Can't use Bersa for HCP test

[DRM]

Bersa or other gun with a similar track record

I'd be interested in finding out what this "similar track record" is, exactly.

[DaveTN]

Sounds like the guy was trying to help your daughter and your son in law out. Because he didn’t know them maybe he should have used a little more tact. But since you bought the gun for her you probably were going to be pizzed if he said anything detrimental about it.

You are talking about a tool you are buying to save your daughter’s life. I know what I would say if my daughter called me and ask about a questionable gun. My daughter has even asked me about some higher end guns that I have told her to stay away from.

Am I a gun snob or a concerned father? Both…. And not ashamed of it.

[tnhawk]

About 12 years ago my wife and I went to a range in Memphis to practice before taking an HCP class. The owner of the range told her she should get a more dependable gun and throw the new AMT in the garbage. He brought a Kahr from the display case and box of ammo into the range for us to shoot. She used my 1911 to qualify, with the highest score in the class. As she thought the 1911 was too large, we bought the Kahr and it's still being used. The attitude of range owner resulted in my use of his range for many years. Some of the employees at local ranges and stores need to use more tact in dealing with customers.

Edited January 30, 2011 by tnhawk

[Westwindmike]

Tact and salesmanship are two things that gun shop employees need to have or be taught. I have been "talked out of" more guns in a gun shop, than I have been talked in too.

[MphsTiger1981]

As has been stated, there are two sides to every story. We were not there, so it's only the word of the OP vs Mr. Givens giving defense of his employee. Mr. Givens has further stated RangeMaster's has a somewhat strict policy regarding which guns they allow for the HCP class and the thinking behind this policy. He also stated they provide a pistol to take the class at no charge. The free gun is a very nice touch, no doubt. Likewise, no one wants to be told the gun he bought for his loved one in so many words is a p.o.s..

I will further add that I have had personal experiences with RangeMaster, having both purchased a pistol from them, and taken a tactical pistol class there. I found the instructors to be professional and very informative. I left there much more accomplished and confident in my abilities than I was before taking the class. Mr. Givens has earned national reputation as one of the nations leading self defense instructors.

I have stopped by in the middle of the day browsing the showroom. I have had the opportunity to personally discuss my ccw needs with Mr. Givens. He was no doubt busy, but treated me with respect, was quick and to the point about what would best serve my needs. For that, I was both grateful and impressed with his knowledge. Tom Givens is indeed a smart man, who knows his craft.

That being said, I have also, on occasion, personally been spoken to and observed others spoken to in short, curt, somewhat rude manner by the staff. Whether or not it is fairly earned, RangeMasters staff has developed a reputation for sometimes displaying a somewhat less than the accommodating "customer comes first" attitude towards the general shooting public. And yes, "any one can have a bad day", but you can visit any of the other ranges in this area and it would be very rare to have someone on staff come across as gruff, short or rude, even on a bad day. Customer service seems to receive a much higher focus at RangeMaster's local competitors. I know this because I personally frequent the others more so now than I do RangeMasters for this very reason.

I fully understand that these guys are busy, and they are in a very serious business, and I might add that they are in a high crime neighborhood and probably get cased for robbery about once every three or four weeks. With that in mind, I don't expect the staff to pretend they work at a daycare center or run a Sunday School. I also think the old saying about "be polite but have a plan to kill everyone you meet" comes to mind. Obviously the staff has a plan to kill us, but what about the polite part?

The bottom line is just that. If RangeMasters can continue to not just exist, but to thrive economically in our community doing business as they have in the past, then obviously the staff is not as bad as the reputation they have developed. But, if they really do treat customers poorly for an extended period of time, then the shooting public will respond the way that speaks the loudest, they will take their business elsewhere.

[Louisb]

I guess I ave a slightly different take on this.

Most jams seem to be ammo or magazine related.

As for MEM range;

Tell her to call the range and ask to speak to the manager/owner.

Tell them what happened and ask if that is the ranges policy or just one of the employees running off customers.

IF that is their policy then another memphis location or one of the courses of instruction here in Nashville area is where she needs to be.

