What would you do in a situation like this?

[Punisher84]

SO let's say you did this, and now you've found yourself with a handgun pointed at an undercover DEA agent. You think he ain't fixin to kill you? You can also bet he isn't by himself. The best case would be that you go to prison for threatening a federal agent with a deadly weapon. You're not going to like this, but it's easy to ba a bad a$$ on the internet. I've always been taught that if it gets to the point you need to pull your weapon out, you'd better be shooting. It isn't a microphone; you don't pull it out and make a speech. It seems very risky to stick your nose in someone else's business. Call the police and be a witness. You have the right to defend yourself. So did the woman being attacked. She decided she didn't need to. This shouldn't be a cause for you to possibly screw up your life.

Greg I get what you are saying and in a way I agree. I'm not an Internet bad ass and I don't want to end up shooting the wrong person, but you are tipping the paranoid end of the spectrum. You know how many times I've gone to a disturbance or fight call with barely any information and had to decide on the spot how to handle it? You use reasonable judgement. I get what you are trying to argue, but your analogies are asinine.

Let me give you an example a trainer gave to me once. Others here know it as well. This is a true story apparently. A guy sees a man with a woman by the throat, holding a bloody knife in an alley. The guy fires, killing the man with the knife. Hero right? Well, turns out the female was a crazy ex and had stabbed the guy seconds before he grabbed her and pulled the knife out of his own body.

The shooter in that case was not charged. He was sued by the deceased's family. Don't remember if they won or not. Point is you do need to know the facts, but to say you should never intervene because it could be some fantastical movie where a Halloween mask wearing DEA agent is tasering a female drug kingpin is just silly.

[Guest clownsdd]

"I've always been taught that if it gets to the point you need to pull your weapon out, you'd better be shooting" I believe you were taught wrong. Gun at ready and prepared and guns ablazing are 2 totally different concepts. I'm like some of the others here, no way could I stand by while that happened without at least walking over and maybe just being there if you know what I mean.

[gregintenn]

You know how many times I've gone to a disturbance or fight call with barely any information and had to decide on the spot how to handle it? You use reasonable judgement.

There;s a h3ll of a difference in dealing with a situation like this if it's your job, and you have the backing of the court system, and just being an innocent bystander with a carry permit. I am not a leo, and just because I have a gun doesn't obligate me to protect the general public. A police officer can get by with things a permit holder will get punished for. That's the way it should be. That's why we have them; that's why you call them.

[gregintenn]

I'd be more likely to intervene if I weren't carrying than if I were. I make a special effort to stay out of trouble while carrying, as if I get in trouble while carrying, it'll not just look bad on me, but put a black eye on all hcp holders. We aren't law enforcement.

[Punisher84]

There;s a h3ll of a difference in dealing with a situation like this if it's your job, and you have the backing of the court system, and just being an innocent bystander with a carry permit. I am not a leo, and just because I have a gun doesn't obligate me to protect the general public. A police officer can get by with things a permit holder will get punished for. That's the way it should be. That's why we have them; that's why you call them.

I'm not a police officer. Just a campus security officer. If I screw up, it's my ass. I don't have any immunity. That was my whole point. Granted it is still a little different because I'm being called to the incident, but the judgement still comes into play.

I didn't get a permit to protect everyone on the street, but I did go in to my career field to protect others. It's just an instinct for me. Maybe someday that will be my downfall, but I won't just walk away and turn my head if I believe someone truly needs my help. If my wife were in need of help I would hope someone would step up. We've become slaves to our own irrational fears. That is what is wrong with our society. "We must all fear evil men. But what we must fear most is the indifference of GOOD men."

[Guest bkelm18]

My decision to help is not based on the fact I have a carry permit. It is based on the fact that I consider myself a good person. I do not consider it my duty to "protect the general public". If I see a woman, a child, etc. who appear to be in the process of being beaten, raped, murdered, etc., I'm not going to ignore it. Plain and simple. I don't see how anyone could call themselves a decent person if they did otherwise.

[NRA]

I don't think any of those who say they would get involved advocate running into a situation blindly with guns ablazin', hottin' and hollerin' and kickin' up dust. But you can certainly go to the aid of the woman and figure out what's going on. And carrying gives you an extra tool to use if necessary in the defense of life - yours, hers, whatever. But to sit there and watch a woman get beat to the ground then tazed and later find out she was killed by her jilted lover and I might have been able to stop it? I'd have a hard time looking at myself in the mirror if that ever happened.

Very well stated, how could anyone just stand by and watch a woman get beat down and assaulted?

[gregintenn]

Very well stated, how could anyone just stand by and watch a woman get beat down and assaulted?

