Request for examples of "Open carry victim is targeted first"

[DRM]

If this is not the proper forum, my apologies and please move to where it is appropriate.

On the CC/OC debate, one of the primary examples given by proponents of CC is that those OC'ing are at risk of being targeted first by the bad guys.

However, I am not aware of any examples where this is actually happening on a regular basis, if at all.

I would like to offer a challenge for those of you who claim this as part of your reasoning: please provide a source for this happening, somewhere in the United States, to a non-LEO private citizen carrying OC as per the laws of his or her state.

As it stands, I would suggest that this line of thinking is - until proven otherwise - nothing more than an old wives tale or urban legend.

Notice please - this thread is not for you to discuss why you still think CC is better than OC. This is a thread specifically for the purpose of presenting evidence in support of the claim that:

Open carry makes you a target to be taken out first by the bad guys.

[xRUSTYx]

[macville]

In the past two years I've seen one news report about someone open carrying being targeted..and it was a guy walking down a street not paying attention. I still say that BG's have to see that you are open carrying to target you. I've noticed that most americans don't notice anything besides what they are focused on while out in public, and when you consider BG's, they are hopped up on adrenaline and more focused on what they are doing than noticing if someone has a gun on their hip. Plus, add in things between you and the BG (such as the krispy kream wrack in the quickie mart) and the chance of a BG seeing you is slim to nill.

One thing to notice, there are probably less reports of people being targeted because there are so many less people who OC over CC. So there is less chance of being reports because there are less targets. Thing is something that in theory might happen, but we will really never know until we try it. Of course, the anti's said that it would become the wild west with carry permits and that hasn't happened either...

[Punisher84]

Sigh. Hasn't this been covered to death? Just let it go already. Why is it so important to prove everyone wrong? It's an OPINION.

[z90HD]

I for one would actually like to see this one through. I agree Im still new here and have seen the posts about cc vs oc but with no actual proof just opinions. I would like to see what turns up.

[creeky]

Found this after a quick search...

Click HERE for video...

Man Legally Carrying Gun Robbed at Gunpoint

By Melanie Stout

MILWAUKEE - A Milwaukee man found out the hard way that carrying a gun for protection doesn't always keep you safe. In fact, it may have made him a target.

The 34-year-old man legally owned a handgun and carried it out in the open in his holster for protection.

Neighbors say they knew he was always armed.

"It was kind of scary to just see him walking around all the time with that gun kind of just out in the open," said Shambria Mayham Autman. She lives near Teutonia and Good Hope and said they called him "The guy with the gun."

But it wasn't scary for at least one person who robbed "The guy with the gun" at gunpoint.

"I think he was trying to scare people off like, 'Yeah, don't mess with me,' kind of attitude, but it didn't work," Mayham Autman explained.

The president of Wisconsin Carry, Nik Clark, says 100's of thousands of people open carry and he's never heard of anything like this.

"So it really is a very unusual situation, very unique," Clark said.

The victim didn't want to go on camera but said he carried the gun because he had been jumped and held up at knife point in the past. He believes, in his case, open carry made him a target and he will no longer do it.

He said his case proves gun owners should have the right to carry concealed weapons.

Clark agrees. "By and large it is a significant deterrent, open carry is, but I think it really does make the point that Wisconsin should have concealed carry along with open carry so that people who live in a very high crime neighborhood where criminals aren't deterred by firearms would have the ability to conceal carry to protect themselves. The two really work hand in hand," Clark said.

[mikegideon]

Concealed carry isn't legal in Wisconsin... yet

[Guest bkelm18]

Sigh. Hasn't this been covered to death? Just let it go already. Why is it so important to prove everyone wrong? It's an OPINION.

If people were to just let things go, the internet would cease to exist.

[Punisher84]

You know what I've never gotten about this whole idiotic debate? Cops OC. Most citizens CC. Cops are obviously in a different boat than the average person, but criminals still try to take their guns, kill them, etc. I would think a rational mind could understand how someone could draw the link there.

Im not against OC, but I know if I were a criminal, the obvious threats are going first. With enough vigor to be an example to anyone else. But that's me. I know criminals are more compassionate.

