45 ACP Crimp

[Guest nicemac]

Actually shot the first .45 ACP that I have reloaded yesterday at Owl Hollow. I had two out of around 50 that did not feed properly.

.451 185 GR Hornady XTP bullets using 5.9 gr of Bullseye.

Al of the cases were processed/ sized, seated and crimped using Hornady dies on a LNL AP press. I have separate seating and crimp dies and had (what I thought was) .0015" - .002" crimp on the cases. The slide closed before the round was fully chambered (powder issue?) and pushed the bullet back into the case (crimp issue), which of course, caused a jam. How can I find out exactly how much crimp is enough, without crimping too much and causing over pressure?

Putting these through a Kimber Pro Carry II that was feeding (most of) my reloads and all of the Monarch 230 gr ball ammo I have ever put through it just fine.

Edited February 21, 2011 by nicemac
typo

[Caster]

Lee's factory crimp die. It's almost impossible to over crimp as the case will buckle first. It's the best money spent, period. It will also iron out any wrinkles that may occur from time to time. It does a proper taper crimp. Seriously, best money you'll spend.

[frankmako]

i use a lee factory crimp die for the 45acp. never had any problems with my reloads when i use the lee factory crimp/traper crimp dies.

[Guest nicemac]

How do you guys adjust the amount of crimp on the Lee?

[LngRngShtr]

nicemac,... the 2-3 thou crimp I use and suggested was for lead bullets,.. sorry I didn't specify I would think the Jacketed would need more to grip the slippery copper just add a half thou to a thou and press the loaded round against the bench bullet first until it won't set back, I don't shoot much jacketed ammo but could see a 3-4 thou crimp will check with some of my reloading buddies and get a general consensus and get back to you..BTW we ran an experiment on crimp back in the 90's velocity does go up but not as much as you think and accuracy falls way off due to distortion of the projectile so unless you are running "redline" loads your accuracy will show the excessive crimp before pressure/velocity does

You will find, if you want to sacrifice a few shell casings, that you have a narrow window of crimp before it starts to "crinkle" casings making them unusable take one and load a dummy,..no primer/powder and crimp with your current setup.. then tighten a thousandth,then another,then another then crinkle sets in..now if you have a puller pull the bullet, you will see a dent where the casing was on plated bullets you can actually cut the plating which is bad as they can possibly separate during firing leading to a bore obstruction

If you have the shorter 1911's their springs tend to be stronger so you may have to come up on powder charge closer to a ball equivalent I had an old colt officers model (3.5" barrel) and it would only run the warmer stuff reliably , mid-range ammo would short cycle or stovepipe..

this is the joys of reloading,so many combinations ..

John

Edited February 21, 2011 by LngRngShtr
crim eperiment info..

[Caster]

How do you guys adjust the amount of crimp on the Lee?

Not meaning to be a smart ars, but I basically let the Force guide me. I go until I completely close the bell on the mouth, then a smidgen more and good to go.

LngRngShtr is right, sacrifice a few dummies to get the feel. It's a breeze really.

[Jonnin]

This topic has been off and on a couple of times this past month, and I am still not sure what I am doing or should be doing.

I have the lee 4-die set (so I have the factory crip die) but have not been using it. Is this "wrong" ? The ammo is working fine so far, very light load (just under 5 grains of #2 on a 230 FMJ). The paperwork said the seating die "crimps it" and the factory die is sort of optional, unless I misunderstood it, so I tried it without first and since it worked, just left well-enough alone. As I am fairly new to it, I have been focused on not blowing myself up more than anything else, trying to learn all the stuff that can go wrong as a priority.

Should I use the crimp die? Or leave it be since its working? Does the seater die crimp it "enough" or did I misunderstand?

Thanks for any clarifications!

[Lumber_Jack]

This topic has been off and on a couple of times this past month, and I am still not sure what I am doing or should be doing.

I have the lee 4-die set (so I have the factory crip die) but have not been using it. Is this "wrong" ? The ammo is working fine so far, very light load (just under 5 grains of #2 on a 230 FMJ). The paperwork said the seating die "crimps it" and the factory die is sort of optional, unless I misunderstood it, so I tried it without first and since it worked, just left well-enough alone. As I am fairly new to it, I have been focused on not blowing myself up more than anything else, trying to learn all the stuff that can go wrong as a priority.

