What teachers unions are really all about

[Raoul]

Summary for teachers 2010

The administrators average - $77,857.02

Here's a big part of the problem with education, and I don't just mean the salary.

[bubbadavis]

Here's a big part of the problem with education, and I don't just mean the salary.

IMO, the biggest problem with education is trying to educate those with no interest (or parental interest) in getting educated. You can't make someone participate in learning. If the desire isn't there, they aren't going to learn. A side effect is they distract from those that are interested in learning.

My parents made sure I was interested/participated in learning in grade/middle/high school. In that respect, I was very lucky. Of course, my Mother wondered if I was ever going to leave college and get a real job. She thought I was a tenured student!

[Guest Drewsett]

The best solution I have seen proposed for fixing our public schools is a voucher system.

For example, it costs Davidson County 6k per student per year to educate them. Instead of assigning schools based upon addresses, Davidson County would send 6k check per child to their parents. The checks could be redeemed only at a school. The school could be run out of someone's basement, it could be a current public school or a private school. The best schools would get the most students, the best teachers would receive the most compensation. The best of the best would have their own schools, accepting the students they choose to.

I don't have a whole lot of time to sit down and explain all of this, but would be happy to respond to any challenges or questions. This is a free market solution that would end in better education and better compensation for the best teachers. The reasons the unions fight voucher programs is because the crappy teachers that pay the most dues (because in my experience good teachers are few and far between) would be out of a job.

[Will Carry]

I agree that what we really need is better educated children. I have a problem, not with teachers salaries, not with unions but with this "No Child Left Behind" policy. I the real world slow runners get left behind by fast runners. Dumb kids get left behind by smart kids. I am no genious. I wasn't the smartest kid in school but I do have other traits that have served me well. Instead of going to Vanderbuilt, I went to Nashville State Technical Institute. Instead of being a brain surgeon, I work on Bioreactors. That's just the way it is. Holding the smart kids back until the dumb kids catch up, is stupid.

Friday my company got sold to the Japanese! Fuji Films bought us. I guess we'll be doing jump'in jacks every morning. There will be plenty of rice in the break room.........

[Guest buttonhook]

buttonhook... make me feel a little better. Tell me your subjects are not English, grammar, spelling, or punctuation.

Engineering/physics def. not spelling or english (I'm the first to say my grammar SUCKS!!)

BTW I went from making almost 6 figures a year to $28K before taxes my first year teaching (I make a little more now not much ).....I didn't do it for the money (trust me) I did it because someone once a long time ago helped me and I wanted to do the same for someone else, I'm not worried about losing my job because I cant find work else where (i can find another one) but I do benifit from the union. The union doesn't keep bad teachers from losing their jobs....they make it harder for admin to pull a political move and fire or move a teacher with out cause. If they have cause they can and will fire you and the union will not back you up!

For the statement that said only the lazy teacher like the union...that is BS. I work 11 1/2 months a year without an extended contract so I get paid for 10 months (they divide my 10 month pay by 12 so I get a check in the summer). I have mentored students and they have been VERY VERY successful in both their lives after high school, during high school and many have received local, regional, state and NATIONAL Academic awards (including 2 congressional appointments to the US military acad.)

The NCLB laws require us to meet min standards...instead of meeting min. standard we shouls meet maximum standards based on each child. Everyone wants to run the education system like a factory...well it's not! in a factory you can control your raw materials and have them meet a standard. with the same input you should be able to have the same output everytime and if the input doesn't meet a standard you can throw it out...try that with a student and see what happens. Every child should be allowed to maximize their own potental instead we make them conform to the group. Some kids can meet and exceed those standards and some kids can't it's not the teacher fault it's nature. I think we should help each child reach their max. ablity....but we spend more time trying to educate the unwilling or unable. There are many great things about our educational system but there are many things that suck also

Edited February 27, 2011 by buttonhook

[Guest buttonhook]

I know lots of folks in the couple of years who have had to take pay cuts so their employer could survive and they could keep their job, myself included. I know lots of teachers, good ones and not so good ones. I don't know any teachers who took pay or benefit cuts, most got raises each year(actually all of them, some more than others). The not so good ones got the same raises.