[Punisher84]

I'll say it like this Tom is a great instructor, but his staff at RangeMaster is the reason Range USA is so busy.

Tell her to go there.

[Metalhead]

It's amazing the reactions some of you guys have when someone says something negative about your chosen handgun. You get way too emotionally invested in what is essentially just a tool. Nobody said your child is ugly or stupid. I taught an advanced class this morning and was gone later in the day, so it wasn't me the complainant spoke with, but I really doubt the staff person she spoke with was rude or an asshat. He probably tried to explain why we don't use Bersa's in class.

Our staff sees about a million rounds go downrange every year, and have for 15 years. That is way more opportunity to see how various brands work/hold up than any individual shooter will ever see. People bring in Bersa pistols to shoot fairly frequently when the range is available to the public. We VERY often have to go out and show them how to clear repeated malfunctions or explain what happened when the gun broke, as in a part breaks. We have a Bersa in the classroom donated by a student because the front of the slide broke off and fell on the bench on the 7th shot out of a new gun.

In class, we have 20 students shooting and a schedule to keep, so when people show up with a Bersa or other gun with a similar track record, we loan them a gun of ours and supply the ammo for it, at no charge. If, after the class, they want to carry the (insert whatever brand here) they are free to do so, but by loaning them a better gun we avoid tying up class time repeatedly fixing guns that don't work. That makes the experience better for all the other students in that class. That's not being an asshat.

Once you get your HCP, carry whatever you like.

IMO, thats crap - no offense. We run anywhere from 120-150 people through the permit class each week, and I'd say on average roughly 10-15% of those will use a Bersa/Firestorm of some type. We also sell on average thirty Bersa's each week across all models (though majority of which are .380's) and give out free range passes with each one. Not to mention we also have two in our rental fleet that have untold amounts of rounds through them. Needless to say, we see alot of that particular firearm used on the range and a very regular basis. I'd say in the last year I've also seen about... ohh... maybe two dozen Bersa's that had an issue, which Bersa takes care of in a timely manner. In an entire year. That's pretty damn good imo - we see WAY more problems with Kimbers, Taurus's, Phillipino 1911's, Sigmas, Diamondbacks, Kel-Tecs, Kahr's, and Walthers. Do you also ban those apparently unreliable firearms? Hell, I've seen Glocks, Sigs, M&P's, XD/XDM's, and even revolvers of all brands fail on multiple occations. What about those? If your class is so time constrained that a failure is going to set it back that much, maybe consider adding a time buffer in-between classes to take stuff like that into consideration? (I'm assuming you have classes back to back). I'm just pondering at this point, and really I dont mean any offense, just befuddled as why when there are much worse guns out there to blackball. I mean, if it was a Jennings, sure I'd understand but...

[Lumber_Jack]

I've read all of this thread and although Rangemasters may be a great training facility I have to agree that banning bersa for HCP test is absurd. Seems Metalhead has summed it up nicely, and since he runs a gun shop, I would have to differ to his expertise. I like to be, as DaveTn said "a gun snob" from time to time, but to tell others what they can own and shoot, thats just too much.

[Sams Dad]

Just to elaborate on my intentions for my original post, I was not trying to undermine Rangemasters as a business. In fact living some distance away I researched the area via internet and she went there based on my initial suggestion. She really liked the fact there were womens only classes and female instructors as well. With that said I think it was the one individual that gave her a bad impression. It was not the Bersa ban alone, it was the persons attitude. My original intention was to shed light on why someone would ban a particular brand of gun that gets such rave reviews. They are all over the net and performed by very professional and qualified folks. I respect Mr. Given's explanation for his decision although I and many others do not agree. Rangemaster is a privately owned business and I respect their right to make any decision they want concerning how they run it. That is why we are all here, we are Freedom Loving Americans.

In fact I did buy this Bersa from the great folks in Greenbriar and it was my second indentical purchase in a year there. If I am not mistaken the gentleman at the counter was ex-THP and a super guy. He was full of information and treated us with the utmost respect. If I recall correctly, ( I may be mistaken) he in fact commented on cc'ing the same weapon on occasion. I had actually stopped in two other places in my county that morning and guess what, both owners were carrying OWB Bersas.

