Open Carry Harrassment

[lunarpowered]

My friend just joined this forum to join in a dicsussion. His screen name is FallenOne30.

Is it harassment or discrimination to be stopped by law enforcement for open carrying?

I believe an officer has a right to ask for a handgun carry permit; however, if they ask EVERY individual who is open carrying a firearm, is that not harassment and discrimination?

My argument here is that cops are not able to pull over every individual who drives a car simply for the fact that he or she is driving a car. Why are cops allowed to pull aside every individual who open carries simply for the fact that he or she is open carrying?

[Jonnin]

They actually can set up shop to check everyone for a drivers liscense. Its called a roadblock. The problems / lawsuits are for "random" pullovers of folks without cause just to check their ID or hassle them, such as pulling over all teenagers or pulling over all white men with beards or pulling over every 70's caddy with shiny hubcaps, etc. No one has yet shown to my knowledge that checking *everyone* is a problem, its profiling that creates tension.

Same for HCP. If they only stop skinheads with glocks, its a problem. If they stop everyone they see, its a "roadblock" of sorts, I would imagine.

[Guest Grot]

They actually can set up shop to check everyone for a drivers liscense. Its called a roadblock. The problems / lawsuits are for "random" pullovers of folks without cause just to check their ID or hassle them, such as pulling over all teenagers or pulling over all white men with beards or pulling over every 70's caddy with shiny hubcaps, etc. No one has yet shown to my knowledge that checking *everyone* is a problem, its profiling that creates tension.

Same for HCP. If they only stop skinheads with glocks, its a problem. If they stop everyone they see, its a "roadblock" of sorts, I would imagine.

+1

[Guest fallenone30]

My opinion on this is that openly carry a firearm in public will mean that you will be stopped and questions more often then not because you are openly carrying. And if you choose to openly carry the firearm then you has to asume that you will be questions by law enforcement because you have a firearm. Law enforcement want to ensure public safety and someone openlly carrying would raise a red flag.

[lunarpowered]

So, you're saying that it wouldn't be considered discrimination against individuals with guns any more than it would be considered discrimination against people with cars because everyone who is being stopped has one?

[Seaslug]

My argument here is that cops are not able to pull over every individual who drives a car simply for the fact that he or she is driving a car. Why are cops allowed to pull aside every individual who open carries simply for the fact that he or she is open carrying?

Because driving a car isn't illegal in and of itself in TN, whereas carrying a firearm in public is. The HCP is merely a defense to that law. Therefore, anyone openly carrying a firearm is presumed to be breaking the law, and as such, they must be able to produce a permit on demand to prove that they are not. Of course, if one is pulled over while driving, he or she must also produce a valid driver's license on demand, but there is no law that expressly says the very act of driving the car is illegal by default.

[Punisher84]

So, you're saying that it wouldn't be considered discrimination against individuals with guns any more than it would be considered discrimination against people with cars because everyone who is being stopped has one?

It's not against the law to drive a car in this state, under most circumstances. It is to carry a gun. That's the main difference.

[Seaslug]

It's not against the law to drive a car in this state, under most circumstances. It is to carry a gun. That's the main difference.

*AHEM* See post #6, pokey...

[lunarpowered]

Why is driving a car any more legal or illegal than carrying a gun? You have to have a license for both.

[Guest cardsfan]

If we did not have all these hoplophobic pantywaist it would not be a problem.

If the health care law is found constitutional by the US Supreme Court then they should pass a law to force everyone who can legally own a gun to have a gun.

It would eliminate the confusion.

[Seaslug]

Why is driving a car any more legal or illegal than carrying a gun? You have to have a license for both.

Because there is a law on the books which says (and I'm paraphrasing, of course) it is illegal to carry a firearm in public in TN. The HCP is merely a defense to that law. There is no such law forbidding the driving of a car, even though you do have to have a license to do so for the most part. It's a semantic distinction, but an important one.

[lunarpowered]

EDIT: I misread the post above.

Edited February 23, 2011 by lunarpowered
Error

[Punisher84]

*AHEM* See post #6, pokey...

