What teachers unions are really all about

[DRM]

She has a masters degree from Vandy and I make just as much with no college.

This shows one of two things:

Either you have excelled in your field (good for you!) or she has wasted time and money on a Master's degree for which the open market will not compensate her to a level you/she finds acceptable.

If degrees meant we "deserved" more money, then the smart man would start working immediately after college and keep getting degree after degree at night just to up his pay scale. In the real world - that doesn't work. But for some reason - in the beurocratic system of our schools, that is exactly how pay scale is determined:

Not what you know, or how good you are at educating children - but how long you've been doing whatever job (good, bad, or mediocre) and how many degrees you can pile up.

[Guest nicemac]

Unions would never exist in a communal, or communist society for two main reason:

1. There would be no need for an intermediary between the people and the government because a communist government would have already distributed wealth and workload equally among the people.

2. Unions are by their very nature functions of a class system. They exist solely for the purpose of promoting and benefiting *their* class (union members) to the highest status they can possibly negotiate, without regard for anyone else. They are by definition class advocates.

I see how someone could want to vilify unions - especially in their current form - however equating them to communism is barking up the wrong tree.

I was referring to the union itself–it is the communal society.

[Guest nicemac]

This shows one of two things:

Either you have excelled in your field (good for you!) or she has wasted time and money on a Master's degree for which the open market will not compensate her to a level you/she finds acceptable.

If degrees meant we "deserved" more money, then the smart man would start working immediately after college and keep getting degree after degree at night just to up his pay scale. In the real world - that doesn't work. But for some reason - in the beurocratic system of our schools, that is exactly how pay scale is determined:

Not what you know, or how good you are at educating children - but how long you've been doing whatever job (good, bad, or mediocre) and how many degrees you can pile up.

Perfectly stated!

[DRM]

I was referring to the union itself–it is the communal society.

Good workers, bad workers, and all the workers in between are treated as equals, similar to how a communist society would be... I don't think that is the right word, but I agree with the concept you are describing.

[mav]

They get a pension because they make jack ****. My wife teachs elementary school in Williamson county. She has a masters degree from Vandy and I make just as much with no college.

You can say that is her problem for becoming a teacher but look at what you are saying.

Who do you want teaching your kids? Someone with a community college degree or someone with the best education available in the state? My wife loves teaching and she is arguably one of the best at her school which is arguably the best in the County/State. I think she deserves to be paid way more than she gets.

How many of you would like to spend every workday with 20+ of your kids?

Just my two cents. I don't think that where a person went to school or their level of advanced education is necessarily indicative of how they will perform on the job. There are instances in which those lowly community college graduates actually perform better than their ivy league counterparts. Another example can be seen by looking at those who do not have any college and have home schooled their kids. Some of those kid's test scores have exceeded those who have received an education in the public system.

Now, I am sure your wife is an excellent teacher and should be compensated for her ability. That is one of the reasons I do not like unions. I want competition to flourish where those who perform above and beyond are compensated for their achievements, and those who do not perform are given the boot or they receive a very small salary. I want more than just time on the job to dictate what a person's salary should be.

[Daniel]

You guys seem to think I am advocating for unions.. I do not care about the union. I also suggested to her that if it was a competitive wage based on how well her students performed she would make more. I just take issue when someone suggests that they do not deserve a pension.

One thing I do think they (the union) have right is that they supply professional insurance against lawsuits.

[Guest nicemac]

You guys seem to think I am advocating for unions.. I do not care about the union. I also suggested to her that if it was a competitive wage based on how well her students performed she would make more. I just take issue when someone suggests that they do not deserve a pension.

One thing I do think they (the union) have right is that they supply professional insurance against lawsuits.

There are companies that offer that type of insurance for as little as $100 a year–far less than union dues.

[gregintenn]

You guys seem to think I am advocating for unions.. I do not care about the union. I also suggested to her that if it was a competitive wage based on how well her students performed she would make more. I just take issue when someone suggests that they do not deserve a pension.

One thing I do think they (the union) have right is that they supply professional insurance against lawsuits.

