Sniper Style Precision Rifle

[HanSolo]

I am wanting to get a sniper style percision rifle and setup and was wanting to reach out to the wisdom on here for some advice. I am wanting a setup that can shoot long distance, preferably better than 500 yards.

I had originally thought about getting a 308 ar style, but from what I have been told a bolt action is better. Then comes the caliber question. I would lovet o get a barrett 50 cal, but so not have a spare 6 grand laying around. From what I have been told the caliber to go with is .300 or 7mm. I have found a weatherby vanguard on sale in 7mm Mag with a 24 inch barrel for 360 NIB, which seems like a pretty good deal. So the questions I have around that are is that the rifle I want for what I am trying to achieve or it is not that good of a rifle and should I go with a Rem 700 and is that a good deal or do you think I could find a better deal at the gun show next week in Williamson County?

The last question I have is around a scope. I know that I need to spend a good bit of money on a very good scope, so I was wondering if anyone here had any recommendations around that.

Thanks for reading my overly long post (if you have made it this far) and thanks in advance for any words of wisdom that are passed along.

[The Rabbi]

Boy does this sound familiar.

First off, do you have someplace where you can actually shoot "better than 500 yards"? In this area that is all but impossible. So it doesnt make sense to me to spend the money on something that you can't do.

Second, the simple fact is that most people aren't that good, most people cannot outshoot their guns. Everyone is looking for that "one gun" that will turn them into Joe Sniper/Joe Pistolier/Joe Miculek. It doesn't work that way. An average shooter is pretty much going to be an average shooter with any gun he buys. A first rate shooter will be pretty much a first rate shooter no matter the gun.

Third, conventional wisdom is to spend at least as much on the scope as the gun. Conventional wisdom is wrong. Yes, for someone who is an expert shooter hitting out to 700 meters under all conditions, including low light etc, it makes sense to get the best. For someone heading out to a range during sunny daylight hours the average $100 scope is perfectly acceptable.

Finally, how much are you going to shoot this? I would opt for .308 in no small part because there are tons of factory loadings, including match grade ammo, readily available. If you are really going to make a project out of it, then whatever caliber strikes your fancy would work fine. But be prepared to spend lots of time with reloading.

[shaftbass]

Here's an idea:

[Guest TN.Frank]

+1 on the Savage. They're making about as good a bolt gun as anyone else and at a fraction of the price. Also, I second the 308 Win, it'll do the job out to 800m(880 yrds.) if you do your part. Also, muzzle blast, flash and recoil will be a lot less making it easier to shoot well.

[HanSolo]

1. I actually do have land outside of Clarksville that I hunt where I can see 800+ yards and would like to achieve tha skill of being able to shoot that far.

2. I know the gun does not make the shot, but the shooter using the gun. I am looking for a good gun that is capable of achieving my goal and then practice and practice with it. I am sure as hell not going to be Joe Sniper.

3. I am not one for "conventional" wisdom, but more realistic. I am really only looking for a scope achieve my goal.

4. I am planning on shooting it a good bit to be able to be decently accurate at a distance. What is the effective range of the 308. How much more does a 300 or 7mm mag have over it.

[HanSolo]

Thanks ReefBlue for the article. I guess I also come back to my buying question as to where is a gun show usually the best place to pick these pieces up and gun.

What would really be difference between say the Remington 700 vs. Weatherby Vanguard vs. this very nice Savage 110?

[Im Neero]

I cannot vouch for the difference between the Savage and Weatherby, but the Remington 700 is a fantastic rifle. I would go for something in .308, it is a fine caliber that can yield accuracy at the ranges you are talking about. In my opinion the .300 magnum and 7mm magnum really don't show a significant advantage until you start getting into 1000 yard competitions, which I don't know anyone that actually does. There is also absolutely nothing wrong with 30-06, plenty of snipers in vietnam did well with deer rifles in 30-06 out to ranges farther than any of us are likely to encounter in our state.

[The Rabbi]

I chewed this one over with my resident gun guru.