I can tell you I have not had a pay raise in three years....and my insurance costs have went up every year. and I make well Below the average. if you want a raise you will earn extra advanced degrees....Oh yeah and they require you to go to school to keep your job and they dont pay for that either.

Edited February 27, 2011 by buttonhook

[Spook]

Not really. In my business I have clients that have outsourced their CSR ordering system and help desk. Those jobs were not union to begin with. Now I get calls from people who have totally no clue what they asking about and often speak english so poorly I have to ask them to spell words or hope they can escalate it up to someone who only speaks really crappy english.

Capital follows cheap labor. If you don't want to support American workers it's certainly your right. Sure will be interesting when we finally go to war with China and we still have to buy steel from them.

Wasni't the steel workers union a big part of the reason for the fall of the steel industry in the U.S.?

[gregintenn]

I can tell you I have not had a pay raise in three years....and my insurance costs have went up every year. and I make well Below the average. if you want a raise you will earn extra advanced degrees....Oh yeah and they require you to go to school to keep your job and they dont pay for that either.

Cry me a river.....if you aren't satisfied there, find different employment! I've had my fill of teachers' bitching about how bad things are. If you ever get out here in the real world, you'll find that things are bad all over. A teaching degree is the easiest college degree to get. That, and the summer off, and you'll understand why every school has a room full of job applications. What I want is a teacher concerned with TEACHING my children something; not fundraising, or getting out of school early because of snow, or rain, or heat, or cold. There are a precious few quality teachers, and a plethora of sorry ones. I have no idea where you fit in, but your undying support of the teachers' union gives me a clue.

[Guest buttonhook]

Greg....what do you do for a living? Because you don't have a clue as to what I DO!!

If I ever get out into the real world? Did you not read my other posts or did I just not inform you well enough? I have been in the "real world" and most people couldn't survive in MY "real world" for long!

At no time did I ever say I had a teaching degree.....did I? In fact I do NOT have a degree in education (or I should say I did not have a degree in education) I do now! In fact I I have 4 degrees and I'm working on (2) more!! I hold bac. degrees in Science, arch. Design, Engineering, and Now Secondary Education.. oh and I graduated with honors!! Now I'm starting my MBA and masters of science in Mechanical Engineering this fall. And I do it all while teaching kids like YOURS full time. So how hard is it to earn the degrees I have??? go ahead and tell me those are easy to get also.........

Summers off??? when is that? I havn't seen a summer off since I began teaching 7-8 years ago....sure I dont go to "work" in the summer but I also don't get paid for the required summer "work" I do either and I "work" with students every summer, all summer, on my own time, at my own cost, many times at a cost to my own family!! So I tell you what you take what ever you make mulip. it by 5/6 and then still work the same amount of time..I bet you dont.......so if you make $40,000 (which I dont even make that) now you would now be paid $33,333 a year. According to my taxes this year I cleared $27,684 last year after taxes and before I spent any money on supplies or educational expenses. now take out about 10-20% of that for supplies just to do my job becuase we dont have the funds we need for the number of students we have. I'm not bitching about the pay becuase I chose it but dont bitch at me about how much we get paid to do a very very hard job that most of you would not do for more than a month!

When I get out in the real world!?!? As I have stated I didn't go to college to become a teacher (many of us "high school teachers" didn't). when I got the calling to become a teacher I was working as an Admin. for the GDOT and had worked in the private sector for many years before that designing schools! In fact I helped to design and recondition the schools YOUR kids go to.

In fact In order to qualify for my teaching lic. I had to show 5-7 years of work experience in the "real world" in the subject area I'm teaching before they would grant me an apprenticeship lic. I then had to work for 3 years as a teacher, complete 18 additional masters level hours, the state new teacher training, 12 formal evaluations, and then be rec. for tenure. So please dont preach to me about the REAL WORLD!