A lot easier than I could spend time in a prison cell with a boyfriend named Bubba because I tried to take charge of a situation I knew nothing about. I have a wife and two children I'm responsible for. In our litigous society, I see how it would be so easy for me to become unable to provide for them due to trying to "do the right thing". Do what you gotta do. I see I'm not going to get anyone here to look at this from a different angle.

[gregintenn]

What if she just stole the guy's wallet, or tried to kidnap his child? What if she'd fired shots at him before you got there? There just isn't enough information here to cause me to want to get involved.

[Punisher84]

A lot easier than I could spend time in a prison cell with a boyfriend named Bubba because I tried to take charge of a situation I knew nothing about. I have a wife and two children I'm responsible for. In our litigous society, I see how it would be so easy for me to become unable to provide for them due to trying to "do the right thing". Do what you gotta do. I see I'm not going to get anyone here to look at this from a different angle.

You mean you aren't going to get anyone to agree with you. I see objective reasoning all over this thread. We all have to live with our choices. If you can hear a woman scream for help and walk away then that's on your conscience.

[Punisher84]

What if she just stole the guy's wallet, or tried to kidnap his child? What if she'd fired shots at him before you got there? There just isn't enough information here to cause me to want to get involved.

These arguments hold no weight. Wouldn't you be close enough to hear shots? Wouldn't you see a child? This is fantasy land stuff man.

[Raoul]

These arguments hold no weight. Wouldn't you be close enough to hear shots? Wouldn't you see a child? This is fantasy land stuff man.

As I said before, I'd be asking questions. I'm an inquiring mind.

[LagerHead]

Greg, the reality is that the what-if's you are proposing are by far the exception. And you are assuming that getting involved means coming in with guns at the ready. Most of the time a guy that's tough enough to be beating the hell out of his wife is going to tuck tail and run as soon as you yell, "Hey!" Then the situations over, the beating stops, and everybody goes home alive. If he's an LEO of some form or fashion he will be informing you rather quickly. If they're filming the next James Bond flick and you fail to notice the 200 crew members standing around with microphones, lights, cameras, and other assorted gear, you don't need to be carrying because you're blind.

Either way, just watching a woman get beat because what MIGHT happen is kind of a weak argument against stepping in. I would certainly hope that should my wife find herself on the receiving end of such a beating that I wouldn't have to explain to my children that "Mommy won't be coming home because a parking lot full of people stood by and watched it happened, but it's OK because if they had intervened there is a chance, however slight, that they could have some day ended up in a court room. They all did the right thing."

No. No they didn't.

[Guest Red5]

SO let's say you did this, and now you've found yourself with a handgun pointed at an undercover DEA agent. You think he ain't fixin to kill you? You can also bet he isn't by himself. The best case would be that you go to prison for threatening a federal agent with a deadly weapon. You're not going to like this, but it's easy to ba a bad a$$ on the internet. I've always been taught that if it gets to the point you need to pull your weapon out, you'd better be shooting. It isn't a microphone; you don't pull it out and make a speech. It seems very risky to stick your nose in someone else's business. Call the police and be a witness. You have the right to defend yourself. So did the woman being attacked. She decided she didn't need to. This shouldn't be a cause for you to possibly screw up your life.

Wait, what??? What is so "internet bad ass" about saying you would go to the aid of a woman, or man, or child, or whomever. It's not about trying to be some hero with a gun, it's about being human.

In some cases maybe i would just call the police, but if a woman is on the ground screaming for help and being tazed by some fruitcake in a Halloween mask, I will "stick my nose" into their business, risky or not.

I really can understand your position and agree with it in some cases, but not this one.

[Guest friesepferd]

They could be filming a movie or something. My point is, if you don't know for certain what's going on, and you aren't personally threatened, you probably should stay out of it. You stand to loose a lot, but there isn't much chance of you gaining anything.

Not much chance of gaining anything? Saving a woman's life? Keeping her from being raped? There is a lot to gain.

Having said that, no, if I saw a lady being tasered, I would not shoot the guy. It of course depends on the exact cercomstance, but in this one, I would run over there. Either with my hand on my gun, or drawn at low ready and say something to the creepy dude in the hocky mask. What I would do from there depends on what he does of course. If he draws a more deadly weapon, Id probably shoot. If he runs away, I let him run. If he says 'Woh, don't shoot. Shes the bad guy". I would remain at low ready and respond and try and figure out whats really going on (while waiting for cops to show up of course). If he ignores me and starts beating the lady or something... well then hes friggin stupid. I guess I would continue to warn him. If I am actually in fear for the ladies life, then I'll do what I have to do.

Personally, I couldn't just walk away, and of course I wouldn't just shoot the guy. I can't stand by and let anyone get killed if I believe I can stop it without putting myself at great risk. (That is, if it were 10 big guys with guns, I might have indeed just called the police, in great fear of my own life getting involved)

[Erik88]

Greg you seem like you have your mind made up so this thread could go on for pages and pages with no progress. The situations you are describing are very far-fetched and have nothing to do with situation in the original post. If a man wearing a Halloween mask attacks a woman in a parking lot the right thing to do would be to at least see if the woman needs help. It will become real clear, real fast, if the woman needs help or if it's just.......(insert crazy unrealistic situation here).