We agreed that 800 yards is a very long distance, beyond point blank range.

He points out that the average decent off the shelf deer rifle will shoot consistently at 200 yards, for about $500. Increase that by 250% and you'll be increasing cost appropriately. Then there's a scope capable of seeing a man-siezed target at 800 yards. Further, given a rifle with inherent .5MOA capability you are talking about pretty large groups down range. And that's the rifle in a vice taking out all the human element.

So be prepared to spend on the order of $3500 before chambering the first round.

[Marswolf]

I really like the Remington 700 VS or PSS in 308. They are the same rifle except for a different contour fully aluminum-bedded from grip to tip H.S. Precision stock.

http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/Remington700VS.asp has more.

I went with the VS and added a Jewel trigger (about $240)

But for the performance you are looking for, you will also have to hand load your rounds. I find that the 700s require loading the OAL to greater than specification for the round, but it really needs to be matched for your individual rifle.

If you decide to go that route, I'll be glad to help walk you through the steps to get good accuracy from the rifle.

A BSA 8-32x44 Platinum Target Riflescope ($119.95 at http://www.swfa.com/showproduct.aspx?sku=PT832X44MD) does fine at 600 yards. I can't tell you beyond that.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Marswolf

[HanSolo]

Thank you very much marswolf and I might very well take you up on that and I have been looking really hard at the rem 700s.

I have seen "claims" on the ar15 site of people saying that a dpms 308 is effective at 800 yards + and I have seen reviews where people are saying that it is just as accurate at long distances as bolt action rifles. Is that a bunch of BS (black smoke) or is their actually validity to that claim?

[towerclimber37]

From what I have been told the caliber to go with is .300 or 7mm.

Don't pay attention to Rabbi, he's a crabby, crusty old fart that loves to argue.

If I were you, I'd look at something in .308 since it will do just what you're looking for and for less money!

My wife CAN shoot/out shoot the limits of her rifle..so don't think that it can't be done. It does however require lots of practice and not a little skill.

for a beginner, a bolt action rifle is best..for overall accuracy it's better also.

for shots out to 500 yards, you can go with a semi-auto and do just fine.

1000 yard shots CAN be done with a semi auto..I know quite a few folks that shoot with a Springfield M1a national match grade rifle in .308 and end up in Camp Perry on a yearly basis.

I like Reef's ad, it looks like a decent rifle to start out with.

I will tell you now that if you start shooting long range you WILL progress to different rifles as time goes on.

that's just how it goes. Its like buying your first hand gun.

Hope this helps you in some small way!

Edited February 8, 2008 by towerclimber37

[The Rabbi]

O.K.

I'm just a crabby old fart (turning older on Sunday btw) so what do I know? Just do the math on a 1MOA rifle and see how that translates at 800 yards. Keep in mind that at that distance everything becomes a factor: temperature, humidity, wind, barrel, etc etc.

If someone wants to shoot 800 meters and is willing to put the time and money into it, let him knock himself out.

For entertainment, here's Chuck Hawks on hunting rifles.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/practical_accuracy.htm

And Towerclimber, if your wife can shoot her rifle better than the same gun cranked into a vise, I wanna see it.

[Im Neero]

I have access to a Springfield M1a National Match that shoots well under MOA off of a bipod, but it's a semi auto so I didn't mention it. I don't see any reason that you have to spend $3000 for a rifle that can shoot MOA, but it'll cost more than $300 for sure.

[Im Neero]

1 moa at 800 yds is an 8 inch group. That's a pretty damn tight group. I have access to an stock Remington 700 in 7mm Remington Magnum that can shoot groups near .5 MOA, and didn't cost over $3000.

[towerclimber37]

O.K.

I'm just a crabby old fart (turning older on Sunday btw) so what do I know? Just do the math on a 1MOA rifle and see how that translates at 800 yards. Keep in mind that at that distance everything becomes a factor: temperature, humidity, wind, barrel, etc etc.

