difference, like you, that is.

Those people up the ladder, if you will, are nothing more than a paperweight on the stack of ideas that seem

to never get seen or used, mostly for the wrong reasons.

There is going to be turmoil within your union for some time to come. I hope people like you and Daniel's wife

prosper while the problems get resolved. The solution to the problem lies somewhere outside the realm of a union.

Even some of the original union leaders realized the problem when communism and progressivism approached

their doorsteps. It wasn't what they were looking for, either.

[gregintenn]

YOu've made several good points in your last post, buttonhook. No Child Left Behind, as I see it, is a failure. How do we get rid of it? You are probably correct, also, in saying that I should go to our schools and offer to volunteer. I was not aware that a person could do this. I've always gotten the impression that I should give them money and stay the heck out of the way. The only knowledge I have on the subject is first hand experience. I don't wish to give the impression that I know a lot about it; just what I've witnessed.

I guess I'm lucky, as both my children are straight "A" students. Their problem is that they aren't challenged, and become bored waiting on the children who have learning problems. I don't think my children should be neglected because they aren't learning "challenged".

[Guest buttonhook]

again if a real solution could be found without the union I would be all for that as well...but for now I dont see that happening so I will support what I think is the best way to change things for the better until something better comes along.....I just want everyone to understand that its not a "union" thing but a 'what is best" thing! it just so happens that the union is the way to make changes right now

[Guest buttonhook]

YOu've made several good points in your last post, buttonhook. No Child Left Behind, as I see it, is a failure. How do we get rid of it? You are probably correct, also, in saying that I should go to our schools and offer to volunteer. I was not aware that a person could do this. I've always gotten the impression that I should give them money and stay the heck out of the way. The only knowledge I have on the subject is first hand experience. I don't wish to give the impression that I know a lot about it; just what I've witnessed.

I guess I'm lucky, as both my children are straight "A" students. Their problem is that they aren't challenged, and become bored waiting on the children who have learning problems. I don't think my children should be neglected because they aren't learning "challenged".

Greg I teach alot of very gifted children...I'm very lucky!! (I just got back from a week meeting with some of the brightest kids in our state so brite that the DOD has supported their research) but I also have a mixed bag sometimes also....I know that if I had someone to help me with the "slower" children I could cover more material in the same amount of time and therefor help those gifted children ( and all of the children) learn a greater amount than they would have otherwise....

and yes money does help but the problems we have can't all be fixed by throwing money at it (which seems to be the fix all dont you know) we NEED help from the parents...ask the teacher if there is anything extra that you could work on with your children at home! I'm sure they will be more than glad to offer their support back to you! We all love it when kids really "GET IT"... and who knows with your help your kids might learn to help other as well when your not able too. It really a circle of help! we help them so they can help someone else! I tell my student all the time "your education is what you make of it"

Edited February 27, 2011 by buttonhook

[gregintenn]

My children are often drafted into helping some of the slower students, grading papers, etc. I don't see that as fair to my children. Do you?

[Guest buttonhook]

YES!! because they will learn more and have a greater understanding of the material after helping the other children and using the lesson in the "real world" than they would have by not helping...By helping the other children it allows them to see the problems/solutions from a different perspective which will reinforce what they have all ready learned!! In fact it is a great teaching tool for the more advance kids!! We use peer tutors all the time...also sometime the slower students can understand the problem better when it is approched in a different way from the teacher...some kids learn differently than others...also it almost always leads the advance student to ask question about the lesson!

Edited February 27, 2011 by buttonhook

[gregintenn]

I never really looked at it that way. I'm not sure I agree, but it is something to consider. Thanks.

