Request for examples of "Open carry victim is targeted first"

[Punisher84]

If it has been beaten to death - then kindly provide a link to the thread that includes the requested information.

Why do you think this is about proving someone wrong? This is a thread about getting to the truth. If that means some people end up wrong (possibly even me) - that's a fair price to pay for dispelling incorrect rumor and fiction and replacing it with the correct info... or do you disagree?

It's not a rumor. It's an opinion. It's based on a "What if" scenario. You cannot argue the simple fact that by showing your gun there is at least a chance it could happen. That chance may be insanely small, but if no one knows you have it you can't really be targeted for that purpose can you?

You've also been on this forum since 2008. Are you really going to tell me you've NEVER seen this brought up?

[Punisher84]

We've got to remember that criminals don't normally use rational minds. If they did, they probably wouldn't be criminals. For example, the darwin award for the guy who went to rub a gun store and walked past a cop car. A rational mind would that's stupid. I can't think of very many stories where a BG went up to a cop and took their gun away. 99% of the time, the cop is wrestling the BG and the BG gets the firearm.

Two things. First, there were questions asked years ago of criminals in jail if they would rob someone who they knew was armed. The overwhelming answer was no. Second, cops tend to stick out far more than the avg OC'er (unless they are a mall ninja!) I can see a LEO uniform from across the street and know they are armed. For an avg OC'er you would have to actually see the gun to know they are armed.

Let's just remember that 99% of criminals are really stupid. The smart ones aren't robbing the quickie mart or CVS, they are doing high end crimes (see the TV show white collar.) So while we would logically think things there, logic for them non existent.

I never said criminals were rational. I said a rational mind could draw the link. IE people who carry.

[DRM]

It's not a rumor. It's an opinion. It's based on a "What if" scenario. You cannot argue the simple fact that by showing your gun there is at least a chance it could happen. That chance may be insanely small, but if no one knows you have it you can't really be targeted for that purpose can you?

You just did it yourself.

You started out saying it is an opinion, then shifted to "cannot argue the simple fact".

If you personally feel the need to base your entire carry strategy around ""insanely small chance, but I can't verify it has actually happened, ever" - that is your call to make. However, the problem I have is when you try to act - as you did above - that your opinion is supported by fact, which I have not seen any evidence of to this point.

You've also been on this forum since 2008. Are you really going to tell me you've NEVER seen this brought up?

Again, if you area aware of the info I seek, I'd appreciate you directing me to it.

I don't know why this is so difficult, or why people insist on trying to argue secondary or unrelated issues. I simply asked for supporting evidence. Do you have it? Share it. If not - what exactly are you arguing about, or for? I R Confused...

[Punisher84]

You just did it yourself.

You started out saying it is an opinion, then shifted to "cannot argue the simple fact".

If you personally feel the need to base your entire carry strategy around ""insanely small chance, but I can't verify it has actually happened, ever" - that is your call to make. However, the problem I have is when you try to act - as you did above - that your opinion is supported by fact, which I have not seen any evidence of to this point.

Again, if you area aware of the info I seek, I'd appreciate you directing me to it.

I don't know why this is so difficult, or why people insist on trying to argue secondary or unrelated issues. I simply asked for supporting evidence. Do you have it? Share it. If not - what exactly are you arguing about, or for? I R Confused...

You're killing me dude. Reading not hard. What I'm stating as fact is simply if no one knows you have something there's not a likelihood they will think about taking it, correct? Everything else about this debate IS opinion.

Also, I never said I exclusively CC did I? I'm in the middle on the whole debate, but I'm really tired of the same rehashed threads and "I'm right because I think I am" attitude. I can't recall a single instance where someone was specifically targeted and I assume you know that. Even when Creeky posted what he did you waved it off. Somehow I doubt you would accept a 9/11 commission report sized book giving evidence to the contrary of your opinion.

As for the vast times this has been covered, I'm on my phone at the moment, but when I get to it I'll type "Open Carry debate" into google and post the first 100 links that pop up from every gun forum on earth.

[DRM]

but I'm really tired of the same rehashed threads and "I'm right because I think I am" attitude.

As am I, which is why I asked for evidence.

Or are you trying to say *I* am presenting that attitude?

Even when Creeky posted what he did you waved it off. Somehow I doubt you would accept a 9/11 commission report sized book giving evidence to the contrary of your opinion.

As for the vast times this has been covered, I'm on my phone at the moment, but when I get to it I'll type "Open Carry debate" into google and post the first 100 links that pop up from every gun forum on earth.

Is there a reason for the exaggerated responses? Why are you upset about someone asking for facts?

[RobertNashville]

If it has been beaten to death - then kindly provide a link to the thread that includes the requested information.

Why do you think this is about proving someone wrong? This is a thread about getting to the truth.

If someone told you that the Earth rotates on its axis would you want a link to that as well?

This is at least the third or fourth thread devoted to open carry in just the last couple of weeks (two of which were started by you)...that ought to be some indication of how often this stupid subject is debated here. That aside, you've got access to the "search" function and Google just like everybody else.