If someone wants to shoot 800 meters and is willing to put the time and money into it, let him knock himself out.

For entertainment, here's Chuck Hawks on hunting rifles.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/practical_accuracy.htm

And Towerclimber, if your wife can shoot her rifle better than the same gun cranked into a vise, I wanna see it.

How about you come up for a couple of days then, when I'm home and we have time to do some serious shooting!

[HanSolo]

LOL, I was not expecting to start the debate early. That is supposed to be next week, that is if Hillary can get over being accused of pimping her daughter out.

If I can get to where I am shooting an 8" group at 800 yards, I will be really happy. That is good enough to take down a deer at 600-800 yards away.

[Guest TN.Frank]

That's a theoritical 8" group at 800 yrds. The further you shoot the more wind comes into play and the more range estimation can affect your shot. On a totally calm day with perfect range estimation you and perfect handloads taylored for the rifle you could get that 8" group but more realistic would probably be more like 12" to 16" groups at 800 yrds.

[R1100R]

The M110 SASS is what is being issued to US Army now. It is a AR based .308. They

have also purchased some DPMS SASS's in the .308. I own a DMPS .308 and it shoots great. I have only worked out to 400 meters due to no place with greater distance.

It shoot just as well as my heavy barreled 700 with Unertl scope. It's in .338 Laupa.

A lot of snipers/DM in the world swear by the .338 Laupa.

[dkd83]

It has now been ~11 years since I did my sniper work in the 82nd so I am not 'up' on the newer military sniper gear, but I would take the M24 (Rem 700 .308) for any precision shooting out to 800m.

As others have mentioned, at any distance beyond ~300m wind and weather will prove more important for making one's shots. Ideally one would spend a great deal of range time working on both range estimation and reading wind. These skills are much more difficult to master hence the more experienced sniper normally served as spotter in my platoon.

As far as accouterments, I would NOT go with greater than a 10x scope as the higher power makes 100m shots more difficult. I would want a mil-dot reticle on the scope (not sure how easily these are acquired in the civilian world) and a sturdy bipod. A free floating heavy barrel would be the final touch.

Whatever you finally get, good shooting and practice, practice, practice.

[deerslayer]

So be prepared to spend on the order of $3500 before chambering the first round.

I disagree. Here is what I did with my $500 Winchester Model 70 and a $300 Redfield scope at 500 yards. Seven shots--seven hits. Keep in mind that I am a simple, untrained city slicker with a deer rifle. These pics are of a life-size, cardboard Snoop Dog standup display. I hunted with a 200 yard zero, and calculated my bullet drop to be ~44" at that range. I used "Kentucky" windage and elevation--if I had dialed in the range on my scope, my results probably would have been better, but I did not want to risk screwing up my zero during hunting season. Now this bit of shooting would certainly not impress Carlos Hathcock, but I wasn't embarrassed. Snoop would have been leaking badly. With a little practice and a little knowledge/training on judging wind, I have no doubt that I could quickly improve. I don't think it would take $3500 to play around at 800 yards.

[The Rabbi]

Five hundred yards is not eight hundred yards. I have a Savage 10LE bolt in .308 that will work great out to about that distance. Add a $200 scope and a bipod, some off the shelf quality ammo and a person would have a good challenging task for himself.

But the farther one goes the more difficult (and expensive) it becomes, not linearly but geometrically. So a 1200 yard shot will require about double the equipment cost of an 800 yard shot.

And for someone to shoot an 8" group at 800 yards means he is shooting about the theoretical limit of his rifle. That is to say, he would do no better if he had the gun in a vise and took out all human error. I don't know anyone that good.

[Im Neero]

He's not looking to buy a shooter, he's looking to buy a rifle. If we're factoring in the shooter to the equation then your $3500 rifle might not shoot 80 inch groups at 800 yards.

[Guest gcrookston]

In my experience, one cannot beat the out-of-the-box accuarcy of a Savage. I own 2. One in .308 and another in 5.56. both are heavy barrel VSS something or other. Until I moved to Tennesse this past year, I was regularly taking out my .308 bolt Savage and my M1a to 1,000 yard ranges (haven't found one here yet), and seeing 1 moa or less from both.

