A ? About Accuracy When Using "Sights" vs. "Point and Shoot"

[RobertNashville]

Hello everyone...I'm looking for some insight/opinions about something I've been noticing in my target shooting.

I've been around guns and been shooting most of my life (mostly hunting from about 8 until I left for the Navy) and then, going to the range and shooting mostly for the fun of it up until about a couple of years ago when 1) I got my HCP and started carrying on a regular basis and 2) I started to make a real effort to improve my marksmanship skills.

It's been my experience that when trying to really us the sights on whatever I'm shooting, I find it more natural to close one eye to aim...when I do this I will almost always hit "ok" (center mass, etc)...I realize that closing one eye is NOT the prefered method and that too is something I've been trying to work on.

However, of late, I've found I'm actually much more accurate if I don't really use my sights at all but simply point and shoot (both eyes open all the time for this style).

I've never really practiced point and shoot techniques until recently...I started shooting that way recently because based on what I've been told/learned from those who are supposed to know, it's a good skill to have. Also understand that I'm not simply talking about accuracy as good or just slightly "better" than when really trying to sight in...I'm talking about MUCH better accuracy overall (including hitting the target bulls eye on occasion which I almost never hit when using my sights).

I suppose my questions revolve around whether this is "odd"...whether this is something I should be concerned with...is this just a matter of me needing some real instruction on using my sights better!

It seems very oxymoronic to me that I would be more accurate without aiming with sights than I am when I do aim with my sights.

Any info/thoughts/etc would be appreciated.

Thanks!!!

[mikegideon]

I have a problem shooting with both eyes open. I've been mostly a rifle shooter all my life, and especially these days, shoot a lot with scopes. Something I need to work on. Shooting at stationary targets at a range doesn't help break the habit either.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

It may be something as simple as you not "overthinking" and shooting when it is "good enough" not waiting until it is "perfect".

[DaveTN]

Point Instinct Shooting is eye hand coordination; something you may have a natural ability for. (Especially if you can see where your rounds are hitting)

Using sights is for target shooting. I wouldn’t worry about keeping both eyes open as long as you can achieve the results you want. I can achieve the results I want with one eye closed; so that is what I do.

[dats82]

I shoot pretty much everything with both eyes open unless I have a decently long shot with a rifle, say like over 150 yrds. Keeping both eyes open seems to help me to be able focus on the sights and target or back and forth quicker than with just one eye open. I think that may be a lay-over from when I first started shooting which was primarily with shotguns. I have only been shooting pistols much in the past several years, and I just went with what was more comfortable for me. Luckly, it works out pretty well for me.

However, my main focus with a pistol is to put them on target and not necessarily in the most accurate manner. I think that is more realistic if you were to ever have to use your weapon in a defense situation. You will not have time to worry about the perfect sight picture, and you should have both eyes open to be more aware of your surroundings.

[Jonnin]

What are you shooting at? A man sized target at 20 feet you can point and shoot, heck you can close your eyes and hit it. A 2 inch target at 100 yards is a bit more difficult to hit with point and shoot. At some point, you need the sights, while under defensive situations, point & pray is good enough, even preferred.

I close 1 eye when I shoot, and its good enough for me right now. I have tried keeping both eyes open and it does not work for me, for some reason. At so-called defensive ranges, I can hit the target without even looking at it, for real, if its one of those silly man targets. Aiming at that range is not challenging, I can put all the shots in one hole, and its not good practice, as you want to be able to point-shoot when that close. Practice aiming at 50 feet or more, practice point shooting when close up, you will want to hone both sets of skills.

[RobertNashville]

I guess I should have clarified distances...with a handgun, I tend to practice at 25feet and 50feet...in the case I as citing above, I was really talking about 25feet.

My logic tells me that I should be more accurate when using sights and taking my time regardless of the distance but that doesn't seem to be the case at an distance...maybe it's jut my logic that is flawed.

[Jonnin]

I guess I should have clarified distances...with a handgun, I tend to practice at 25feet and 50feet...in the case I as citing above, I was really talking about 25feet.