As far a the number of quality teacher go, I will admit there are some that need to find work else where (same as any other profession)...but there are far more quality teachers that spend more waking time with YOUR children than you do!! and most do all they can for YOUR children!! and while doing this we have to hear people wining and crying about the job we do!! If you don't think your children are getting the education they deserve then YOU educate them!! or maybe ask a teacher how YOU can help them to educate YOUR children better. I'm sure most would really be glad that you care enough to offer and most will gladly take YOUR help!

I may someday find different employment and go BACK to the "REAL WORLD"!! but it will not be because I cant teach or that I'm too lazy to teachYOUR kids!! It will be because in order to teach YOUR children we have to fundraise, beg for supplies, try to solve every students emotional problems, their drug problems, a bad home life, be the only responseable adult in their lives, spent our own money to make sure every student has the same chance, be a policeman, a warden, etc, etc. etc, ......

do you know why we get out of school for snow, heat, rain, etc.......? becuase if we didn't and YOUR kid got hurt/sick etc. parents like YOU would be the first one to sue us for not protecting your child!!

You know the main thing that we do is not teach....it is parent! Becuase we have too few really good/involved parents and too many bad/uninvolved parents who expect their child to learn everything they ever need to know from 8-3 m-f. And I have no idea where you fit in, but your undying lack of support for teachers gives me a clue!

for all that we do for the children of this state and country all we ask for is the public support in helping YOUR children and many times we dont get it....A real teacher didn't start teaching for a pay check...but we have to support own families also. (BTW I use much of my huge paycheck to help the kids I teach) many of us have to have a second job just to make up for what we spend on supplies for the kids!

If you want to have the best you have to be able to pay for the best...because right now ALOT of really really great teacher are out there getting jobs in the "real world" becuase they have been used up by by the system and without more support (not money! please hear me on that one but support!!) your going to see many more of the really quailty people going into a different field and not even entering teaching! Then what will you do when only the bad teachers remain!!??

BTW we would not even need a union if we got the support we needed from the parents and the community. So if you dont like the union fine....then YOU need to step up and make it so we dont need it. If YOU and everyone else who doesn't like the teachers union would step up I would gladly quit paying my dues and help to disolve the teachers union!

GREG one final thought....the fact that you can read, write, and carry on a conversation on this board tells me that not all teacher are doing a bad job.........or maybe YOUR parents were the good parents that cared enough about your education to do it theirselves

Edited February 27, 2011 by buttonhook

[strickj]

Kinda funny how we treat teachers like garbage. Then start bitching about not having anymore good teachers left.

I'm sure one is not related to the other at all...

"And that's all I've got to say about that."

[Guest buttonhook]

Kinda funny how we treat teachers like garbage. Then start bitching about not having anymore good teachers left.

I'm sure one is not related to the other at all...

"And that's all I've got to say about that."

i'm sure they're not

[cybernorris]

I haven't read this thread, but still want to put in 2 cents... in 1996 I moved to Madison, WI. In 1997 I really started paying attention to the local politics. It really is a different world. In 1998 I heard a teacher, who I knew had a masters degree, tell the school board that, "Without the union, I am nothing." At that moment I realized I did not want to raise a child in a Wisconsin public school. I don't remember the exact figures, but between the Federal mandates on their funds and the union contract, the school board could have influence over a tiny portion of the budget. Oh yeah, a school board is a property taxing authority in Wisconsin.

I am honestly surprised the protests have not had moments of violence, but there i still much more to go in the battle up there. The only times I've ever heard any person suggest direct violence against an elected official, it was by a Madison liberal against a conservative Republican. I probably should have reported all three incidents to the FBI.

Our daughter was born in 2005 and we moved back home to Tennessee in 2008. Our daughter will enter kindergarten this fall in a school system that I trust.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Hey, it's a Saturday night!

cybernorris, I somehow got that from the news about WI.

