So what's the story on the Saiga 12?

[East_TN_Patriot]

I've looked around the web and can't seem to find a clear answer. Is this shotgun actually at risk due to a change in BATF regulations saying it can't be imported because it doesn't meet their standards for a "sporting" shotgun? Some folks say yes, some say no. Some say one is insane if they don't buy one now before the change, others say people are insane for "panicking" and buying them up. Can someone here give me the scoop?

[BryanP]

From what I've seen, the BATF has commissioned a study regarding whether certain imported shotguns meet the Sporting Purposes clause. Here's the link:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf

As to what you should do, who knows? Me, I'm not doing anything because I don't particularly want an AK style shotgun. If I really wanted one I might be looking at getting one now rather than later.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Thanks for that link. Here's what I think is the most significant statements from that report:

"Therefore, we recognized that any shotgun with one or more of these features represent a “type” of firearm that is not “generally recognized as particularly suitable or readily adaptable to sporting purposes” and may not be imported under section 925(d)(3).

(1) Folding, telescoping or collapsible stock

(2) Bayonet Lug

(3) Flash Suppressor

(4) Magazine over 5 rounds, or a Drum Magazine

(5) Grenade Launcher Mount

(6) Integrated Rail Systems

(7) Light Enhancing Devices

(8) Excessive Weight

(9) Excessive Bulk

(10) Forward Pistol Grip or Other Protruding Part Designed or Used for Gripping the Shotgun with the Shooter’s Extended Hand

While the features listed above are the most common non-sporting shotgun features, the working group recognizes that other features, designs, or characteristics may exist. Prior to importation, ATF will classify these shotguns based upon the requirements of section 925(d)(3). The working group expects the continued application of unique features and designs to shotguns that may include features or designs based upon traditional police or military tactical rifles. However, even if a shotgun does not have one of the features listed above, it may be considered “sporting” only if it meets the statutory requirements under section 925(d)(3). Further, the simple fact that a military firearm or feature may be used for a generally recognized sporting purposes is not sufficient to support a determination that it is sporting under 925(d)(3). Therefore, as required by section 925(d)(3), in future sporting classifications for shotguns, ATF will classify the shotgun as sporting only if there is evidence that its features or design characteristics are generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to generally recognized sporting purposes.

The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications, including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm. This may be overcome by evidence that the particular shotgun or feature has been so regularly used by sportsmen that it is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes..."

So, it looks like the Saiga 12 is not at risk of being banned for importation since in it's basic configuration, it doesn't possess any of those traits (AFAIK). I suppose the only question would be whether you could add any of the aftermarket accessories mentioned above, which I think would be a violation of federal law. Basically, if you just want the shotgun, it's not worth it, but if you want the shotgun so you can trick it out with all of the toys, better get it now and start putting the parts on it with the hope that they will grandfather it in. Anyone have any opinions on that analysis?

[Seaslug]

There will be nothing to "grandfather in", as possessing a tricked-out Saiga-12 will not suddenly become illegal (so long as it's 922r-compliant) even if BATFE does ban their importation. It will simply mean that no more sporterized Saiga-12's will be coming into the country, so demand will go up considerably for the ones that are already here. Their supply already dried up once in the recent past (as an untold number of guns were held up in customs for months), and prices went through the roof.

As for your original question, I would not be surprised at all to see BATFE act, as the authors of the report were kind enough to include a nice, big picture of an MD Arms 20-round drum in their discussion of all the things that could be added to a shotgun to make it "evil". Rail systems, foregrips, and the various stock configurations are all extremely common, also. Let's put it this way: I won't be selling my Saiga anytime soon, and I've considered picking up another just for the heck of it...

[Guest Grot]

This is Kinda OT but is there anywere in East TN that sells Saigas?

[M1_Garand]

Frontier Firearms had a 20 gauge Saiga, but I took it home with me. I tried to see if I could order a 12, but they were back ordered.

[Guest Grot]

Haha, i would have settled for a 20 gauge. So i guess i just need to get lucky to find one.

[East_TN_Patriot]

There will be nothing to "grandfather in", as possessing a tricked-out Saiga-12 will not suddenly become illegal (so long as it's 922r-compliant) even if BATFE does ban their importation. It will simply mean that no more sporterized Saiga-12's will be coming into the country, so demand will go up considerably for the ones that are already here.

OK. My thinking was that there would be "pre-ban" and "post-ban" issues like when the old Brady crap was in place. In other words, in this scenario you couldn't take a post-ban import and add any toys to it without violating the law, but if it was an earlier import you could make the alterations before hand. Either way, I have no need for a Saiga, hadn't really seriously thought about one, heard about this, and saw one in a shop. Maybe a little investment gun?

[willis68]

You guys who own them should feel very lucky, one of my colleges lives in Manchester England, he just bought a Saiga 12 that had to have a 20 inch barrel to be legal and he paid 1500 Pounds, which is over 2K US

Isn't it nice to be Americans we sometimes take that for granted

[Moped]

I wish I could find a 20 or a 12 and also wish I had the money to afford one! I think it would be a good investment!

[Guest bkelm18]

This is Kinda OT but is there anywere in East TN that sells Saigas?

I know South Clinton Pawn had one or two a few weeks ago. Not sure of the caliber.

[~48_South~]

Why would it not suddenly become illegal,thats what happend to the SWD/Cobray Streetsweeper, the Armsel Striker-12 and the USAS-12 all 3 were reclassified after being regularly available on the civi market to Class 3 Destructive Devices ? If you were to not have one registered within the grace period the BATF allowed then you would now be in possesion of an unregistered DD which would = some serious trouble if caught. I would say that if the Saiga were to be reclassified it will no doubt follow the same fate.

[Lumber_Jack]

I dont believe they are classifying them as Class 3, just not allowing import under there sporting classificaitons

[2000silverz28]

What do they go for? I found one for $400 with 7 mags. Is that a good deal? Should I pick it up?

[Guest Grot]

No thats a horrible deal, if you send me the info i will take care of the guy...

[Lumber_Jack]

What do they go for? I found one for $400 with 7 mags. Is that a good deal? Should I pick it up?

A guy at the last Knoxville gun show was selling saiga mags for $50 each, at that rate it would be worth it just for the mags.

[2000silverz28]

Well I'm picking it up monday along with a romanian ak47. I think I'm getting a pretty good deal on them.

[Guest Grot]

I would have to agree you are

[Magiccarpetrides]

Thats a great deal.....ya need to jump on it....

[Hershmeister]

crazy good deal - your're basically buying one rifle and getting the other for free