Now, once again I'm not saying you should charge in like Rambo with gun drawn but something must be done. Doing nothing makes you just another sheep in the crowd.

[Lumber_Jack]

I stand by my original post. I have known a few Federal Agents, 2 former DEA, 1 current US Marshall. I am not afraid of them or any other for that matter. my concern is for the woman or man that is in trouble. By approaching you will know really fast who is who. If its an officer they don't just open fire when drawn upon, they have protocol to follow. I really don't believe your life would be at high risk. Although you do assume a certain amount of risk anytime you intervene.

[G27]

I might end up in trouble, but I don't think I could just sit there and watch someone catch a beating from a man.

[JAB]

While Greg's examples might be a bit far-fetched, I see where he is coming from and must say that I largely agree. When I got my HCP, I did so in order to increase my options for protecting myself and my loved ones from the worst in extreme situations. Basically, the reason I want to be able to carry whenever legal is to increase the chances that I and mine will be going home safely at the end of the day. Anything that lessens the chances that I or mine will have the ability to go home safely at the end of the day, including (but not limited to) getting involved in violent situations on a stranger's behalf, runs counter to that mindset and will be avoided. I did not get the HCP so that I could go all Batman and protect the innocent, etc. Further, I never saw that Greg said he would just turn his head and walk away or that he would do nothing. Instead, in his very first post in this thread, he said:

If I didn't have a personal relationship with the woman, I'd call 911. I intend to protect my family and myself. Everyone else, especially those I don't know are free to do the same.

So, what he actually said was:

1. He would attempt to get help by calling 911

2. The majority of adults in TN have the same ability to get an HCP as him. If they choose not to take responsibility for their own protection, why does it suddenly become his responsibility to do so - regardless of gender?

I will further add that, even if they decide not to carry a firearm, those same adults have the ability to carry defensive spray, a taser or other legal means of self defense. If there is even a miniscule risk that I will be harmed, arrested or otherwise suffer negative consequences then it simply is not worth it, to me, to get directly involved on behalf of a stranger. Calling 911 and being a good witness might make me unmanly, a coward or even a despicable human being but, at the end of the day, my unmanly, cowardly, despicable ass will be going home and not to the morgue or to jail. I have a feeling I'd sleep about as well as I usually do.

In all honesty, I would probably even yell out at him from across the street that I had called 911 and the cops were on the way - which, to my mind, is a far cry from jumping right in the middle of the situation. Of course, if he then decides to approach or threaten me and the situation becomes such that I must act in self defense then that changes things.

Edited February 21, 2011 by JAB

[strickj]

I understand what Greg's saying. Well, somewhat anyway... The movie set and all of the irrational fear comments made me laugh!

There was a story posted here sometime back where a man was trying to get his runaway daughter in his car after spotting her in a busy parking lot. The girl, once her father grabbed her, screamed "HELP! I'm being kidnapped!" and [add teenage drama here].

In a scenario like this, rushing in to help and doing the wrong thing, could land you in a world of trouble. But, the thing to keep in mind, in that scenario, the father would not be wearing a halloween mask and tasering the girl. The other key phrase is doing the wrong thing. If you do the wrong thing in either case, then you'll find yourself in trouble.

Now, Greg, no one here has said that they would go in 'guns a blazin', as someone said. And I don't think that a reasonable, rational person would go in 'guns a blazin' in the scenario I mentioned, either. Simply stepping in to aid assistance to someone that may be in need is not going to land you in the pokey.

If you can stand around and watch while a girl is being kidnapped, tased, robed or beaten, by a man in a halloween mask, just because you're afraid of what you'll do...then I honestly don't know what to say.

Maybe you need to take a long look at yourself in the mirror and reevaluate things because I know that I damn well couldn't watch something like that happen.

[Erik88]

you guys are all saying this is a "handgun carry" issue. It's far more simple than that. It's doing the right thing.

[JAB]

you guys are all saying this is a "handgun carry" issue. It's far more simple than that. It's doing the right thing.

And you guys are all thinking that everyone's situation, ability to get involved, etc. is the same as yours. No insult intended to you but I remember being an idealistic college student with clear answers to what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. I have since grown out of those notions.

Back in late August, I was diagnosed with cardiomyopathy. Simply put, although my veins and arteries are 100% clear and I have no evidence of arrhythmia, my heart muscle is weak. In fact, at the time of diagnosis, I was in congestive heart failure (I lost more than 35 pounds of retained water in the week that I spent in the hospital) and my heart was functioning at 15%. The reason for this happening is still not entirely clear.