Since she was promised a pension when she hired on, I think she deserves a pension once she's upheld her end of the deal. I don't think it would be a bad idea to rethink the old pension plan when dealing with new hires, however. If it weren't for the TEA and NEA, and if your wife is an excellent teacher, she'd be making more money. Actually, if she quit paying union dues tomorrow, she'd have more money.

[Will Carry]

Are any of you guys married to a school teacher? My wife taught school for 30 years. She worked 10 hour days and longer. When she retired she was making $55,000 a year. She didn't do it for the money, she did it because she loved teaching. We can hardly go to the mall without some person coming up had saying "Hi Mrs. Carry!" She knows most of them by name. I am proud of her. I would not make it through one day teaching 7th grade science.

As for unions. I have never been in a union. They are not big in the south, but I thank the unions for things like: overtime pay, payed vacation, weekends off, the 40 hour work week, child labor laws, health insurance, work place safety and a few more. Are unions more corrupt the CEOs? I don't know. I'm just a simple industrial mechanic who has been lucky enough to make a living all these years by the sweat of my brow, as a blue collar worker. They were so worried about unions moving in to the south that they took good care of us non-union workers and for that I am grateful. I don't know if unions are good or bad. I know right wing commentators say they are bad and left wing radicals say they are good. I don't believe anything those people say.

[Guest nicemac]

What do you do about pensions? Do you bankrupt the county/state/federal government to pay full pensions? Or do you renegotiate (yeah it sucks if you were counting on it) to save the county/state/ federal government from insolvency?

[Raoul]

They get a pension because they make jack ****. My wife teachs elementary school in Williamson county. She has a masters degree from Vandy and I make just as much with no college.

You can say that is her problem for becoming a teacher but look at what you are saying.

Who do you want teaching your kids? Someone with a community college degree or someone with the best education available in the state? My wife loves teaching and she is arguably one of the best at her school which is arguably the best in the County/State. I think she deserves to be paid way more than she gets.

How many of you would like to spend every workday with 20+ of your kids?

This.

My wife probably works as many or more hours than anyone here. She ain't gettin rich. Teachers unions were started because the profession is regulated by local elected boards. Without some kind of protection every time there's a new election somebody gets replaced by somebody elses daughter.

Are there bad teachers out there? Of course. But there's bad mechanics, doctors, lawyers, whatever.

And don't forget. Teachers are told what to teach and pretty much how to teach it. It's called a curriculum. The curriculum is usually picked by the administrators and school board. Their method of choosing publishers appears to be based on whoever buys the most drinks or pehaps offers the best kickback.

Can somebody tell me why all of a sudden we seem to hate our public employees? Don't forget, in most cases they forego higher salaries in exchange for health and retirement benefits.

[gregintenn]

What do you do about pensions? Do you bankrupt the county/state/federal government to pay full pensions? Or do you renegotiate (yeah it sucks if you were counting on it) to save the county/state/ federal government from insolvency?

If a deal's been made, it should be executed. The place to deal with issues such as this is not to go and change all the standing contracts, but to change the contracts with new hires. Pensions aren't the only issue causing financial hardships in the government. Pensions are supposed to be funded seperately from the general fun in the state of Tennessee anyway.

[Guest nicemac]

Are any of you guys married to a school teacher? My wife taught school for 30 years. She worked 10 hour days and longer. When she retired she was making $55,000 a year. She didn't do it for the money, she did it because she loved teaching.

$55,000 (plus benefits) for nine months work is not bad money. I know a lot of people that would love to only work 10 hour days.

[Raoul]

And tell me, has anyone heard any of our glorious elected leaders talk about cutting their own salaries, pensions, office staff or anything else that they're stealing from us?

[DRM]

I just take issue when someone suggests that they do not deserve a pension.

She doesn't deserve a pension. *I* don't deserve a pension.

She and I both deserve whatever we can negotiate on the open market.

A union games the system, and holds employer (in this case - we the people) hostage in the bargaining process. She has not negotiated a pension on the open market, therefore she does not deserve a pension.