My wife went to a nursing seminar where one of the speakers was a well credentialed nurse

from NYC. When she got home she told me the first thing that nurse started off with, before her

lecture, was "Why aren't all of you unionized?". My wife and I thought those people up there

must be crazy.

[Will Carry]

Thanks Buttonhook!

[SavageSig]

The way I figure, if you could trust corporations and government, unions wouldn't have cropped up in the first place. All you have to do is look at third world countries (or former third world) or our own history to see that workers get exploited at every turn. Unions aren't perfect, but they can give the lowly working man a fairer shake than laissez faire.

Thanks Buttonhook. I think people crap on teachers because they figure they're just dealing with kids all day. And ignorant people like to crap the most.

And as for WI specifically, I think the governor lost all credibility when he turned down the Unions offer to take paycuts. If you're doing this to save money, then save the money. If you're doing this to bust up unions, then say so.

Edited February 27, 2011 by SavageSig

[Guest buttonhook]

thank you for your support....please tell/show any other teacher you know that you support them and see if they dont change for the better.

I will tell you the reason I do what I do...(its not money)

From time to time we see a kid who has quit on theirselves and they just dont try anymore they have started coasting through life and doing the bare min. then you spend just a little bit of extra time with that kid showing you care about them, (sometimes it's tough love!) helping them to graduate, be successful, and not allowing them to do the minimum. Then years later they come back with their young kids to thank you for caring about them when everyone else had given up and you know you've made a positive difference in their lives. Then you see their kids and you know that their lives have also been changed and you know they will have the same support you gave to their parents so now they can be successful too.

Sure we dont help every kid but If I can help just one then I've made a difference in the world forever and thats the "real world" we work in! most of you dont understand the lives these kids live! Many of them work before and after school just to support their younger bothers, sisters, mom and dad because their parents will not/can not work. Many only eat at school because they dont have any food at home and they dont eat anything on the weekends (kind of hard to study when your staving). Many have more problems that we cant imagine! So before you blame a teacher for what they dont do remember it is hard to get them to focus on education when they are just trying to survive till the next day. If you will look at the schools that dont perform very well you will see a direct link to how the student live and understand that many of the lowest performing schools are making the most difference in kids lives...it's not always about the ABC's and 123's or standerdized test scores/graduation rates it's about the amount of difference your making in the lives of the kids and I think that is the real problem with the education system...we are being forced more and more to only focus on test scores (or we lose our jobs) and we are not able to do the "real" job helping kids become productive adults and parents for the next generation!

Edited February 27, 2011 by buttonhook

[Steelharp]

buttonhook; having had time to read all this thread now, I just want to say kudos, and my hats' off to you. People like you should be the example for teachers. Your selflessness is an awesome gift. God bless you.

[gregintenn]

buttonhook, I work for the state as well. I haven't had a raise since you have. If it gets to the point where I think i'm not being trated fairly, I'll simply leave and do something else. I don't get on an internet forum and cry about it. I don't tell everyone what a hero I am, and that I'm being mistreated. I will leave. If you like teaching, teach. If it is as bad as you say, there are a world of other opportunities out there waiting for you. My youngest son has a wonderful teacher this year. My oldest son had a wonderful teacher in kindergarten. That's it! The rest of them haven't been worth the air they breathe. The entire time I attended public school, I had maybe one decent teacher. I've heard that old "if you can read, thank a teacher" crap until I could puke. I was reading proficiently before I entered kindergarten. I can say that I learned very little in the thirteen years I wasted in public school.

My children both attended a private preschool at a Methodist church, two half days a week for most of a year. My oldest son is in the sixth grade, and he learned a lot more in that preschool than in the entire time he's attended public school. Guess what? That preschool didn't have a union.

