How Not To Do A Straw Purchase

[The Rabbi]

It's a good thing criminals are so dumb. It makes it easier for the rest of us.

So I get a call Mon:

"Yo, you get any AKs in stock?"

No, but I do have a Saiga, it's made on the same action yadda yadda. Tag on it is blah blah.

"You cut me a deal, man?"

Stand in front of me and put money down and we'll talk (my standard answer to this question from a disembodied voice or pixels on a screen).

"Okay, 'cause I'm buying this for my girl. She shoots rifle competitions."

Hmm, hokay, whatever.

Yesterday (Tues) he shows up with his two friends. Hat slung low over his eyes, literally talking out the side of his mouth.

"I talked to you yesterday about the K. I got X dollars(flashes large wad of bills), how about it?"

Sure, I'll do it for that.

"Okay, I'll get my girl to come in and fill out the papers."

Uh, no. You're buying the gun. You fill out the papers.

No, man. It's for her. She shoots competition. So she'll come in and fill out the papers, OK?

No, not ok. You want the gun, you fill out the paperwork.

"I make all the decisions, you know? 'Cause i'm the man around the house."

OK, but you'll have to fill out the papers if you want to buy the gun.

He leaves with his pals. I get a call 5 minutes later.

"Yo, can she come in and buy it now?"

Uh, no I dont think so. I think we're done.

Click.

So his girlfriend shoots rifle competitions and she's gonna do it with a Saiga 7.62x39 rifle? And you guys thought you needed a high dollar bolt in .308 with a scope for that!

Personally I think the only competition she was in was prone.

On her back.

[KahrMan]

They were probably undercover BATFE agents...

[KahrMan]

Rabbi, you should be ashamed of yourself. You know we need more women in the shooting sports...

[Mike.357]

probably a stupid question but if she came in, kept her mouth shut about the boyfriend, asked to see the Saiga, had the same amount of cash, would you have sold it to her?

Provided of course she passed the 4473.

[The Rabbi]

probably a stupid question but if she came in, kept her mouth shut about the boyfriend, asked to see the Saiga, had the same amount of cash, would you have sold it to her?

Provided of course she passed the 4473.

Not a stupid question at all.

Depends on whether I had enough info to connect the two. If I thought she were actually buying it for him, then no. If she were good enough to make me think there was no connection then yes. I would have no reason not to.

That's why I premised this by saying how stupid criminals are.

The "right way" to do that would be for him to come in, look around, ask a couple of questions and leave. Then two days later send in one of his friends with the money in hand, ask the same or similar questions, and buy the gun.

It isn't hard to defeat the straw purchase requirement, which is why people who are incapable of doing so are idiots.

[Guest canynracer]

LMFAO!!!

"yo, is data a fully?"

you are a funny man Rabbi, a very funny man...

[Cannon Fodder]

Dumb question but how do you do a gift, provided that both persons would pass the background check?

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Dumber question, what is a straw purchase? Having someone else buy a gun for you knowing you wouldn't qualify?

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Dumb question but how do you do a gift, provided that both persons would pass the background check?

Not a dumb question at all.

It all has to do with who is the ACTUAL buyer of the firearm, as question 1 on the 4473 asks "Are you the actual buyer of the firearm?". If you're the one putting down the money, you fill out the paperwork. You can't come in, pull the money out of your pocket, and have someone else fill out the paperwork. If they're going to fill out the paperwork, then they have to pay for it.

Now, if it's a married couple, I would be cool with letting the husband fill out the paperwork, while the wife pulls the checkbook out of her purse, or vice versa, he pulls out the credit card while she does the paperwork. Having been married twice, I understand that oftentimes, one partner has control of the money. Heck, my dad almost never has money on him, although he earns it all. My mom knows what bills need to be paid, so she handles that part of the finances. If my dad wants money, she tells him what's available, and he takes what he needs. If it were my parents in the gunshop, I wouldn't expect my dad to pull out the checkbook (heck, I doubt my dad could find the checkbook).

Oftentimes, it boils down to a judgement call for the FFL. You have to trust your gut that the 'wife' is paying for it because she has the finances, while the gun is actually for the 'husband.' But, when it's as blatant as what Rabbi experienced, there's no need for a judgement call. It was obvious what was happening. No one uses an AK for competitive shooting, and if he were truly getting it for her as a gift, why not fill out the paperwork, unless he can't pass the background check? That way, he could have surprised her with her new rifle on Valentine's Day.

(Speaking of which, if any of ladies want to buy me a rifle, you can be my Valentine. I'll even make dessert for ya.)

[Guest flyfishtn]

Wikipedia

A straw purchase is any purchase where the buyer is not eligible to own the purchased item according to the law and therefore purchases the item through a proxy buyer. Although it usually refers to the purchase of illegal firearms, the term can refer to almost anything bought or sold illegally.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

What would a dealer do in this situation? And I ask because you say an exception could be made for married couples, so I was wondering if "family" in general worked that way too.