My logic tells me that I should be more accurate when using sights and taking my time regardless of the distance but that doesn't seem to be the case at an distance...maybe it's jut my logic that is flawed.

Your logic is fine: aimed should make a tighter group almost up to the point where the gun touches the target. If this is not the case, there could be a dozen reasons for it, including:

1) your gun is no good. It makes 10 inch groups with the sights, and you happen to do a little better with pointing.

2) You are really, really good at point shooting, OR you are really, really bad at aiming. Or both.

3) Your sights are way off, so pointing works better.

4) You do something when aiming that you do not do when pointing such as anticipating recoil, or pulling off with the trigger, or messing up your stance, or something.

5) The point-targets seem better, but are not. For example, you could mistake the concepts of accuracy vs precision. Accuracy is hitting what you aimed at. Precision is doing it the same way all the time, for example, if you are precise, and your sights are off 3 feet to the left, you have a 2 inch group 3 feet to the left, terrible accuracy but great shooting (here, the gun is at fault).

6) fancy sights (red dot, laser pointer, scope, etc). These can fail at various ranges as they often sit too high on the gun, making a high/low error as you get closer/farther from the target. Iron sights are less prone to this but they also do it if you get really, really close (again, if you touch the barrel to the target, it shoots below the point of aim by a good inch or so....)

7)Shooting too fast when "aiming". The first shot goes where you aim, your hand moves during recoil, and the next shots go all over the place... double tap practice and aiming are mutually exclusive, for example, and can lead to some pretty strange looking groups.

and so forth. Its worth your time to figure this out, there has to be a reason for it. Unfortunately, without seeing you in action and being able to take the gun in hand, the cause is not easy for another reader to identify.

[RobertNashville]

Thanks for the detailed reply!

I doubt my guns are the problem but I suppose that could be...I guess I'll just have to keep practicing and try to figure out what is going on. Maybe also at some point, some good, personal one-on-one instruction wouldn't be bad either!

[mav]

I used to have a problem with shooting by just using my dominant eye and closing the other. That is how I started off shooting, and it felt, as you said, natural. I finally got to the point of teaching myself to shoot with both eyes open. After several thousands of rounds of shooting with both eyes open, I finally got the hang of it. Now, it isn't really an issue.

In regards to point vs. sight shooting, I am pretty much a sight guy. I have shot so much using sights, that is incredibly difficult for me to not use them. I have improved some that I can use the front sight only while ignoring the rear, but I still can't point shoot worth a crap. It is something I never practice.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I have shot so much using sights, that is incredibly difficult for me to not use them. I have improved some that I can use the front sight only while ignoring the rear, but I still can't point shoot worth a crap. It is something I never practice.

I will fix that for you at the end of April....

[Guest ARMEDMARINE]

I mostly shoot for defensive. combat type shooting so i almost always point and shoot.

[RobertNashville]

After a few more range sessions I've started to see a pattern.

At the range, I use the "law enforcement" type of target which has the "black" silhouette of a man with scoring zones - I usually augment these at center mass and the head with "Shoot-n-See" round targets (saves a lot of time bringing the target back just so I can see where I hit!). Also, for comparison/sake of consistency purposes, I've been limiting my practice specifically to 7, 15, and 25 yards.

At distances of 7 and 15 yards, I'm seem to do a pretty good job of "point and shoot" type shooting - I wouldn't call my groups "tight" but they are not bad (at least I don't think they are) and it's rare that I lose a round outside of the "Shoot-n-See" target zone at either center mass or head (even when i do they are usually well inside the overall target zone).After practice now, I seem to do almost as using my sights with my left eye closed. Trying to sight with both eyes open is still an issue for me..

Practicing more at 25 yards I do, find that my shots are better placed using my sights (again, left eye closed).

I've no idea if my experience is "normal" or not but I do think some good instructions will be helpful...I've never had any significant instruction shooting a handgun except for the military so I guess it's well past time for me to get some.