I don't see what the point of this thread is...what if there are zero examples...what if there are a thousand examples every day...what difference does it truly make? Would thousands of examples of people who open carry being targeted cause you to never open carry again? Do you think that if there are no examples it will convince those who don't now open carry to start doing so?

I can tell you with absolute certainly that if no one knows I'm carrying then I will not be targeted by a BG as a potential threat to whatever crime is is/wants to commit because he sees me carrying. I can say with equal certainly that if I'm openly carrying that a BG may target me because he sees me as a potential threat. Whether or not it's EVER happened is irrelevant...the logic is sound.

In a state (like Tennessee) where people can open carry, if they don't open carry then it's likely that they just don't want to. Why they don't want to shouldn't matter to anyone but them.

I'm getting the impression that many who open carry can't just be happy and open carry...like a newly converted sinner, they seem to have this innate need to convince everyone else that they need to see things the same way (or maybe just convince themselves that they made the right decision to OC).

You already can carry openly in Tennessee...why don't you just open carry to your heart's content and let those who don't want to not do so.

Edited February 8, 2011 by RobertNashville

[Punisher84]

If someone told you that the Earth rotates on its axis would you want a link to that as well?

This is at least the third or fourth thread devoted to open carry in just the last couple of weeks (two of which were started by you)...that ought to be some indication of how often this stupid subject is debated here. That aside, you've got access to the "search" function and Google just like everybody else.

I don't see what the point of this thread is...what if there are zero examples...what if there are a thousand examples every day...what difference does it truly make? Would thousands of examples of people who open carry being targeted cause you to never open carry again? Do you think that if there are no examples it will convince those who don't now open carry to start doing so?

I can tell you with absolute certainly that if no one knows I'm carrying then I will not be targeted by a BG as a potential threat to whatever crime is is/wants to commit because he sees me carrying. I can say with equal certainly that if I'm openly carrying that a BG may target me because he sees me as a potential threat. Whether or not it's EVER happened is irrelevant...the logic is sound.

In a state (like Tennessee) where people can open carry, if they don't open carry then it's likely that they just don't want to. Why they don't want to shouldn't matter to anyone but them.

I'm getting the impression that many who open carry can't just be happy and open carry...like a newly converted sinner, they seem to have this innate need to convince everyone else that they need to see things the same way (or maybe just convince themselves that they made the right decision to OC).

You already can carry openly in Tennessee...why don't you just open carry to your heart's content and let those who don't want to not do so.

Now that's the best post I've seen in weeks!

[Guest kirkosaurus]

As for the vast times this has been covered, I'm on my phone at the moment, but when I get to it I'll type "Open Carry debate" into google and post the first 100 links that pop up from every gun forum on earth.

I think some people are confused. The OP is not looking to debate OC vs CC. He's looking for proof of one of the arguments of CC carry only people who say that OC'ers are a target. So far the responses have been that this topic has been covered to death but only one example has been pointed to, and it doesn't prove the victim was a target.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

This is at least the third or fourth thread devoted to open carry in just the last couple of weeks (two of which were started by you)...that ought to be some indication of how often this stupid subject is debated here. That aside, you've got access to the "search" function and Google just like everybody else.

I've looked through those devoted open carry threads and don't see anything related to what the question asked in the opening post of this thread. Can you point them out please?

[Punisher84]

I think some people are confused. The OP is not looking to debate OC vs CC. He's looking for proof of one of the arguments of CC carry only people who say that OC'ers are a target. So far the responses have been that this topic has been covered to death but only one example has been pointed to, and it doesn't prove the victim was a target.

Nope. Not confused. It's all been covered. I have had this same conversation before. Most here have.

[DaveTN]

If it has been beaten to death - then kindly provide a link to the thread that includes the requested information.

Why do you think this is about proving someone wrong? This is a thread about getting to the truth. If that means some people end up wrong (possibly even me) - that's a fair price to pay for dispelling incorrect rumor and fiction and replacing it with the correct info... or do you disagree?

Let me get this straight. Common sense does not tell you that if a guy walks into a store to pull a robbery and he sees you open carrying; you will not have all his attention? However… if someone can post a link of internet stories about this happening you will know it is fact?

I can’t post a story of someone leaving their car unlocked with their gun laying on the dash; but I’m pretty sure it’s a bad idea. Common sense.

Why do you care? You can carry either way in this state.

Furthermore… based on what I have seen we could post stories here for a week and it won’t make a difference.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

Nope. Not confused. It's all been covered. I have had this same conversation before. Most here have.

Excellent. So you can point to any threads where this topic has been discussed?

[Punisher84]

Excellent. So you can point to any threads where this topic has been discussed?

Yup. Give me about 15-20 minutes. Hold your hat.

[DRM]

:I don't see what the point of this thread is...

Then kindly stop replying to it, since you are unable to understand it's purpose. Thanks!

[bubbadavis]

Excellent. So you can point to any threads where this topic has been discussed?

Try the search button... This has been covered in most open carry related threads on TGO.

[DRM]

Let me get this straight. Common sense does not tell you that if a guy walks into a store to pull a robbery and he sees you open carrying; you will not have all his attention? However… if someone can post a link of internet stories about this happening you will know it is fact?