Buttonhook, Please don't think I'm simply picking on you, you may be a fine teacher; I don't know. I've heard these same old NEA/TEA talking points; word for word since I was five years old. Surely they could write some new ones every so often. The thing is that all of us have sacrifices to make. I'm willing to bet that there are very few, if any here who simply punch a clock, stay there 8 hours, punch out and go home.

Edited February 27, 2011 by gregintenn

[cybernorris]

I think the governor lost all credibility when he turned down the Unions offer to take paycuts. If you're doing this to save money, then save the money. If you're doing this to bust up unions, then say so.

Maybe he's trying to do a long term fix rather than a band-aid. Here's an example.... Madison Teachers Inc. (MTI) will allow only one insurance company, WPS Health Insurance, to provide their coverage. MTI repeatedly refused to allow the Madison School Board to even shop for for IDENTICAL coverage from a different provider, despite demonstrated savings to the school district. The head of MTI has been on the WPS board (not sure if he still is), IMHO a clear conflict of interest.

Only by restricting collective bargaining to wages can the Madison school system take common sense steps to reduce costs.

[Raoul]

I think that lots of good points are made in this thread. Some of it has been made personal, or at least was taken as being so, myself included. I get angry because I know how hard a good teacher has to work to do their job. A good teacher is rarely supported by their administration or school board because both groups have a political agenda. Parent cooperation and support is minimal.

At least in my wife's school, the population is the lowest performing group in the system with parents who aren't even able to help second graders with their homework. The kids usually have unstable home environments. They get no support, sometimes haven't eaten anything substantive over the weekend, and may have been allowed to stay up all night watching horror movies. You've got kids on meds, mothers with a new "uncle" in the house every few months, mothers going to jail, kids that move every few months, and some parent that don't even care to get them to school. How the hell does a school address all these issues? What's a fair way to rate a teacher that works in a school like that?

I know that these are the fears that teachers have. What they're asked to do and what they do to help their students is often above and beyond what should be expected.

I don't think most good teachers are particularly "good union people". The reality is that they have no other option at this time to offer them any protection within the system. I whole heartedly agree that there are people in education that shouldn't be there. My concern is that the rhetoric is painting the whole profession as a group that is entitled. I just don't think this is the reality.

The other thing I see is that all of us who work for a living are stressed. We're being asked to do more, work more and put up with more crap than is realistic. Between more damn taxes, more regulations, and companies desire for higher profits to satisfy Wall St the average working stiff has just about been squeezed into poverty. Free market capitalism is a great theory as long as the playing field is level for all groups. Based on the tax structure and regulation I'm not sure that's the case, and unions have certainly proven that they're just as susceptible to corruption as big business.

If I've made anybody angry please accept my apology.

[Guest buttonhook]

well greg it sounds like to me you need to help make some changes to help your kids education. if you are such an expert why dont you ask to be a sub for about two weeks and find out what is really going on....and the reason you keep hearing the same points is NO ONE in power listens to the people doing the job everyday....so nothing has changed and it will not change unless the poeple back the teachers!! We know what to do to help the kids...we know our kids!! we know our community!! we should be helping to solve the problem but we are being cut out of the solution and told it is our fault!!

BTW Im not a spokes person for the NEA/TEA (and I dont agree that all unions are needed they are not always the solution) however by bashing the union you are not solving whatever problems you may have with the system. It's just like any other government run org. The people in charge dont know what is really going on and the union is the only way we have to inform them. By taking that away we will lose any power at all to fix the problems we see everyday!!