Edited March 1, 2011 by RobertNashville

[peejman]

I have similar experience and I think it's related to eye dominance. "Front sight" shooting for me requires left eye shut. Close range point shooting with both eyes open works reasonably... groups are big, but not unreasonably so. What I've read on this topic says that while I have a "dominant" eye, it's dominance isn't very strong. Hence, using the sights with both eyes open just doesn't work very well. I've read that you can train eye dominance by simply taping the lens in your shooting glasses over your non-dominant eye. You can then keep the eye open but it can't see anything. Practicing like this helps your brain learn to disregard the vision from your non-dominant eye when shooting. Eventually you won't need to block it and will be able to use the sights with both eyes open. Or so I've read.

[chances R]

one can see numerous video and read accounts of multiple shots being fired and nothing being hit. These are real life encounters with professional lawmen as well as private citizens. There is a big difference in training for defensive purpose vs. target shooting. I would encourage specified defensive training if that is your goal and purpose. Like you, I have shot for years, but until I finished a 4 day course at Front Sight, I just thought I knew what I was doing. It is money well spent. Additionally, dry practice is mandatory (and cheaper) in developing and elevating your response. I'm sure there are several other courses available, but you will need to continue your 'perfect practice' with purpose in mind.

[RobertNashville]

one can see numerous video and read accounts of multiple shots being fired and nothing being hit. These are real life encounters with professional lawmen as well as private citizens. There is a big difference in training for defensive purpose vs. target shooting. I would encourage specified defensive training if that is your goal and purpose. Like you, I have shot for years, but until I finished a 4 day course at Front Sight, I just thought I knew what I was doing. It is money well spent. Additionally, dry practice is mandatory (and cheaper) in developing and elevating your response. I'm sure there are several other courses available, but you will need to continue your 'perfect practice' with purpose in mind.

Actually, I've got several things scheduled this year, mostly on fighting pistol with on course on carbines - one of my goals for myself this year was to get in some good training.

I do understand and do agree that there are significant differences between shooting for precision/target purposes and shooting in a defensive situation...the main point of this thread was dealing with, what seemed to me, to be a somewhat unusual observation of "point and shoot" shooting vs really using the sights proficiently.

[DaveTN]

the main point of this thread was dealing with, what seemed to me, to be a somewhat unusual observation of "point and shoot" shooting vs really using the sights proficiently.

It’s not either/or. You need the ability to do both. The point is that in a shooting you will probably react based on your training. If you only use sights, you will try to get a sight picture. It is possible in the right situation that could cost you your life.

[Guest FIST]

I have tried shooting with both eyes open and can only seem to do it with an EO-Tech or Aimpoint. When trying to shoot a pistol with both eyes open are you supposed to focus front sight only and disregard everything else?

[EastHipster]

Learn to use your sights.

If you have to fire before you get a clean picture, then so be it...

But if you are "more accurate when you don't use your sights" then there is a problem.

I'm FINALLY getting comfortable with both eyes open.

One benefit of shooting that way is that your vision is actually better.

So if you can do it, it is nice.

Dryfire practice is the way to learn it.

Set up a target and doing a million reps of raising the pistol and getting a sight picture.

I throw a couple of tennis balls it in my back yard and shoot them with airsoft.

Raise pistol, shoot one, repeat...

[EastHipster]

P.S.

Your eye can only focus at one place at a time.

You have to train your eye a bit....look at the Target, push the sights into your Focal plane, shift focus to the front sight.

It becomes easy and automatic.

And again...don't just try it at the Range.

Your best practice for this happens without firing.

The most common problem once you have your front sight focus is to then immediately "look for the hit" on the Target RIGHT after you fire. Ruins your accuracy.

[Guest ORgunner]

I have been a one eye shooter for 8 years now and i recently learned to shoot with both eyes open to include pistol, shotgun, compound bow, rifles. The key to shooting with both eyes is to focus on the target. In a defensive situation your never going to have the time to focus in on your sights and then tell the bad guy im ready to fight. Focus on the target and naturally your point of aim will take over and your sights will become clear. The big problem is and i had this same problem was that i was so used to focusing on my front sight that when i tried two eyed shooting, the target would double or my sights would double. It is definitely strange at first but your eyes will get used to it the more you practice. Eventually when you raise any weapon it will become instinct to focus on the target and not the front sight. If at anytime when trying to learn this concept you get double vision or are confused just remember: FOCUS ON THE TARGET and your front sight will align properly. Here is a little test you can do. Pick a target and do your regular dominant eye sight picture, your front sight should be spot on. Now open both eyes and focus on the target until it is not double vision....now hold. Now close one eye so that your dominant eye is in charge. If done properly both should be at the same point on the target. If you can do that, then just practice using two eyes until it is natural.