[strickj]

You know what I've never gotten about this whole idiotic debate? Cops OC. Most citizens CC. Cops are obviously in a different boat than the average person, but criminals still try to take their guns, kill them, etc. I would think a rational mind could understand how someone could draw the link there.

Im not against OC, but I know if I were a criminal, the obvious threats are going first. With enough vigor to be an example to anyone else. But that's me. I know criminals are more compassionate.

I could prove you wrong, but this has been covered to death so I think I'll just let it go.

[JAB]

I have to wonder what percentage of Americans are ever targeted for 'random' crimes (robbed at gunpoint, shot by an unprovoked/unknown assailant, etc.) in general. Also, I have to wonder how many Americans carry a firearm on any kind of regular basis. Being that both of those numbers would likely be a fairly small percentage of the population as a whole, I have to further wonder how many Americans who carry a firearm on any kind of regular basis, either concealed or openly, also happen to end up in the group of Americans who are targeted for 'random' crimes. I doubt that there are significant enough numbers of Americans who are 1. Targeted for random crimes who 2. carry a firearm on a regular basis and 3. who also carry openly to form any kind of statistically significant evidence in support of either side of the debate.. In other words, because of the relative unlikelihood that someone would meet all three of those criteria, in the first place, I doubt that there is enough data to prove or disprove such a claim.

I could, of course, be wrong. In the interest of fairness, perhaps the OP can provide evidence to support his hypothesis that the idea that OC makes one a target is 'an old wives' tale.' In other words, is there evidence to support the claim that OC doesn't make one a target more than CC?

Edited February 7, 2011 by JAB

[Guest m&pc9]

You know what I've never gotten about this whole idiotic debate? Cops OC. Most citizens CC. Cops are obviously in a different boat than the average person, but criminals still try to take their guns, kill them, etc. I would think a rational mind could understand how someone could draw the link there.

Im not against OC, but I know if I were a criminal, the obvious threats are going first. With enough vigor to be an example to anyone else. But that's me. I know criminals are more compassionate.

+1

And I know some people would make it a challenge to take your gun. Like Gangs in LA or NY.

[vontar]

If people were to just let things go, the internet would cease to exist.

^^^^^This^^^^

I could prove you wrong, but this has been covered to death so I think I'll just let it go.

^^^^This^^^^

strickj, dont' say I never agreed with you.

[Mike.357]

the incident in Milwaukee is the only one I had ever heard of where someone OCing was targeted.

I have never read anything about a cop being targeted for their gun. I have read where a cop and a criminal wrestled over the cops gun, but that was always after the cop instigated making an arrest or a stop.

If you want to OC at least have a good retention system with your holster.

[DRM]

perhaps the OP can provide evidence to support his hypothesis that the idea that OC makes one a target is 'an old wives' tale.' In other words, is there evidence to support the claim that OC doesn't make one a target more than CC?

That's not how it works. The way it works is people who make a claim, have the burden to prove that claim. I am simply asking those who - repeatedly - make a certain claim, to produce evidence to support their claim.

[Guest TheMikeLurie]

I have to wonder what percentage of Americans are ever targeted for 'random' crimes (robbed at gunpoint, shot by an unprovoked/unknown assailant, etc.) in general. Also, I have to wonder how many Americans carry a firearm on any kind of regular basis. Being that both of those numbers would likely be a fairly small percentage of the population as a whole, I have to further wonder how many Americans who carry a firearm on any kind of regular basis, either concealed or openly, also happen to end up in the group of Americans who are targeted for 'random' crimes. I doubt that there are significant enough numbers of Americans who are 1. Targeted for random crimes who 2. carry a firearm on a regular basis and 3. who also carry openly to form any kind of statistically significant evidence in support of either side of the debate.. In other words, because of the relative unlikelihood that someone would meet all three of those criteria, in the first place, I doubt that there is enough data to prove or disprove such a claim.

Yeah... this.

[DRM]

Found this after a quick search...

Click HERE for video...

From my reading of that one incident, there was no real evidence provided that his gun is what caused him to be targeted (in fairness - that is the lone example I found prior to starting this thread). But thank you for providing it.

[DRM]

Sigh. Hasn't this been covered to death? Just let it go already. Why is it so important to prove everyone wrong? It's an OPINION.

If it has been beaten to death - then kindly provide a link to the thread that includes the requested information.