According to the cardiologist's reading of a subsequent echocardiogram, my function has since increased to a 'whopping' 30%. Hopefully, it has improved more since that last cardio and even more hopefully it will get to at least 45% by May so that I will no longer be a candidate for an implanted defibrulator. I say all of this to say that, although I won't even be 40 until June of this year, I ain't gonna be involved in extreme physical activity such as whoopin' ass any time soon. Further, it was stated that the assailant has a taser. Do you have any idea what a taser might do to someone whose heart is already only functioning at about 30%? I don't - and I don't intend to find out.

For me, that means this is largely a handgun carry issue because, even though I carry pepper spray, etc. when I cannot legally carry a gun the chances of me willingly getting involved and risking severe injury or death on behalf of a stranger because of my already compromised health are just about nil. If I were armed and became involved and the assailant decided to include me in his attack, my only real option at this time would be to shoot the SOB because I am in no condition, currently, to try to fight him or run away. So, for me, 'doing the right thing' for myself and my loved ones - who have to remain #1 when I make such decisions with strangers being about a distant #50 or so - would be to stay the hell out of other people's problems as much as possible. If that makes me a jerk then so be it. I've been a jerk, before, and it can be quite liberating.

Edited February 22, 2011 by JAB

[Punisher84]

And you guys are all thinking that everyone's situation, ability to get involved, etc. is the same as yours. No insult intended to you but I remember being an idealistic college student with clear answers to what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. I have since grown out of those notions.

Back in late August, I was diagnosed with cardiomyopathy. Simply put, although my veins and arteries are 100% clear and I have no evidence of arrhythmia, my heart muscle is weak. In fact, at the time of diagnosis, I was in congestive heart failure (I lost more than 35 pounds of retained water in the week that I spent in the hospital) and my heart was functioning at 15%. The reason for this happening is still not entirely clear.

According to the cardiologist's reading of a subsequent echocardiogram, my function has since increased to a 'whopping' 30%. Hopefully, it has improved more since that last cardio and even more hopefully it will get to at least 45% by May so that I will no longer be a candidate for an implanted defibrulator. I say all of this to say that, although I won't even be 40 until June of this year, I ain't gonna be involved in extreme physical activity such as whoopin' ass any time soon. Further, it was stated that the assailant has a taser. Do you have any idea what a taser might do to someone whose heart is already only functioning at about 30%? I don't - and I don't intend to find out.

For me, that means this is largely a handgun carry issue because, even though I carry pepper spray, etc. when I cannot legally carry a gun the chances of me willingly getting involved and risking severe injury or death on behalf of a stranger because of my already compromised health are just about nil. If I were armed and became involved and the assailant decided to include me in his attack, my only real option at this time would be to shoot the SOB because I am in no condition, currently, to try to fight him or run away. So, for me, 'doing the right thing' for myself and my loved ones - who have to remain #1 when I make such decisions with strangers being about a distant #50 or so - would be to stay the hell out of other people's problems as much as possible.

That's a little different. No one here is saying be a cowboy regardless. Everyone's health, personal ability, etc come into play. Keep in mind while we are debating the extreme of potentially shooting someone, some of us may never need to draw. We may do plenty with our hands.

My point in these arguments has always been "do something". Don't just walk away. I'll be honest I despise people that say they don't get involved because they have a family to protect. Looking out for ourselves only is why this country has gone to ****. If your wife or daughter was being raped and beaten to death in an alley would you really want to find out later that someone just walked by and did nothing? You have heard of Kitty Genovese correct? People are so afraid to intervene out of fear for their own livelihood and it just gives criminals more and more power.

[gregintenn]

Thanks for your input, JAB. I was beginning to think I'm nuts. I often have a hard time conveying my thoughts well. You did better than I've meen able to do.

I worked with a man who went to Dollywood; it might have still been Silver Dollar City at the time. Anyway, at that time, when you rode the train, there was a fake indian attack en route. He almost cut the throat of one of the indians before he'd figured out what was going on.

Often, these things are a split second desicion. You don't just walk up to an altercation and everyone stops and has a discussion. You run a great risk of becomming involved in it, and in turn getting injured or killed, or injuring or killing someone else. I see I'm in the minority here, but I'd fell less badly that the woman was injured or killed than if I had to injure or kill someone. I'd have a hard time with either situation, and I sure hope I'm never involved in something like this.

Once again, she has the right to defend herself as do I, but she evidently made the decision that the police would do it. I'd be happy to call the police and get them to help, but that's about as far as I'd go. I guess I'm a coward.

[gregintenn]

you guys are all saying this is a "handgun carry" issue. It's far more simple than that. It's doing the right thing.

If you get into something like this, it stands a very, very good chance of becoming a handgun carry issue.