[RobertNashville]

P.S.

Your eye can only focus at one place at a time.

You have to train your eye a bit....look at the Target, push the sights into your Focal plane, shift focus to the front sight.

It becomes easy and automatic.

And again...don't just try it at the Range.

Your best practice for this happens without firing.

The most common problem once you have your front sight focus is to then immediately "look for the hit" on the Target RIGHT after you fire. Ruins your accuracy.

Thanks for the info. A couple of weeks ago I audited a class at Range Master (required before they would let me take their Level II handgun class) and even though it was what they do for the HCP process, they spent quite a bit of time on shooting including a lot of what you just told me. I suppose sometimes we get so tied up in gadgets and getting more advanced we can forget the basic stuff!

I have been a one eye shooter for 8 years now and i recently learned to shoot with both eyes open to include pistol, shotgun, compound bow, rifles. The key to shooting with both eyes is to focus on the target. In a defensive situation your never going to have the time to focus in on your sights and then tell the bad guy im ready to fight. Focus on the target and naturally your point of aim will take over and your sights will become clear. The big problem is and i had this same problem was that i was so used to focusing on my front sight that when i tried two eyed shooting, the target would double or my sights would double. It is definitely strange at first but your eyes will get used to it the more you practice. Eventually when you raise any weapon it will become instinct to focus on the target and not the front sight. If at anytime when trying to learn this concept you get double vision or are confused just remember: FOCUS ON THE TARGET and your front sight will align properly. Here is a little test you can do. Pick a target and do your regular dominant eye sight picture, your front sight should be spot on. Now open both eyes and focus on the target until it is not double vision....now hold. Now close one eye so that your dominant eye is in charge. If done properly both should be at the same point on the target. If you can do that, then just practice using two eyes until it is natural.

Thanks! I've been doing better with both eyes open than I used to and my accuracy isn't bad but I know there is still a lot of room for improvement; I guess that's why we practice.

[EastHipster]

RE: Focusing on the Target instead of your Front Sight

You might be able to 'get a hit' that way but you won't be able to Call Shots and you won't (likely) be able to have intelligent followup shots.

I didn't come up with this on my own or anything.

Just following the example of guys that can shoot FAST and still know where the rounds are going.

[wjh2657]

Although, through three years as a sniper in RVN I did use my rifle "for real" many times, (with telescopic sight and careful aiming), I only had to use my hand gun (old Remington-Rand .45 1911A1) three times in all six years I served "in country". Each time I used it I could not remember afterwards if I actually aimed it or if I ever saw the sights. Adversaries were very close and moving towards me and am pretty sure I just pointed the whole gun at them. I now practice mostly at close range (< 25 feet) and use a modified fast sight picture point method of firing. I am pretty sure that if I ever, *** forbid, have to use my J Frame against a civilian BG that I will not remember any sight picture afterwards!

BTW, I was a GUNSITE graduate before two of those shoots in RVN and I can guarantee you I did not use a "Weaver" position to fire either!

When an adversary jumps out of nowhere and is moving toward you fast from under 25' all of those neat "competition and school" moves go right out the window. I really feel like most of us who carry need to practice more realistically, close in and not too fancy. Point shooting or any of its modifications is definitely a more natural way to shoot in a SD situation.

[chances R]

I think it will all go back to your training. There is a saying that one will only be 50% as good as your skill level, and that you can't miss fast enough to get good hits. At close range, <7yds, just putting the front sight on the target should give you a hit. More distance= more time needed to align your sight picture/sights. One can read numerous accounts of multiple shots being fired at close range and nobody gets a scratch. No doubt these shooters had a) very low skill level to start with or thought point shooting was good enough.

Edited May 28, 2012 by chances R