To each his own, I have put 1000 rounds through the 9mm that I carry every day without a single glitch and when I wear it out I'll probably drive back up to Greenbriar and buy another one just like it.

[mikegideon]

IMO, thats crap - no offense. We run anywhere from 120-150 people through the permit class each week, and I'd say on average roughly 10-15% of those will use a Bersa/Firestorm of some type. We also sell on average thirty Bersa's each week across all models (though majority of which are .380's) and give out free range passes with each one. Not to mention we also have two in our rental fleet that have untold amounts of rounds through them. Needless to say, we see alot of that particular firearm used on the range and a very regular basis. I'd say in the last year I've also seen about... ohh... maybe two dozen Bersa's that had an issue, which Bersa takes care of in a timely manner. In an entire year. That's pretty damn good imo - we see WAY more problems with Kimbers, Taurus's, Phillipino 1911's, Sigmas, Diamondbacks, Kel-Tecs, Kahr's, and Walthers. Do you also ban those apparently unreliable firearms? Hell, I've seen Glocks, Sigs, M&P's, XD/XDM's, and even revolvers of all brands fail on multiple occations. What about those? If your class is so time constrained that a failure is going to set it back that much, maybe consider adding a time buffer in-between classes to take stuff like that into consideration? (I'm assuming you have classes back to back). I'm just pondering at this point, and really I dont mean any offense, just befuddled as why when there are much worse guns out there to blackball. I mean, if it was a Jennings, sure I'd understand but...

M&P's never break. Must have been a Chinese copy

[Will Carry]

I would take my business elsewhere if I were treated with disrespect. I respect other people and I demand the same respect.

Bersa makes a good, affordable handgun. I am not a Shooting Range Comando, or self proclaimed "expert" but I do know handguns. I cannot understand how these guys at Rangemaster got such an attitude. I can only assume they got it from the owner.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Will Carry

[shortround]

I can see banning certain models, or at least requiring a backup, for a class that involves 1000 rounds or something. But for an HCP class? If you really think it is going to be that much trouble, then you would be doing the student a service by letting them shoot it in class so they could see how unreliable it is. Once the Bersa starts messing up, you can hand them the loaner so they can compare.

I would have a hard time taking any kind of advice on firearms from a place where the owner/employees are so proud of their gun-snobbery. And the 'It might mess up our schedule' argument is just pathetic. My 2-year-old makes up better excuses than that.

[I_Like_Pie]

Do they sell Bersa guns? It would be really ironic if they did.

[Steelharp]

Tact and salesmanship are two things that gun shop employees need to have or be taught.

You would be inclined to understand... somewhat... if you heard some of these vendors gripe about the guys that just come in to hang out just to get away from the wife, chores, etc., with no intention of buying anything. That takes time away from the potential buying customer that walks in; and sometimes that "shop regular" gets offended that his buddy and baby sitter had to walk off and leave him to take care of business. Then, he gets home to the 'net and his keyboard... and things happen.

[True Grit]

I guess I ave a slightly different take on this.

Most jams seem to be ammo or magazine related.

As for MEM range;

Tell her to call the range and ask to speak to the manager/owner.

Tell them what happened and ask if that is the ranges policy or just one of the employees running off customers.

IF that is their policy then another memphis location or one of the courses of instruction here in Nashville area is where she needs to be.

+!

Or just get a revolver for the HCP and keep the Bersa. Every person needs a BUG.

[TGO David]

Or just get a revolver for the HCP

Buford, is that you?

[Curiousgb]

Range USA. No issues, the staff is excellent. They have womens only classes as well.

[Guest RevScottie]

What are the requirements for teaching the TN HCP class? I would think that you would have to be seen as being impartial since you are in effect a representative of the state while administering the class.

[Guest db99wj]

In a piss'n match, no one wins but everybody gets wet.

Whether Rangemaster is wrong or right, the situation remains that a potential customer was made unhappy.