[DRM]

Can somebody tell me why all of a sudden we seem to hate our public employees?

Please don't use this straw man... please.

[Raoul]

$55,000 (plus benefits) for nine months work is not bad money. I know a lot of people that would love to only work 10 hour days.

Nine month,, I wish. For my wife it works out to be about 6 weeks off. Not including the usual in service training during the summer. 9 months is so 1955.

So let's see. 7:30-4:30 is a 9 hour day. Then there's at least 4 days a week she spends a minimum of 1 hour and usually 2 grading papers. And she works several hours over the weekend

Edited February 24, 2011 by Raoul

[Raoul]

Please don't use this straw man... please.

You're right that's probably not fair. I'm just sick and tired of everyone picking on the teachers. They work as many hours as anyone and more than most. It pisses me off when you start messing with my wife.

[Guest nicemac]

Nine month,, I wish. For my wife it works out to be about 6 weeks off. Not including the usual in service training during the summer. 9 months is so 1955.

Granted that is different these days.

However, most non-teacher jobs don't get Fall Break (a week), Winter break (two weeks), Spring Break (a week) and Columbus Day, Veterans Day, MLK Day, President's Day, etc… holidays off either.

[Guest nicemac]

You're right that's probably not fair. I'm just sick and tired of everyone picking on the teachers. They work as many hours as anyone and more than most. It pisses me off when you start messing with my wife.

I don't think anybody is picking on the teachers - it is the unions that are the problem. How much does your wife pay in dues that could go to other things? Wouldn't that change her effective salary immediately?

[DRM]

You're right that's probably not fair. I'm just sick and tired of everyone picking on the teachers. They work as many hours as anyone and more than most. It pisses me off when you start messing with my wife.

But they/we aren't picking on teachers.

When they agreed to a public job - a job that is paid by our/my tax dollars - teachers agreed that the average citizen now has a vested interest in both the outcomes (education of our children) and costs associated with those jobs. Sorry man, it's part of what she signed up for.

[Raoul]

Granted that is different these days.

However, most non-teacher jobs don't get Fall Break (a week), Winter break (two weeks), Spring Break (a week) and Columbus Day, Veterans Day, MLK Day, President's Day, etc… holidays off either.

You assume they don't scavenge those days to make up for bad weather.

I know that most of you guys mean no harm, but as a man married to a teacher I can honestly she works as hard as anyone I know and puts up with more crap than I could ever tolerate.

It's no pie job. But then my wife cares and is one hell of a good teacher. Like most things the innocent get lumped in with the guilty.

[Guest nicemac]

You assume they don't scavenge those days to make up for bad weather.

I know that most of you guys mean no harm, but as a man married to a teacher I can honestly she works as hard as anyone I know and puts up with more crap than I could ever tolerate.

It's no pie job. But then my wife cares and is one hell of a good teacher. Like most things the innocent get lumped in with the guilty.

Agreed. That is how the unions hurt good teachers, like your wife.

[gregintenn]

She doesn't deserve a pension. *I* don't deserve a pension.

She and I both deserve whatever we can negotiate on the open market.

A union games the system, and holds employer (in this case - we the people) hostage in the bargaining process. She has not negotiated a pension on the open market, therefore she does not deserve a pension.

If someone promised you a pension after working for them for 30 years, and you work for them for 30 years, yes! You do deserve a pension. You don't deserve to work for 30 years for less pay than a comparable private sector job with the promise of a pension, and when you get there someone decides to change the rules.

[Bubba0031]

In general, union or not, private industry employees make more money than public employees however the public employees have better benefits and to some extent more job security. For many those benefits include a pension. I am a public employee, non union and not a teacher, with a professional license. My wife working for a private company makes 30% more than I do with less credentials. She frequently tells me I need to go where I can make more money but never considers how much I would have to make to overcome the lose of benefits.

I like Raoul don't understand why so much hate is directed toward Public Employees and why when there is a budget to be balanced it's done on at the expense of those employees.