The Myth of Energy Transfer

[TGO David]

I'm not going to copy and paste the contents of this here, but you all really need to read it.

The Myth of Energy Transfer

[Lumber_Jack]

What bullet is best? It's one you can shoot accurately under stress that's capable of penetrating deeply enough to inflict fatal hemorrhage and reliably functions in your gun. There's nothing mystical or complicated about handgun ammunition wounding effectiveness. It's simple: placement and penetration.

This is all you need to know in the caliber debate! great article

[chadbuddy]

Good read, I have to try the SWAG test next time I go up to Norris, ha ha.

[Oh Shoot]

Good read, I have to try the SWAG test next time I go up to Norris, ha ha.

Where ya gonna find the paper half gallon milk cartons?

- OS

[nightrunner]

Good read

[strickj]

Nice read.

Where ya gonna find the paper half gallon milk cartons?

- OS

I would suggest using cardboard OJ containers, but it spificially said to use milk so I guess you're just screwed.

[Lumber_Jack]

Where ya gonna find the paper half gallon milk cartons?

- OS

Organic milk comes in cartons, and its a real bargain at $6 for a half gallon.

[Guest Drewsett]

Great read, thanks for posting it David

[StPatrick]

Good read, I have to try the SWAG test next time I go up to Norris, ha ha.

Good article, again reinforcing the idea that while we want expansion, we need penetration, and even after that it's still all about placement.

Also, SWAG has traditionally stood for "scientific wild-assed guess". Not important, but we sciencey types are nitpicky like that.

[creeky]

That is a very good article!

[7dogguy]

Good read, thank you for sharing the link.

[mikegideon]

Good one. Kinetic energy is useful when you're breaking cinder blocks. I've always believed Marshall and Sanow was BS.

[Oh Shoot]

...I would suggest using cardboard OJ containers, but it spificially said to use milk so I guess you're just screwed.

Organic milk comes in cartons, and its a real bargain at $6 for a half gallon.

Far out, guess I haven't been that observant, didn't realize anything still came in cartons instead of plastic.

The official testing may now proceed, y'all.

- OS

[peejman]

The engineer in me doesn't like the title... energy transfer is quite real.... but shot placement is obviously the most important.

[Steelharp]

Most excellent read. Thanks.

[Lumber_Jack]

The engineer in me doesn't like the title... energy transfer is quite real.... but shot placement is obviously the most important.

agreed, its more of how the engery is transfered than the lack of transfer. But with that said, his points still seem valid.

[dunndw]

Wonder how Metalhead would act if a bunch of us showed up with a case of milk cartons to use on the range :-)

[Guest archerdr1]

good info!

[hipower]

Good articel. It would seem to validate my use of fmj rather than hp in pocket pistols like the Keltecs and LCPs. I've liked the Privy Partisan 380 for quite some time. It's a somewhat hot load 380 and functions well in both of mine. JMHO.

[Volphin]

Instead of using milk cartons, you could use Ballistics Gel. Here is a good formula to make it, although it is not "calibrated".

http://www.customcartridge.com/pdfs/BallisticGel.pdf

HTH

V

[Guest gw2and4]

Good read.

[Defender]

Interesting. This supports something I read recently, but from an opposite position, i.e. if YOU are the one that is shot, with a possibly fatal wound...can you continue the fight or not. The answer was that depending on the wound, you CAN possibly continue the fight...the scenario was one where you are protecting your family and are wounded, fatally. The article, which I can't remember where I read it :-( , talked about the psychological aspects as well, and how the human body, even in the face of some fatal wounds, CAN continue to function if the mind demands it to. Granted a fatal wound is a fatal wound, but the fact that one has been shot does not NECESSARILY mean that one has to immediately lay down and die. The fight may be possibly continued, giving you the opportunity to kill the BG before he harms your family. It went on to quote various documented cases, where sometimes a person just gave up and collapsed and some didnt. I wish I could remember where the article was so I coulld share it, because it actually specified just how many seconds the body could continue to operate at full steam, even after a lethal wound, for long enouigh to nullify the threat...

[JAB]

This takes the theme of barewoolf's post even further. I found out about this guy while trying to find more info on an incident reported in another thread on TGO where a lone Gurkha soldier fought off 40 bandits with just his kukri.

The gentleman in question, Lachhiman Gurung, was a Gurkha soldier who fought in WWII and ended up being awarded the Victoria Cross. In the incident in question, he was throwing Japanese hand grenades back at the enemy when one of them exploded in his right hand. His fingers were blown off and his hand and forearm shattered, he had shrapnel in the right side of his body and his right leg and his right eye was destroyed. However, not only did this badass survive, he picked up his rifle - operating it with only his left hand - and fought for four more hours, killing 31 Japanese soldiers and saving his comrades who were incapacitated by the grenade blast. Not only did this fellow live long enough to keep fighting and overcome the enemy, he stayed in the military and lived another 50+ years.