[Guest buttonhook]

greg I'm not blowing smoke...it really does work...the student dont really understand it...but they almost always show a greater understanding afterwards also anytime you can add hands on training along with the lesson they will retain the lesson much longer! plus it also adds to their self-worth and their position as a leader within the classroom.

think of it this way...when you want to remember someone name that you just meet what should you do? try to use it as soon as possible.. same with math, spelling, reading, etc...by helping the other students they are using what they have learned as soon as possible...they will remember it better and longer afterwards

Edited February 27, 2011 by buttonhook

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The only way an altruistic idea like "No Child Left Behind" could ever be successful is to get the altruism

out of the way. It was a huge mistake for Bush to get that passed. It was one of his many "feel good"

moments that is regrettable. Usually when something feels good, you later need antacids.

When you guys see that the solution is in the individual's domain and the individual decides to act on it,

like those founder guys wanted, the problem will be a lot closer. Unions are nothing more than grouping

problems and acceding to someone who sounds like he knows the answer, but guts your life away, one

nibble at a time, so slowly that you don't realize it until your damned near dead. The individual understands

the need for self preservation without all the fuss. Self preservation is the ultimate motivator. You got involved,

but was it altruism or a self interest? I suspect by your posts it was self interest. Keep it that way. Groups

are dangerous for that one reason. They forget their reason for existence a lot of times.

[G27]

I never really looked at it that way. I'm not sure I agree, but it is something to consider. Thanks.

Absolutely the truth - nothing shows how well you understand something and helps you grasp it better than teaching someone else. We homeschool our kids and one of the ways we ensure they understand something is have them 'teach it back to us'.

It benefits your children more than you probably know...

[Guest buttonhook]

i think the teachers at your childs school are doing better than you give them credit for

[mav]

I was pretty much done with this thread, but reading the last several pages have left me scratching my head. I was going to comment on the some inconsistencies that I have read, but I had a change of heart. I feel that it would be inappropriate in such a venue as this, and it would do nothing to further the conversation.

However, I will cite an example that furthers the argument that the unions, not just the teacher's union, have got to go. As I was reading some news this afternoon, I ran across an artcle that was discussing Richard Trumka's plan to stimulate the economy and create jobs. For those of you who do not know, Richard Trumka is the head of the AFL-CIO. He is also one of Obama's advisors whom by his own admission speaks to someone in the White House everyday.

Trumka's plan to stimulate the economy and decrease the unemployment rate is accomplished by none other than raising taxes. I bet none of you would have guessed that. Trumka wants to raise the federal gas tax and create a financial transaction tax, in which financial institutions will be taxed on every transaction they make. Even if we were in a vibrant economy, Trumka's plans are a terrible idea, and considering the current condition of our economy, they are downright stupid.

With ever increasing oil/gas prices and this administration's complete block on drilling and development of existing energy sources, raising the federal gas tax is nothing more than complete idiocy. Raising the gas tax will be devasting to a lot of people. Not only will the price at the pump go up, everything else will increase in price as well. This will be a double whammy on our wallets and pocketbooks.

Trumka states, "We need a dedicated source or revenue to create infrastructure in this country." He also states, "We need to create jobs. The best way to do that is through infrastructure development." I have to admit that I was sort of stunned while reading this article. Does Trumka believe that we, the taxpayers, are walking around with our heads up our a$$? My response to Mr. Trumka would read like the following.

Mr. Trumka, there are those within our society that do pay attention to all things political. We realize that union membership has declined significantly over the last decade. We are fully aware that your plan is nothing more than a ploy to create more union members, thereby replenishing your dwindling coffers and increase your political influence. We also remember that President Obama and his ilk stuck it to us taxpayers with a $626 billion dollar stimulus package that was supposed to be for infrastructure and "shovel-ready jobs." Two years after the passage of the stimulus, President Obama was asked about the infrastructure spending. He ackowledged that, despite his campaign promises, "there's no such thing as shovel-ready projects." As evidenced by the last election, we, the tax-paying american public have awoken to the corruption that is within the unions and in Washington. We are determined to root out that corruption before it destroys us as a nation. Mr. Trumka, your plans would be disastrous for this country. So in short, go sell crazy somewhere else, we are all stocked up here.