Why do you think this is about proving someone wrong? This is a thread about getting to the truth. If that means some people end up wrong (possibly even me) - that's a fair price to pay for dispelling incorrect rumor and fiction and replacing it with the correct info... or do you disagree?

[creeky]

From my reading of that one incident, there was no real evidence provided that his gun is what caused him to be targeted (in fairness - that is the lone example I found prior to starting this thread). But thank you for providing it.

I mean no offense... you did ask for just one case. One source.

I would like to offer a challenge for those of you who claim this as part of your reasoning: please provide a source for this happening, somewhere in the United States, to a non-LEO private citizen carrying OC as per the laws of his or her state.

It has been provided. Weather or not he was "targeted" specifically... he was still open carrying and was robbed. I have heard many people argue the point that simply open carrying deters crime. In this case it seems it did not.

This (to me) is a moot argument. No one's opinion will be changed, the pros and cons have been exhausted on many gun forums. People should do what they feel is best for themselves and what is comfortable for them.

Telling someone they shouldn't open carry on a gun forum makes about as much sense to me as telling someone they should open carry only. In the end... I do not think anyone's opinions will change, the thread will just disintegrate into name calling.

Then again I could be wrong.

[DRM]

I mean no offense... you did ask for just one case. One source.

All I saw in that case was the article's author claiming it *might* have been an instance of targeting. I also saw quite a bit more data where others researched the case and determined there was no supporting evidence.

It has been provided. Weather or not he was "targeted" specifically... he was still open carrying and was robbed. I have heard many people argue the point that simply open carrying deters crime. In this case it seems it did not.

Actually, it is a significant difference. Not only in what I was asking, but in actually supporting the position of those who make this claim.

This (to me) is a moot argument. No one's opinion will be changed, the pros and cons have been exhausted on many gun forums.

If it has been exhausted - then those who make this claim should find it easy to support it with facts. Can you point us to these exhaustive sources for the data?

[Fallguy]

One might think of OC like putting "The Club" on the steering whell of your car. If someone is just looking for any old car to take, they are liable to pass yours up for an easier one. If they really want your car and are professionals, the club isn't going to stop them.

If a crook is just looking for any old soft target, if they see someone with a firearm, they probably will move on. If you are in a place they really want to rob no matter what or they really want to target you, then you OCing may not be a deterent and could cause them to be more agressive.

[macville]

You know what I've never gotten about this whole idiotic debate? Cops OC. Most citizens CC. Cops are obviously in a different boat than the average person, but criminals still try to take their guns, kill them, etc. I would think a rational mind could understand how someone could draw the link there.

We've got to remember that criminals don't normally use rational minds. If they did, they probably wouldn't be criminals. For example, the darwin award for the guy who went to rub a gun store and walked past a cop car. A rational mind would that's stupid. I can't think of very many stories where a BG went up to a cop and took their gun away. 99% of the time, the cop is wrestling the BG and the BG gets the firearm.

Im not against OC, but I know if I were a criminal, the obvious threats are going first. With enough vigor to be an example to anyone else. But that's me. I know criminals are more compassionate.

Two things. First, there were questions asked years ago of criminals in jail if they would rob someone who they knew was armed. The overwhelming answer was no. Second, cops tend to stick out far more than the avg OC'er (unless they are a mall ninja!) I can see a LEO uniform from across the street and know they are armed. For an avg OC'er you would have to actually see the gun to know they are armed.

Let's just remember that 99% of criminals are really stupid. The smart ones aren't robbing the quickie mart or CVS, they are doing high end crimes (see the TV show white collar.) So while we would logically think things there, logic for them non existent.

[creeky]

If it has been exhausted - then those who make this claim should find it easy to support it with facts. Can you point us to these exhaustive sources for the data?

Your right, I am wrong. I quit.

[DRM]

Your right, I am wrong. I quit.

Is that the standard answer around here for people who lack the ability to support their position? I seem to be seeing it more and more.

[DRM]

If a crook is just looking for any old soft target, if they see someone with a firearm, they probably will move on. If you are in a place they really want to rob no matter what or they really want to target you, then you OCing may not be a deterent and could cause them to be more agressive.

I agree it is a reasonable theory - what I am looking for is evidence to support it actually taking place.