I was on my phone sucka! You beat me to it. Lol great minds think alike right?

[Seaslug]

I was unaware of that law. Would you happen to have a link?

39-17-1307. Unlawful carrying or possession of a weapon. —

(a) (1) A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade length exceeding four inches (4²), or a club.

(2) (A) The first violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class C misdemeanor, and, in addition to possible imprisonment as provided by law, may be punished by a fine not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500).

( A second or subsequent violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class B misdemeanor.

© A violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class A misdemeanor if the person's carrying of a handgun occurred at a place open to the public where one (1) or more persons were present.

[Punisher84]

I was unaware of that law. Would you happen to have a link?

Lol bro you weren't aware it was illegal to carry a gun in the state of TN?

[gregintenn]

I don't expect a police officer would bother you for carrying a gun, unless they were answering a complaint about a man with a gun. That would be much like someone calling in your car license number and saying you ran them off the road. In either case, I would expect the police to respond.

[lunarpowered]

Lol bro you weren't aware it was illegal to carry a gun in the state of TN?

No, I misread and thought he was talking about for vehicles.

[Guest clownsdd]

It's not against the law to drive a car in this state, under most circumstances. It is to carry a gun. That's the main difference.

But it is against the law to drive without a license that's why they have the checkpoints. No difference really.

[vontar]

Seaslug

has hit the nail on the head with a 10 pound hammer.

If you OC, you are asking to be checked.

Be glad TN allows OC with a permit. The way our law is written we can at least OC or CC. There are some states that are so stick that if you even print your gun though your clothing you are in violation of the law. It was explained to me once, TN's law was written this way so that if someone was trying to CC and accidentally showed their gun or failed to CC they would not accidentally break the law.

Until we have constitutional carry, expect to show your papers, er, your HCP if you OC. If you OC, and are checked that is time you will not get back.

Just another reason I CC.

[gregintenn]

There are certain things you do that draw attention to yourself. You may not like it, but that's the facts of life. When I was a teenager, I drove really nice, fast cars. Either a Barracuda, a 67 Chevy II, or an L-82 Corvette. I had a police escort pretty much everywhere I went. I didn't like it, but short of driving a dirty POS, I didn't see much way to change it. Same thing with open carry. You can do it, but it's foolish to not expect consequences.

[Tncobra]

A Tennessee Trooper can stop you for the sole reason to check that you have a drivers license.

I believe some people open carry just for the attention. I especially get a kick out of the ones that have a carry permit badge hanging on their belt.

I'm reminded of the military telling me not to "flash my cash" because someone watching may want it more than me.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Tncobra

[kb4ns]

A Tennessee Trooper can stop you for the sole reason to check that you have a drivers license.

I'd be interested in seeing how this would hold up if under scrutiny. I know the TCA exists, but there are other issues here besides checking the license. Like seizing a person's freedom of movement with no reasonable suspicion or probable cause. It isn't going to go real well for THP. The fourth amendment will trump TCA every time. I was talking to a THP trooper about this a while back and he said that most troopers have pretty much stopped doing it because they realize this.

[gregintenn]

I'd be interested in seeing how this would hold up if under scrutiny. I know the TCA exists, but there are other issues here besides checking the license. Like seizing a person's freedom of movement with no reasonable suspicion or probable cause. It isn't going to go real well for THP. The fourth amendment will trump TCA every time. I was talking to a THP trooper about this a while back and he said that most troopers have pretty much stopped doing it because they realize this.

Why is this different than a game warden checking fishing license?

[kb4ns]

Why is this different than a game warden checking fishing license?

That's another one I'd be interested in watching. Don't get me wrong - I hate poachers and am thankful for any way they get caught, but I don't know that it's constitutional.

[Punisher84]

But it is against the law to drive without a license that's why they have the checkpoints. No difference really.

I don't want to derail the thread into it's own little tangent debating this, but there is a difference. There is not a law that says "it is illegal to drive a car unless you prove otherwise". There is a law that says "it is illegal to carry a gun unless you prove otherwise". It may seem like semantics, but there is a difference in the actions and the laws.