BTW the preschool didn't need a union because they are not run by the government so they are able to teach what the kids need not what some pencil pusher in washington/nashville thinks they need. All we want is to do what is best for the kids. Now I dont know what you do for the state but I'm sure you dont want me making the rules you work by without knowing anything about what you do...right? well thats how it is for us...and I really want to help the kids (it is the only reason I'm still teaching) but It is becomeing much harder to do given the current climate. so please understand that I'm not bragging about what I do because there are many many many other teachers out there that do as much or more than I do, But every year more of our ability to help each kids (as they need) is taken away by the rules placed on us. We (the union) are not fight just for ourselves but for every child in the state!! becuase we KNOW what they need! and for the most part we KNOW how to help them get there. The union leadership (at least in our county) is made up of teachers not professional organizers so when we are fighting for our rights we are doing so with the knowledge that it will help us help the kids in our classrooms. Furthermore we are trying to change the face of education for the better...we know that not all students are getting what they need but we cant take the time to make sure that they do because we are forced to teach to a minimum standard which slows the pace of the more advanced students. we want the abilty to teach to the kids! not prepare them to take a "standard test" which doesn't allow for variation in learning styles or ablity. Not everyone is going to graduate in 12 years and a summer if they are getting what they need. but the state/national government says they WILL! we know it cant happen (not that we dont want it too) I would love for every student too come out of high school the top students in the world! but int he "real world" it just doesn't happen and cant happen. As a high school teacher I have some students who cant read!! now how did they get to high school if they cant read!! and now I'm being told I have to teach that student advanced math and science!! and they have to learn it in four years?? but in the previous 9 years they didn't even learn the basic skills needed.........

My rant is not to start a fight or brag on here but to inform all of those who think the teachers (and their union) are lazy and just coasting through for 30 years. It's just not the case!! We work really hard because we want to make a difference and change this world! but WE NEED YOUR HELP!! not your anger!! If you kids have bad teachers it maybe because they are overworked with 30+ students!! volunteer at your childs school (if even jjust reading to the class once a week or helping with simple math) it does help and makes a huge difference in their education!! Your child will be better for it...and every other child in that class will be better for it!! We need parents who really care and are willing to do something about it not just bitch about what is wrong (we know things are not perfect) which is why the union is trying so hard to keep our (the teacher) voice heard! SO help us help your kids!!

I too do not mean for any of this to be taken personal...greg I'm sorry but I had to use you as an example given our previous posts...so please dont think I'm directing this at only you!!

Edited February 27, 2011 by buttonhook

[gregintenn]

My rant is not to start a fight or brag on here but to inform all of those who think the teachers (and their union) are lazy and just coasting through for 30 years.

I never lumped ALL teachers into this group, but the vast majority fits in it nicely. If you'll go back and read, you'll se I made the statement that a quality teacher should make six figures. This will never happen as long as you let a union lump all of you together.

We (the union) are not fight just for ourselves but for every child in the state!!

Now this just pegs the B.S. meter! Name one instance in which "the children" were considered in any union push.

WE NEED YOUR HELP!! not your anger!! If you kids have bad teachers it maybe because they are overworked with 30+ students!!

What can I do? Also there are less than 20 kids per class here.

I too do not mean for any of this to be taken personal...greg I'm sorry but I had to use you as an example given our previous posts...so please dont think I'm directing this at only you!!

No offense taken. I enjoy a good discussion. I would appreciate it if you'd drop all the union rhetoric and have an actual discussion about this. Our public school system sucks. I do not blame the teachers. You are correct in saying that government regulations are crazy! WHat can we do about this? DOn't say support a union, because there's been a union for years, and the school system has gotten progressivly worse. It isn't the answer. If you have any serious ideas, I'd like to hear them, as I'm irate at the condition of our schools. I support our few good teachers, and would like to see more of them. I'd also like to see them rewarded.

One more question for you on the subject..... What, in your opinion, would be the best way to evaluate teacher performance?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Buttonhook! You are an example of getting involved and that is laudable to no end. That's what

more people should do, instead of shuffling their kids into a broke school system every day and

hoping for the best. We took a different approach with our kids and put them in a private school

where we knew the values wouldn't be totally dictated by the federal school system. They turned

out quite well. We were also well involved and engaged in their education because we had a direct

financial involvement and knew the teachers. It was the way we could get involved because we

didn't have the time like you chose to do.