You have trouble with simple tasks, don't you?

Common sense told me that the first post I made to this thread made my intentions and request pretty clear, yet you seem unable to understand that... Perhaps -you and Robert could exercise some "common sense" and simply avoid the thread if you have nothing of substance to add to what was requested? Just a thought...

[Punisher84]

I typed "does open carry make you a target" in Google and got...

The "Open carry makes you a target" argument?

Has open carry ever made you a target?

Open Carry: Yes or No? | Gun Digest - The World's Foremost Gun Information Authority

Open carry (good or bad) - TheFiringLine Forums

And here's a couple from TGO!

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/28512-open-carry-story.html

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/8505-open-carry-bad-idea.html

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/45479-open-carry-opinions.html

Now I think several of these fit the bill. What say you all?

[Punisher84]

You have trouble with simple tasks, don't you?

Common sense told me that the first post I made to this thread made my intentions and request pretty clear, yet you seem unable to understand that... Perhaps -you and Robert could exercise some "common sense" and simply avoid the thread if you have nothing of substance to add to what was requested? Just a thought...

I don't think I'd be calling anyone out here. You're all in an uproar because this isn't going the way you wanted. Life sucks like that sometimes. You need to figure out that people are going to hold different opinions on the subject. You don't seem to grasp the basic concept of CHOICE. You're on this mission for someone to show you exactly what you have in your head that you will accept for proof and in the meantime, are completely brushing off many valid points and responses.

Why is it so important to you? It's legal for you to open carry, there is even a whole forum dedicated to open carry. Why can't you just be happy that you live in a state that allows you to CHOOSE your method of carry? Who cares what people in internet land think? It's not affecting YOUR CHOICE.

[DRM]

I don't think I'd be calling anyone out here. You're all in an uproar because this isn't going the way you wanted..

lol... In an uproar? Good one.

[Punisher84]

lol... In an uproar? Good one.

You're the one getting snippy with people.

[DRM]

in the meantime, are completely brushing off many valid points and responses.

Opinions on this subject - as has been stated - can be found all over TGO and other forums, which is why I asked that we leave opinions to those other places. Similarly - OC vs. CC has been debated in a multitude of other threads as well. Thankfully, neither of those are what I asked for, are they?

What I asked for were facts. Why I started a new thread was to focus on the facts, and leave the opinions and discussions to other threads and other places. It seems some of you can't quite handle that, and find yourselves compelled to offer your opinions. That's not my flaw, that's yours.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

Try the search button... This has been covered in most open carry related threads on TGO.

Yes, the argument has been made in other threads, I am aware of that. But once again this thread is not intended to argue that. It is looking for specific examples to back they argument.

[Punisher84]

Opinions on this subject - as has been stated - can be found all over TGO and other forums, which is why I asked that we leave opinions to those other places. Similarly - OC vs. CC has been debated in a multitude of other threads as well. Thankfully, neither of those are what I asked for, are they?

What I asked for were facts. Why I started a new thread was to focus on the facts, and leave the opinions and discussions to other threads and other places. It seems some of you can't quite handle that, and find yourselves compelled to offer your opinions. That's not my flaw, that's yours.

And I say again I just don't think you grasp the overall concept of it. Let me give you a hypothetical and just stay with me ok? If I came in here and posted 2 links that both stated something to the effect of "when arrested the robber told police he shot the man because he saw he had a gun and knew he would be a threat"would you have said "OK. Wow thank you for the proof. I'm going to completely reconsider my OPINION on open carry." OR would you have said "OK 2 incidents in the history of open carry. I still don't see where it just happens enough to worry about."?

My point is even with facts that it HAS happened or COULD happen there are arguments that make sense on both sides of the issue and it boils down to YOUR PERSONAL OPINION on what is best for you. The only reason this becomes a debate is because people want to be right and think their way is best.

[Punisher84]

Yes, the argument has been made in other threads, I am aware of that. But once again this thread is not intended to argue that. It is looking for specific examples to back they argument.

Did you read the various threads I posted? Tell me how those threads are vastly different. Do you truly believe that in the history of this topic no one has ever said "Show me proof!"? How do you think these threads go on for 30 pages?

[DRM]

I typed "does open carry make you a target" in Google and got...

The "Open carry makes you a target" argument?

Has open carry ever made you a target?

Open Carry: Yes or No? | Gun Digest - The World's Foremost Gun Information Authority

Open carry (good or bad) - TheFiringLine Forums

And here's a couple from TGO!

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/28512-open-carry-story.html

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/8505-open-carry-bad-idea.html

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/45479-open-carry-opinions.html

Now I think several of these fit the bill. What say you all?

Thank you for taking the time to post those links. Several of them I had already found myself prior to starting this, and reading through the others, I am not seeing any reference to actual cases supporting the position. Did you find source data in there? If so, can you point to it? What I did see was several stating the same frustration with there being no evidence presented. I also see several links to supporting data against the position that OC makes you a target, however that's not what this thread is about so I decided early on not to clutter the thread up with that data.