My mother-in-law wants to buy me an anniversary gift. I take her to the gun shop and pick one out. It's definitely for me, but she will be presenting the funds. Who fills out the paperwork?

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Dumber question, what is a straw purchase? Having someone else buy a gun for you knowing you wouldn't qualify?

Pretty much exactly. A 'straw purchase' is when one person pays for the gun, but another actually does the paperwork.

I wouldn't doubt it happens more than we realize. It's just the dumb people we see. The smart ones know what gun they want and what the price is beforehand. They then send a cohort into the shop with the money and stay away, or go in with them and keep their mouth shut. A truly smart person would go in with their friend and act like they are trying to help their friend pick out a gun. If it were done right, that would allow them to handle the guns and ask questions about it. But, it would take an especially intelligent person to do that, and let's face it, most criminals aren't that bright.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Thanks fly and ETS. I didn't even think to Google it.

[Guest ETS_Inc]

What would a dealer do in this situation? And I ask because you say an exception could be made for married couples, so I was wondering if "family" in general worked that way too.

My mother-in-law wants to buy me an anniversary gift. I take her to the gun shop and pick one out. It's definitely for me, but she will be presenting the funds. Who fills out the paperwork?

That's a tough call. It would really be up to the dealer to make a gut assessment of the situation. If they felt there was something hokey going on, they should tell you no, and pass up the sale. But, it doesn't take long in the gun business to become a good judge of character.

Personally, I would make the judgement based on the conversation and your demeanor. If during the conversation, your MIL said she was buying you an anniversary gift, and you both acted as if that were truly the case, I'd make her fill out the paperwork, because she's buying it. I would probably ask you if there was anything prohibiting you from owning a gun. If your reply seemed on the level, and there are really ways to know, I'd continue with the sale.

If the woman who purported to be your "MIL" was about the same age as you, or if there was no mention of an anniversary gift, I'd be a lot more hesitant. I would say that if you weren't wearing a wedding band, I'd be a bit skeptical, but neither of my parents wear wedding bands. They pawned them in the '70's to feed us kids, and never bought new ones. (By the time they got to where they could've afforded to, they realized that the rings weren't the important part.)

Like I said, it'd have to be a judgement call by the dealer.

[Guest bulletproof]

Oooops. I bought my daughter a handgun not long ago. She filled out all the paperwork but I actually paid for it with a check. I think the guy that sold it to us knew we were father and daughter though.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

We don't wear rings anymore either, for the very same reason years ago. Food was in short supply and gold on the finger didn't mean that much.

The shop I'd be buying from has come to know my face somewhat because I've talked to 2 specific men at length on several occasions while I've been searching and researching what pocket size gun to purchase. And the gunsmith has spoken to me several times since I took in a Beretta for a cleaning/checkup, and I use their range.

I would have no problem with her filling out the paperwork for herself if thats the requirement, I just needed to know what to tell her to expect. Does having a permit mean I'm qualified to own the gun, if they should ask for proof before filling out paperwork? I could show them that.

And I'd fall out and die if they thought we look the same age.

[Cannon Fodder]

That's a tough call. It would really be up to the dealer to make a gut assessment of the situation. If they felt there was something hokey going on, they should tell you no, and pass up the sale. But, it doesn't take long in the gun business to become a good judge of character.

Like I said, it'd have to be a judgement call by the dealer.

Ok, I was wondering that. My aunt bought my uncle a Kimber for christmas one year and the GF was mentioning getting me something, until she saw some the the prices. Now what if you both were paying?

[The Rabbi]

Ok, I was wondering that. My aunt bought my uncle a Kimber for christmas one year and the GF was mentioning getting me something, until she saw some the the prices. Now what if you both were paying?

This really isn't an issue. Anyone can give a gun as a gift to someone else and they are still the "actual buyer."

The issue comes when the recipient is going to pay the buyer back, esp where the recipient is prohibited.

This is why I say it is so easy to defeat the issue and people who can't are clods.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

Hey, rabbi, I'm gonna bring in a wad of cash. Be sure to hold on to 'dat choppa' in 9mm ,40 with an 'esstended clip' ok?

[strickj]

Lincoln;beta get some bling on that gat

[Guest HexHead]

Oooops. I bought my daughter a handgun not long ago. She filled out all the paperwork but I actually paid for it with a check. I think the guy that sold it to us knew we were father and daughter though.

I'm guessing that's not a problem since the pistol was for her use. It's not like if it was for your use.

[Urse]

Now who says you can not shoot competition with the AK? As long as they stand still.........

[Guest canynracer]

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yo yo yo.....

it aint fo me homey...

mah gihrl needs a new fully, I just helpin her out...know what Im sayin???

its alllllll goood in da hood "g-money"