What teachers unions are really all about

[Guest nicemac]

With fair market competitive wages she probably would, or more. But the union forcing salaries for underserving, underachieving employees is not helping your wife's case.

Amen!

[Guest nicemac]

Well said^^^^^^^

+1

[Raoul]

Amen!

Unless they outsource it to India.

[Guest nicemac]

The jobs that typically get outsourced are the ones that have the total compensation package costs driven up by unions to the point of no longer being sustainable.

[Raoul]

The jobs that typically get outsourced are the ones that have the total compensation package costs driven up by unions to the point of no longer being sustainable.

Not really. In my business I have clients that have outsourced their CSR ordering system and help desk. Those jobs were not union to begin with. Now I get calls from people who have totally no clue what they asking about and often speak english so poorly I have to ask them to spell words or hope they can escalate it up to someone who only speaks really crappy english.

Capital follows cheap labor. If you don't want to support American workers it's certainly your right. Sure will be interesting when we finally go to war with China and we still have to buy steel from them.

[Guest nicemac]

RE:" If you don't want to support American workers it's certainly your right."

Sorry, I missed the part where I suggested that I don't support American workers.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Raoul, if our country got away from taxing achievement and restricting collective bargaining units, those two things would go a long way in correcting what you just mentioned. Taxing achievements(capital) is punishment for a good behaviour and collective bargaining allows good and bad quality to co-mingle, especially when government allows for that bargaining in the government workplace.

And what do we have going on around us, at this moment, by effectively "government unions"?

I think those two things sent the bulk of the companies that wanted to profit out of the country, don't you?

Just some of that Fair Tax stuff I really agree with.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It's our Tax scheme that doesn't support our employees in America.

[Guest nicemac]

It's our Tax scheme that doesn't support our employees in America.

Amen (again).

[Raoul]

It's our Tax scheme that doesn't support our employees in America.

Yes. This is the major problem as I see it. As a self employed idiot, the amount of my income I am forced to contribute to federal coffers is pushing 30%. Add to that my cost of doing business such as licenses etc, and I only actually net about 60-62% of my gross income. So my contribution to the system is 40% of my income.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Believe me, I feel your pain. I have been self employed several times in the past. Probably will again

some day. I especially hated those IRS pat downs.

[Jonnin]

They get a pension because they make jack ****. My wife teachs elementary school in Williamson county. She has a masters degree from Vandy and I make just as much with no college.

You can say that is her problem for becoming a teacher but look at what you are saying.

Who do you want teaching your kids? Someone with a community college degree or someone with the best education available in the state? My wife loves teaching and she is arguably one of the best at her school which is arguably the best in the County/State. I think she deserves to be paid way more than she gets.

How many of you would like to spend every workday with 20+ of your kids?

The best education in the state isnt an elementary education degree, no matter what school it was from. A large part of our education problem is that the teachers are all cut from the same mold, with an E.Edu degree. This system encourages teachers to be pulled from a pool of college students with some of the least amount of math and science possible, and they are trained to "teach" by presenting children with a list of crap to memorize (this is not learning to think, this learning to be a parrot). Nothing against your wife, and I agree she should be paid more, but the entire education system is broken in many ways, one of them the requirement that teachers are all the same due to the required degree/training system...

I am 90% anti union. Unions should be allowed to exist, to do 2 things: protect the workers from unfair/intolerable conditions, and to perform collective bargains. However, the bargains may not overstep the rights of the employeer: if the union employees all walk off the job, the employeer retains the right to hire someone else without union thugs resorting to violence, etc. Rights are a 2 way street, and if a person refuses to work, they should be replaced by someone who will. If no one will work for the offered wage, the company must offer more or move to china or whatever. And, ex-employees that are on the company's property are tresspassing and should be removed by the police: employees have rights, they have the right to work in exchange for pay, and the right to ask for more pay, and the right to take a better offer from someone else, etc. They do not have the right to quit working, remain on the company property, and continue to draw a salary/wage while doing so, or to just re-hire themself at a later date once the company has been terrorized into paying them more. Once you walk off the job, you just quit, and standard rules apply, and as you are no longer an employee, you no longer have any "employee rights" at all. Just my 2 cents.