The key word is "choice" in the way you approached your situation and we ours. The several times

we went to the PTO meetings and observed the way things were done in the one year our sons

went to public school, we were left with too many disappointments, which made our choice for us.

The problem with public schools is more complex than just the union's involvement. It also includes

the vast number of people who consider everything an entitlement, nowadays, and expect things

to happen without that involvement. They expect the state to provide for them, instead of them

providing for themselves. When you mix those with people like yourself, you find the system over

taxed and breaking up with nowhere to go but destruction. Societal values have added to the problem

and the union has, in my opinion, done nothing but push toward dumbing down of the teacher and

student. That's not a solution and you know it. It is a system that can not be maintained, but for people

like you and Daniel's wife. I doubt that a soul on this forum is criticizing you or her. I know I'm not.

Drewsett was the first one to mention the use of vouchers, and in Washington, DC, it was considered a

success by the families and students that were allowed to participate in it. the NEA came out strongly

against this, along with the democrats and Obama, so it was cancelled. I wonder why? Because it was

innovation and took money out of the coffers that fed the union, and I won't get into the other reason.

You are doing what you do for the right reason, and that is laudable. I am proud of you. Make no mistake!

You also have a huge noose around your neck until you get the will of the people to see the innovations

that can improve the education system so that people can be taught honestly and provide for our country's

future generations without political influence. The NEA, in it's present form is no different from the AFL-CIO.

Check out who they ally themselves with. You know that answer. That's most of the problem most people

have with unions. Communism. I know you don't align yourself with that.

Edited February 27, 2011 by 6.8 AR
various and sundry punctuation

[gregintenn]

I think that lots of good points are made in this thread. Some of it has been made personal, or at least was taken as being so, myself included. I get angry because I know how hard a good teacher has to work to do their job. A good teacher is rarely supported by their administration or school board because both groups have a political agenda. Parent cooperation and support is minimal.

At least in my wife's school, the population is the lowest performing group in the system with parents who aren't even able to help second graders with their homework. The kids usually have unstable home environments. They get no support, sometimes haven't eaten anything substantive over the weekend, and may have been allowed to stay up all night watching horror movies. You've got kids on meds, mothers with a new "uncle" in the house every few months, mothers going to jail, kids that move every few months, and some parent that don't even care to get them to school. How the hell does a school address all these issues? What's a fair way to rate a teacher that works in a school like that?

I know that these are the fears that teachers have. What they're asked to do and what they do to help their students is often above and beyond what should be expected.

I don't think most good teachers are particularly "good union people". The reality is that they have no other option at this time to offer them any protection within the system. I whole heartedly agree that there are people in education that shouldn't be there. My concern is that the rhetoric is painting the whole profession as a group that is entitled. I just don't think this is the reality.

The other thing I see is that all of us who work for a living are stressed. We're being asked to do more, work more and put up with more crap than is realistic. Between more damn taxes, more regulations, and companies desire for higher profits to satisfy Wall St the average working stiff has just about been squeezed into poverty. Free market capitalism is a great theory as long as the playing field is level for all groups. Based on the tax structure and regulation I'm not sure that's the case, and unions have certainly proven that they're just as susceptible to corruption as big business.

If I've made anybody angry please accept my apology.

Very well stated. I couldn't agree more.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Maybe he's trying to do a long term fix rather than a band-aid. Here's an example.... Madison Teachers Inc. (MTI) will allow only one insurance company, WPS Health Insurance, to provide their coverage. MTI repeatedly refused to allow the Madison School Board to even shop for for IDENTICAL coverage from a different provider, despite demonstrated savings to the school district. The head of MTI has been on the WPS board (not sure if he still is), IMHO a clear conflict of interest.

Only by restricting collective bargaining to wages can the Madison school system take common sense steps to reduce costs.

Actually, when they realized they were losing the discussion, that's when they decided to falsely attempt to compromise.

Then the thugs from other unions came in for "solidarity", and other mischief.