Gurkha Lachhiman Gurung: Victoria Cross hero dies aged 93 | Mail Online

I'd guess that a hand grenade exploding that close to you would deliver a heck of a lot more energy than a handgun bullet. Then, again, I'd also guess that having your right hand blown off would cause you to lose a lot more blood a lot more quickly than even a handgun bullet that penetrates to and destroys vital tissues.

Honestly, my guess is that some people are just physically tougher than others (mental toughness probably plays a part, too.) In a fight, those folks are probably going to kill you even if you have a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot and blow a hole in their torso big enough to throw a cat through. If you end up facing one of them, unless you are also such a person, it probably isn't going to matter what you shoot them with, you are done for. However, I also believe that with the vast majority of the population - especially the type of opportunistic criminals we are likely to face (as opposed to death squads that have been specifically assigned to take us out) the other end of that spectrum also holds true - as in, no matter what you shoot them with they are not likely to continue attempts to victimize you and yours. That doesn't mean I plan to carry a .22LR (at least, not as long as I can handle a bigger caliber) but I also don't fear that my 9mm, ,357 (even loaded with .38s) or .380 are just going to make the assailant laugh as he strangles me with my own intestines. My suspicion is that there is a much broader array of firearms, calibers and ammo that will 'get the job done' with the majority of attackers than the proponents of either 'penetration and blood loss' or 'energy transfer/stopping power' will allow.

Edited February 4, 2011 by JAB

[jay1313g]

Let me start by saying that I get the point of the article and agree with it but......

I have never held a job in my lifetime that required me to carry a firearm to protect myself or others. (Other than being a husband and father.) I have taken classes beyond the basic HCP class but, nothing to the extent of the miliarty or LEO must go through. These are the people I look to for recommendations on what works the best. I realize that politics and money can skew their decisions. What do most LEOs use? .40, I believe. The general military is regulated to, through politics and confroming to NATO, 9mm but, certain parts of the military get to choose what they want to carry and from what I have read, get a stipend to buy what they want. What do Delta Force Operators choose? .45 These guys have a job than can involve "quickly incapacitating" people more than any other profession I have ever heard of and they don't choose 9mm.

I agree that the average citizen will, more than likely, be able to better shoot 9mm. The article does end with the little caveat of "shoot the biggest caliber you can control" but, I wish it would explain why people that rely on .40 and .45 for a living made the choice over 9mm.

I'm not trying to invoke a caliber war and don't even own a .45 right now. (I've had a few and loved them though.) I prefer to shoot my 9mm any day over my .40 but, I ask myself why so many Police Departments went to .40. I refuse to be a person that makes decisions based on just one source of information. That's the beauty of a forum. We get to discuss so many sides!

Jay

[Lumber_Jack]

Let me start by saying that I get the point of the article and agree with it but......

I have never held a job in my lifetime that required me to carry a firearm to protect myself or others. (Other than being a husband and father.) I have taken classes beyond the basic HCP class but, nothing to the extent of the miliarty or LEO must go through. These are the people I look to for recommendations on what works the best. I realize that politics and money can skew their decisions. What do most LEOs use? .40, I believe. The general military is regulated to, through politics and confroming to NATO, 9mm but, certain parts of the military get to choose what they want to carry and from what I have read, get a stipend to buy what they want. What do Delta Force Operators choose? .45 These guys have a job than can involve "quickly incapacitating" people more than any other profession I have ever heard of and they don't choose 9mm.

I agree that the average citizen will, more than likely, be able to better shoot 9mm. The article does end with the little caveat of "shoot the biggest caliber you can control" but, I wish it would explain why people that rely on .40 and .45 for a living made the choice over 9mm.

I'm not trying to invoke a caliber war and don't even own a .45 right now. (I've had a few and loved them though.) I prefer to shoot my 9mm any day over my .40 but, I ask myself why so many Police Departments went to .40. I refuse to be a person that makes decisions based on just one source of information. That's the beauty of a forum. We get to discuss so many sides!

Jay

I believe that when he stresses penetration he is addressing caliber as well. Now there is a common photo showing ballistic gel where all of the common service calibers penetrate past the 12 inches he describes. Where I believe caliber is a factor with penetration is the fact that we as humans are not made of balistic gel, but rather of bones and muscle usually covered by some types or clothing or jackets. That's why I carry a .45. Now I know lots of people who carry 9mm and I wouldn't hesitate to trust my life too it, but I prefer the .45. Lots of LE still carry 9mm and it works well. The biggest myth I think addressed is the "down with one shot". We should be prepared to shoot as many times as necessary and make sure the bullets hit the target

Edit: check out this forum post for the ballistic gel photo

Handgun self-defense loads - High Drag Low Speed

Edited February 6, 2011 by Lumber_Jack