[Raoul]

Believe me, I feel your pain. I have been self employed several times in the past. Probably will again

some day. I especially hated those IRS pat downs.

Yeah, one finger you can live with, but all five is a pain.

[G27]

Unions and minimum wage have caused jobs to leave the US.

As soon as we realize this and allow the system to 'reset', wages will stabilize and it will cost MORE to outsource jobs.

The fact remains that in a global economy, wages will generally equalize and countries that encourage creativity will flourish.

These socialist ideas (unions and min wage) have hurt this country more than most realize...

[Raoul]

The fact remains that in a global economy, wages will generally equalize and countries that encourage creativity will flourish.

So how little are you willing to work for? If you're competing with a laborer in a country where $2.00 a day is typical...I'm just saying. The only reset I see going on is a downward trend. But I notice that prices and cost of living in general are not declining. I live pretty modestly, no giant house or new cars, but if the trend continues to it's logical global conclusion we're all gonna meet at the bottom. And like it or not that's good old fashioned socialism disguised as capitalism.

[G27]

So how little are you willing to work for? If you're competing with a laborer in a country where $2.00 a day is typical...I'm just saying. The only reset I see going on is a downward trend. But I notice that prices and cost of living in general are not declining. I live pretty modestly, no giant house or new cars, but if the trend continues to it's logical global conclusion we're all gonna meet at the bottom. And like it or not that's good old fashioned socialism disguised as capitalism.

The trend WILL continue - via unions and min wage we've (collectively) artificially inflated our standard of living for years. People make a minimum of $7+/hour for doing the most basic, unskilled labor in this country, and we all pay for it. Like it or not, it's going to equalize somewhat - all we can do to try to mitigate it is stress quality education and innovation - the things that made this country great but are slipping in recent decades.

I'm blessed to work in a market that is already global and has been for some time - my competitors are anyone who can do what I do world-wide. I say 'blessed' because I consider this a true blessing - the market is already equalized for me. That makes the career even tougher, but it's also more lucrative if you're successful.

There's no way to avoid the fact that unions and min wage are going to be forced out in this country. Whether those changes help us avoid a more sever economic slide or those changes occur as a result of said slide is what's up for debate. Short of our becoming totally isolated as a country, outside of exports (won't / can't happen) there is absolutely zero chance to avoid the inevitable - unions and minimum wage have to end.

And no, just because the results are the same doesn't mean it's socialism.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Along with wages equalizing, prices follow. A true marketplace without government intervention will adjust

itself. The FED has made the bumps in our economy magnify, instead of soften. Inflation, which only destroys

value, is created all the time by direct action from the FED.

When a price is set on a commodity, it has to be affordable to enough people to be marketable. That usually

ends up the case unless there are external forces like Farm Price Supports, tariffs and other governmental

intrusions. There has to be demand, also. Politicians and academic types are the ones who make this complex,

but the marketplace is exceedingly simple until government intervention favors one group over another.

I think, in a nutshell, that is Ron Paul's gripe with the FED, and I agree with him.

[Daniel]

........but the marketplace is exceedingly simple until government intervention favors one group over another.

.......

Kinda like oil.

[Guest nicemac]

Nobody would be using ethanol for fuel if the gubament (I) wasn't subsidizing it. The unintended consequence is that food prices are driven up. That forces the bleeding hearts to complain that the poor can't eat on their salary and need a living wage. So the politicians force a minimum wage down our throat. That drives up the cost of doing business. So we need a higher salary to make up for higher prices. There is no end to it.

There will have to be a correction. We have an artificial economy manipulated by government intervention. If left alone to even itself out, yes, some people are going to make less. Most, actually.

The current path is not sustainable, whether it be unions driving up the cost of education or government subsidy driving up the cost of corn. It has to stop if we are to remain financially solvent.