Not sure of the answer, maybe a policy that states that if the gun that you are using to potentially protect you life with malfunctions twice, then you are required to get one of the loaners for the remaining of the class, then afterwards teach the student on why having a dependent gun I so important. I'm not saying you haven't had/seen issues with Bersa's or any other manufacturer but you haven't had experience with their gun. You might not only get the class but you could potentially gain a gun sale.

[Guest JTB]

Bersa's are excellent pistols. Advise her to take her business elsewhere and screw rangemaster.

I hear good things about Range USA out off Whitten Rd.

X2, hit Range USA. I took my class there and have shot there many times. Very nice people.

[East_TN_Patriot]

I do find it interesting the posts here that basically say "Bersa is a POS. I don't care what people say about how good they are, they are POS and you are stupid for trusting your life with them." Talk about blind gun snobbery and narrow-minded ignorance! Here is a list of guns I got rid of due to mechanical problems (and many of these were intended to be off-duty/back-up guns):

1) Kahr PM9: The captured spring/guide rod assembly broke while sitting in my holster. It rendered the gun useless with the rod sticking out of the front of the slide.

2) Colt Detective Special: It was a brand new stainless version that was released back in the late 1990s by Colt. There were so many problems with that gun, the dealer/gunsmith I bought it from simply sent it back to Colt with a very nasty letter.

3) Colt Mustang .380: Thing had a constant FTE problem.

As I have related in another thread here, our department bought all new Sig P229 handguns, issued them out, and within a year had to return several to the factory for repair/replacement due to function problems.

I've had and shot some cheap-o guns that were total junk. One in particular was an FEG copy of the PPK: Gun broke on the first round fired from the NIB pistol using standard pressure ammo. That single round bent or broke multiple internal parts, locked the slide open, and removal of the magazine was not possible without tools and lots of effort.

I've owned several guns in my life that commonly get lumped into the POS pile by gun snobs. I had no problems with any of them. I had a couple of Kel Tec pistols, a Taurus revolver, and a Taurus PT1911.

Depending on the situation, I now carry a Seecamp LWS-32, a Smith & Wesson 642, a Glock 22 (which I recently had a FTE with), or a Bersa 380CC (I have shot it many times with no malfunctions at all). Bersa is as solid and well-made as any other gun I have owned and I would trust my life, or the life of anyone in my family with it. I've shot guns costing 4 - 5 times as much as a Bersa (a buddy's Kimber always comes to mind) that there's no way in hell I'd trust anyone's life with it. To each his own, but to simply ignore the reality that a Bersa is not a total piece of junk is just dumb. IMHO of course.

My original statement stands, even after reading the shop's response. I think the rule is moronic and if it were me, I'd definitely take my cash elsewhere.

Edited January 31, 2011 by East_TN_Patriot

[TGO David]

Guys, Tom Givens reputation as a respected member of the training community is well established. While I own a Bersa myself and have put untold hundreds of rounds through it over the past 18 years or so without incident, I'm sure that his shop's restrictions against using them in HCP classes stem from experiences they have had and a desire to keep the classes moving quickly and everyone out the door safely and in good time.

RangeMaster is not the first organization to restrict what make/model weapon can be used in a class that they are conducting. While I do not necessarily agree with their assessment of the Bersa based on my own experiences, I do respect their prerogative to do what they feel is best for their class and their students. Especially given that they are willing to provide a handgun and ammo to a student in the event that they walk in with one of the handguns that they'd prefer not be used.

I see both sides of this issue. The beauty of the free market is that a customer can either elect to abide by RangeMaster's restrictions, or go somewhere else. Clearly Tom doesn't have a problem with the latter being chosen and likewise respects your prerogative to do so.

Kind of a non-issue really.

[mav]

Especially given that they are willing to provide a handgun and ammo to a student in the event that they walk in with one of the handguns that they'd prefer not be used.

I see both sides of this issue. Kind of a non-issue really.

Those were exactly my sentiments in an earlier post. One thing you didn't mention was they were willing to provide an alternative gun and ammo at no charge.

[Louisb]

RevScottie

hen teaching the HCP class one does not in any way represent the State, they are an instructor there to teach a basic curricula fulfilling the State's requirements for a citizen to be issued a HCP.