In regards to Trumka's financial transaction tax, he states that it will not take money out of the pockets of the middle class. I guess I am too cynical to think that the financial instituions will just absorb that tax and not pass it along to its customers.

I don't habor any anymosity towards teachers or other public service employees. In fact, I believe that those public service employees who do care and excel within their field represent some of the best of society. However, there are some within the public service sector that I wouldn't give a squirt of pi$$ if they were on fire.

I guess what I would really like to see is for the unions and primarily the federal government relinquish their stranglehold on numerous sectors within our economy and turn those sectors over to the private industry. This is the only way that I know to solve the problem of corruption that is draining us financially. Utlimately I would like to see a lot of the public sector, including teachers, work under the same auspices as the private sector, where competition is encouraged and rewards can be generous for those who succeed.

Unless we can come to some kind of consensus as to how we can truly fix our financial problems, we will continue this spiraling decline until we reach reach the point of having more people receiving from the government instead of contributing. This will ultimately lead to a default. If that happens, those SHTF scenarios that we ruminate about on this forum might very well become reality.

Edited February 28, 2011 by mav
typo

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

This thread has to be by far one of the best I have ever read here.

Thank You to all who have contributed. Personally I don't have an answer to the problem but I will share some of my somewhat related thoughts.

For some background; I pulled my kids out of the public system here, not because of the teachers but because the teacher's hands were tied by a School Board that simply does not care about our kids or their education and administrations that only are concerned with making the school board happy. My kids have had teachers that were some of the best I have ever seen in my lifetime and a couple that were not worth the air that they breath.

It has been 3 years ago for the oldest and the youngest two are now in their second year of homeschooling. Homeschooling is both one of the hardest things I have ever done and one of the most rewarding. I have managed this year to get them into a twice a week private school that does help quite a lot. If I could afford it they would go to a private school full time but I simply can not so my wife and I work with what we have.

My wife also has a Masters degree in Education and while most of our married life she has not needed to work, I was shocked when she returned at how little the pay was for someone with a 6 year degree. I had been in construction most all my life and her masters degree paid about the same as a good general laborer working for a good paying contractor. I had painters on my crew that I paid more than she made. She did have some benefits but they are very minimal in Madison County.

But as others have said she didn't become a teacher to get rich, she did it because both her parents had done it and she wanted to do it and loved working with the kids. It is irrelevant to this discussion but she is now very sick and has not been able to work for the past few years. She still talks of returning to teaching but sadly I seriously doubt that she will ever be able to. We do however make a really good team for home schooling with my High School diploma and country fried street smarts and her expensive degree.

One of the things that has been mentioned that I can sure testify to is the lack of support from most of the parents of the kids within the system. I know this because I was one who DID show up and help out, and while to me it was really no big deal to do the things I did like bring snacks and pizzas and such things for parties and extra supplies for the classroom one would have though I was some kind of King when I walked into those buildings. Many times I was the only parent helping to support something the classes were doing. The teachers told me as much and told me over and over again how thankful they were. All the kids whether they were in my kid's classes or not knew me and a lot of them wanted to give Mr. Joe a hug every time they saw me. I was humbled by that type of treatment, even with my wife telling me how little the parents cared or participated I did not really realize the extent of it all until I saw it firsthand and was treated like royalty for doing what I considered such simple things.

But the one thing that has bothered me the most in this thread is the multiple mentions of the kids not having anything to eat over the weekends. (I'm sorry but the thought of hungry kids stabs this Ole man dead in the heart)

This also pretty much goes hand in hand with the non-existent parents in the classroom because for a lot (a majority here) the parents are non-existent at home also. I will not even go into some of the horror stories that I have heard that some of these kids face when they get home. It is enough to just say that for some of them that school is the safest place they are ever at and any attention paid to them there is all they ever feel.