[1gewehr]

The basic problem with Marxist economic theory is that it has no concept of 'relative value'. And ALL 'collective bargaining' is based on Marxist theory.

Collective bargaining says that any worker with 'x' years experience and 'y' level of training is as good as any other worker with the same levels. Anyone with a brain knows that it is total hogwash. Take a worker who has a bad attitude, takes every possible sick day, does just the barest minimum needed to get by and is a trouble-maker. Do you mean to tell me that this worker should make the same wages as the worker who is always helpful, willing to do anything asked to the best of his ability, and is always cheerful and a joy to work with? Get real.

I've been in the position where a co-worker got exactly the same raise as I did, but had less than half the productivity. Unions are about creating a privileged class; union bosses. The union bosses are the only ones who benefit from a union. Show me where the unions helped airline pilots, mechanics, and flight crew at Eastern Airlines. Oh, wait, the airline went bankrupt because of the union. Over 18,000 people lost jobs. And the unions very nearly did just as good a job at Delta!! They would have done just as good a job at GM and Chrysler except that we, the taxpayers, got the shaft instead.

[Guest nicemac]

The basic problem with Marxist economic theory is that it has no concept of 'relative value'. And ALL 'collective bargaining' is based on Marxist theory.

Collective bargaining says that any worker with 'x' years experience and 'y' level of training is as good as any other worker with the same levels. Anyone with a brain knows that it is total hogwash. Take a worker who has a bad attitude, takes every possible sick day, does just the barest minimum needed to get by and is a trouble-maker. Do you mean to tell me that this worker should make the same wages as the worker who is always helpful, willing to do anything asked to the best of his ability, and is always cheerful and a joy to work with? Get real.

I've been in the position where a co-worker got exactly the same raise as I did, but had less than half the productivity. Unions are about creating a privileged class; union bosses. The union bosses are the only ones who benefit from a union. Show me where the unions helped airline pilots, mechanics, and flight crew at Eastern Airlines. Oh, wait, the airline went bankrupt because of the union. Over 18,000 people lost jobs. And the unions very nearly did just as good a job at Delta!! They would have done just as good a job at GM and Chrysler except that we, the taxpayers, got the shaft instead.

Unions have made Southwest Airlines the busiest airline in America!

[Guest nicemac]

Just how bad are teacher salaries?

PayScale - All K-12 Teachers Salary, Average Salaries by Job

Compare to say, an Electrician:

Electrician Journeyman Salary - Average Electrician Journeyman Salaries - PayScale

A Plumber:

Plumber Salary - Average Plumber Salaries - PayScale

A Carpenter:

Carpenter Salary - Average Carpenter Salaries - PayScale

An Auto Technician:

Automotive Service Technician / Mechanic Salary - Average Automotive Service Technician / Mechanic Salaries - PayScale

An Electrical Engineer:

PayScale - Electrical Engineering Salaries, Government Engineering Salaries

A Writer:

Technical Writer Salary - Average Technical Writer Salaries - PayScale

Your insurance guy:

Insurance Salaries - Insurance Salary Survey - PayScale

All in all, teacher salaries seem in line to me. They do have more time off work than any other job I know of. Maybe not three months these days, but still more than any other profession.

Of course, these are national averages and your situation will be different, but when you look at at averages…

Edited February 25, 2011 by nicemac

[G27]

Public Teacher Salaries: U.S. State Rankings (includes COL adjustments): Public Teacher Salaries: U.S. State Rankings - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

[mav]

Here is the actual link to the salaries of those in the Wisonsin school system.

Statistical Information Center - School Staff and Salary Data.

Those administrators have absolutely nothing to b**ch about.

[Guest nicemac]

Here is the actual link to the salaries of those in the Wisonsin school system.

Statistical Information Center - School Staff and Salary Data.

Those administrators have absolutely nothing to b**ch about.

Summary for teachers 2010

Average low salary, across districts: $30,871

Average high salary, across districts: $63,268

Average salary across all districts: $49,093

The administrators average - $77,857.02

Edited February 25, 2011 by nicemac