Should I use the crimp die? Or leave it be since its working? Does the seater die crimp it "enough" or did I misunderstand?

Thanks for any clarifications!

My Hornady manual suggests no crimp for jacketed bullets. So I would say your good to go, as-is.

[deerslayer]

nicemac,

Follow the manual. I can't remember exactly what it says, but it's something like turn crimp die until it touches the shell plate. Back off one full turn for light crimp, 1/2 turn for heavy crimp (or something to that effect). Lee FCD is well worth the money, IMHO.

[Guest nicemac]

My Hornady manual suggests no crimp for jacketed bullets. So I would say your good to go, as-is.

I should have been more clear: I have a separate taper crimp die already.

If I don't crimp (or even with a light crimp) I can literally push the bullets back into the case with my hand pressing the bullet end of the cartridge into my bench. No way that is right. I cant do that with the jacketed factory rounds I have. Just the forces of feeding will push the bullets back into the case. The manual says something like; "crimp the proper amount." Not helpful.

I called Hornady. They said to crimp until the case OD is .470", or slightly less. Well crap, the case is only .4685" straight out of their sizing die. I bell the case .010" before I place a bullet in, but if I only crimp to .470", the bullet will literally fall out. Somewhere around .464" the bullet is fairly tight, but if I pull it to examine it, the bullet is deformed by a couple of thousands.

[timcalhoun]

I should have been more clear: I have a separate taper crimp die already.

If I don't crimp (or even with a light crimp) I can literally push the bullets back into the case with my hand pressing the bullet end of the cartridge into my bench. No way that is right. I cant do that with the jacketed factory rounds I have. Just the forces of feeding will push the bullets back into the case. The manual says something like; "crimp the proper amount." Not helpful.

I called Hornady. They said to crimp until the case OD is .470", or slightly less. Well crap, the case is only .4685" straight out of their sizing die. I bell the case .010" before I place a bullet in, but if I only crimp to .470", the bullet will literally fall out. Somewhere around .464" the bullet is fairly tight, but if I pull it to examine it, the bullet is deformed by a couple of thousands.

You have really been given the best advice already. Get a lee factory crimp die and forget about it.

I really don't care for many crimp dies that come in 3 die sets. Often they are better used as paper weights. As you are experiencing, often they seem to give you either not enough or too much crimp.

[Guest nicemac]

You have really been given the best advice already. Get a lee factory crimp die and forget about it.

I really don't care for many crimp dies that come in 3 die sets. Often they are better used as paper weights. As you are experiencing, often they seem to give you either not enough or too much crimp.

I should have been even more clear: I have a separate taper crimp die already–I am not using the seating/crimp die that came in the set. Even if I get the LEE taper crimp die, I still have to adjust it. What I want to know is how much everybody crimps? Just keep telling me to get a Lee does not help.

[Jonnin]

I will check the OD on mine then. It seems tight enough, I am sure if I pushed on the table with all my strength, it would go in deeper but its not easy to do that. Putting the bullet into the case takes a little bit of force with the press and the bullet will sit on top of the case when using the seating die (it does not go in, and I cannot push it in by hand, never tried to push it in against the table though).

[Guest nicemac]

I will check the OD on mine then. It seems tight enough, I am sure if I pushed on the table with all my strength, it would go in deeper but its not easy to do that. Putting the bullet into the case takes a little bit of force with the press and the bullet will sit on top of the case when using the seating die (it does not go in, and I cannot push it in by hand, never tried to push it in against the table though).

It takes very little force to push the bullet back into the case on mine–easy to do by hand.

[Caster]

I should have been even more clear: I have a separate taper crimp die already–I am not using the seating/crimp die that came in the set. Even if I get the LEE taper crimp die, I still have to adjust it. What I want to know is how much everybody crimps? Just keep telling me to get a Lee does not help.

Ahhh, okay. Obviously you flare the mouth a bit to guide the bullet in, so just close that bell completely and double check the diameter there with a mic or calipers. I think it's like .473 or so, I can't remember. Check your loading manual for what the diameter is supposed to be and crimp it closed until you get that measurement. You can increase the amount of crimp [wee bit at a time] until the bullet is tight. You should be just fine.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Caster

[Guest nicemac]

Ahhh, okay. Obviously you flare the mouth a bit to guide the bullet in, so just close that bell completely and double check the diameter there with a mic or calipers. I think it's like .473 or so, I can't remember. Check you loading manual for what the diameter is supposed to be and crimp it closed until you get that measurement.