But what I mostly wanted to mention is that here we have a program that I believe is simply called "snack bags" it is funded by several local charities and the program sends home a bag of food with each child that is on reduced or free lunches, again this is the majority of the kids in this system. Other volunteers such as myself for a couple years go and pick up the bags on Fridays and deliver them to the schools to be sent home with the kids over the weekends.

Sadly for a LOT of them this IS the only thing they have to eat for the entire weekend due to the lack of responsible parents. I have known of a few kids who took it on themselves to ask for a bag for a younger pre-school aged sibling and their requests were met. Are some abusing this?....I am sure some are, just as with everything else these days but I really feel that most are not. Exactly how this is funded I am not sure other than by various charities. I gave small cash donations and like I said delivered the bags to the schools my kids were in and on a few occasions to some that they were not. Other folks did the same.

I mention this program so that Buttonhook and the other teachers who have mentioned this problem may can look into setting up such a program in their areas. If somehow I can be of any help, if only in getting more information about our program please feel free to contact me. As I've said I've got no answer for the whole Union, Govt. Unions and teachers thing but if there is anything I can do to help feed a hungry kid and thus make it a bit easier for them to learn while they are at school I would be happy to help with that.

So while I don't have an answer, my opinion is that even if one is teaching for the love of teaching that some of them should be paid better and some of them paid less while others should be shown the door. This should all be based on performance and not an across the board rate. Our Govt. should either step out or at least step aside and let the teachers teach the subjects rather than having them teach to a standard test. I think the NCLB idea had good intentions but has failed drastically and should be abandoned.

My thoughts on the matter for our country is the same as my philosophy of teaching my own kids, which is that Reading Comprehension is #1, first and foremost and if those skills are high then all other subjects can be much easier learned by using those reading skills.

For our country as a whole it is the same principle, Education needs to become our #1 priority and once it is and we get the point of having the best education system in the world, solving all of the other problems that we face as a Nation will become that much easier by our kids using that education.

I do realize that is much easier said than done but IMO it MUST be done, we HAVE to fix our education system in order to fix our country.

Again I am sorry to wander off the topic a bit but I do want to thank all of you and a special thanks to those of you who "teach our children" for a living, you all get the proverbial Big Red Apple from me.

[Guest Mad4rcn]

Great read !

[Guest buttonhook]

This thread has to be by far one of the best I have ever read here.

Thank You to all who have contributed. Personally I don't have an answer to the problem but I will share some of my somewhat related thoughts.

But what I mostly wanted to mention is that here we have a program that I believe is simply called "snack bags" it is funded by several local charities and the program sends home a bag of food with each child that is on reduced or free lunches, again this is the majority of the kids in this system. Other volunteers such as myself for a couple years go and pick up the bags on Fridays and deliver them to the schools to be sent home with the kids over the weekends.

Sadly for a LOT of them this IS the only thing they have to eat for the entire weekend due to the lack of responsible parents. I have known of a few kids who took it on themselves to ask for a bag for a younger pre-school aged sibling and their requests were met. Are some abusing this?....I am sure some are, just as with everything else these days but I really feel that most are not. Exactly how this is funded I am not sure other than by various charities. I gave small cash donations and like I said delivered the bags to the schools my kids were in and on a few occasions to some that they were not. Other folks did the same.

I mention this program so that Buttonhook and the other teachers who have mentioned this problem may can look into setting up such a program in their areas. If somehow I can be of any help, if only in getting more information about our program please feel free to contact me. As I've said I've got no answer for the whole Union, Govt. Unions and teachers thing but if there is anything I can do to help feed a hungry kid and thus make it a bit easier for them to learn while they are at school I would be happy to help with that.

we do have something like that here as well

[Worriedman]

A perspective from a different group of Educators.

2/28/2011 - Debating Tenure Reform - Opinion - Chattanoogan.com

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That's an interesting article. Thanks!

[Guest nicemac]

I missed the last several days of this thread. I had a funeral out of town and have been offline. It has been interesting to read (in bulk) comments posted over the past few days. Thank you all for keeping it civil (while still engaging).