See post above:

I called Hornady. They said to crimp until the case OD is .470", or slightly less. Well crap, the case is only .4685" straight out of their sizing die. I bell the case .010" before I place a bullet in, but if I only crimp to .470", the bullet will literally fall out. Somewhere around .464" the bullet is fairly tight, but if I pull it to examine it, the bullet is deformed by a couple of thousands.

[timcalhoun]

I should have been even more clear: I have a separate taper crimp die already–I am not using the seating/crimp die that came in the set. Even if I get the LEE taper crimp die, I still have to adjust it. What I want to know is how much everybody crimps? Just keep telling me to get a Lee does not help.

Sorry, I thought you just explained that when you get the crimp to the point where you don't get set back, your bullet starts to deform?

I would measure for you, but I use a EGW undersized die for my sizer die, so the number I would give you I don't think would help much. You can always measure your factory rounds. But often (if you sizer die is right) you need to only straighten the bell, and actually use zero crimp (as others have said). Personally I always crimp all my pistol ammo.

My 45 rounds measure .469 OD under the bullet, and .470 at the case mouth. What do your bullets measure?

[Guest nicemac]

Sorry, I thought you just explained that when you get the crimp to the point where you don't get set back, your bullet starts to deform?

I would measure for you, but I use a EGW undersized die for my sizer die, so the number I would give you I don't think would help much. You can always measure your factory rounds. But often (if you sizer die is right) you need to only straighten the bell, and actually use zero crimp (as others have said). Personally I always crimp all my pistol ammo.

My 45 rounds measure .469 OD under the bullet, and .470 at the case mouth. What do your bullets measure?

I will have to check when I get home to get precise numbers. My cases are only .4685" right out of the re-sizing die. I put a .010" flare on them before seating bullet. (Is that too much?)

[timcalhoun]

I will have to check when I get home to get precise numbers. My cases are only .4685" right out of the re-sizing die. I put a .010" flare on them before seating bullet. (Is that too much?)

The flare doesn't matter really, just make it easy to place the bullet on top and no more. That way you don't over work your brass.

Something is no right here. I'm wondering if you bullets are not .451 or if lead .452.

I just measured 5 different loads of which 2 were factory, and all of them are measuring .470-.471 at the case mouth.

[Guest nicemac]

The flare doesn't matter really, just make it easy to place the bullet on top and no more. That way you don't over work your brass.

Something is no right here. I'm wondering if you bullets are not .451 or if lead .452.

I just measured 5 different loads of which 2 were factory, and all of them are measuring .470-.471 at the case mouth.

The bullets say .451" on the box and measure out right at .450".

[Backon4]

Watching this to see the outcome. I am just about ready to start lading 45. I have done some dry runs with no primers and no powder using a lee pro 1000 and mine seem to be crimping fine.

[Guest nicemac]

Watching this to see the outcome. I am just about ready to start lading 45. I have done some dry runs with no primers and no powder using a lee pro 1000 and mine seem to be crimping fine.

My crimps look good too.

[Guest DaG]

Measure bullet dia. plus the case thickness x2 and subtract one thousandth and you should be good to go. Too much crimp espcially on plated bullets will cause tumbling.

DaG

[Guest nicemac]

Just found this on another forum:

"Just crimp enough to remove the flaring. You should concentrate your effort on making sure the case is gripping the bullet tightly enough. Seat a bullet and then try to push it back into the case, push hard. If you can move it it can setback when chambering and no amount of crimp is going to stop it. The reason this is happening is the expander plug in the flaring die is opening the mouth up too much. Measure the plug and if it's not 3 or 4 thous. smaller than your bullet dia. turn it down in a drill until it is. You should be able to see the outline of the bullet's base swelling the brass. If you do this you will have no setback problems. A finished round should fall into and out of the barrel by gravity alone."

I am flaring the case about .010" before I seat a bullet. I wonder if that is too much and is my issue?

Edited February 22, 2011 by nicemac
typo

[Lumber_Jack]

I am flaring the case about .010" before I seat a bullet. I wonder if that is too much and is my issue?

it very well may be. can you try flaring less and work up until the bullet will just barely sit in the brass freehand.