Okay, my plug for Savage done, let's get practical:

But in response to your original question, optics are make or break. You can put a $1,000 scope on a $500.00 rifle and have a great shooter, but you cannot put a $300 scope on $1,000 rifle and expect it to perform. Optics really are the key to distance shooting. Your rifle will only be as good as the glass mounted on it.

P.S. My .308 Savage is sporting a Premiere Reticle prepared 6.5x20 Leupold (cost of rifle: $500.00, cost of scope $1,100), and my Savage 5.56 is sporting is sporting a 6.5x24 Burris (cost of rifle $450.00, cost of scope $900.00). I refuse to discuss the $$$$$$ thrown at my M1a, but let's just say, it sports at Leupold Mk4 16x and shoots half Moa for the price of a used compact car

Edited February 10, 2008 by gcrookston

[Marswolf]

I want to quote something from that link I posted above about the Remington 700 VS, but it applies to about any quality rifle and caliber.

For a factory rifle, in the $500 range, accuracy is very acceptable. The rifle tested was a .22-250 but the firearm is available in .308 and .223 also. While the .22-250 is not considered a sniper round, unless of course you are a varmint buster, the inherent accuracy of the Remington action lends itself to a wonderfully-shootable rifle with no tuning, right from the box. You might not want to compete at benchrest with it but for a police agency sharpshooter, varmint hunter, or bench plinker, the groups this weapon turns out are very exciting. Using factory, non-match grade ammunition for the break-in period, I was able to print an average of .850 MOA. Once the bore was properly broken in, the groups shrunk marginally to around .750 MOA. This is very good for the intended purpose as most Big Dollar Sniper rifles are only guaranteed to group under one inch. Once I started developing handloads, the rifle easily went into the .400 MOA range. My best-of-all-time, 5-shot, 100-yard group has been .218!!! If the .308 can hold even triple that, it will make an ideal weapon for any local police department on a strict budget.

A good accuracy-toy rifle should shoot under 1 MOA out of the box. I know the 700 VS and PSS will easily do that, and Savage, from my experience with them, will probably do that too.

I found the key to accuracy to be developing the load. That means the right powder, the correct amount of that powder, the right bullet, brass and primer and the correct seating depth and crimp. For the 700, that seating depth is so long that the rounds will not fit into the magazine. It becomes a one round at a time loaded rifle. That also means you need better brass. I use IMI.

The gun and scope are only the first step. But you don't have to spend thousands, even one thousand, to get an accurate rifle and scope.

The final step is in conditioning the shooter to make the shot. He has to be able to read crosswind, and things like breath control, and even heart control are the touches that make a good long-range shooter and rifle combination.

I'm not as good as I used to be and never had sniper training but I was getting 0.5 MOA groups from my 700VS. I'm sure that in the hands of a real shooter it would be significantly better.

[Guest Mugster]

In my experience, one cannot beat the out-of-the-box accuarcy of a Savage. I own 2. One in .308 and another in 5.56. both are heavy barrel VSS something or other. Until I moved to Tennesse this past year, I was regularly taking out my .308 bolt Savage and my M1a to 1,000 yard ranges (haven't found one here yet), and seeing 1 moa or less from both.

Okay, my plug for Savage done, let's get practical:

But in response to your original question, optics are make or break. You can put a $1,000 scope on a $500.00 rifle and have a great shooter, but you cannot put a $300 scope on $1,000 rifle and expect it to perform. Optics really are the key to distance shooting. Your rifle will only be as good as the glass mounted on it.

P.S. My .308 Savage is sporting a Premiere Reticle prepared 6.5x20 Leupold (cost of rifle: $500.00, cost of scope $1,100), and my Savage 5.56 is sporting is sporting a 6.5x24 Burris (cost of rifle $450.00, cost of scope $900.00). I refuse to discuss the $$$$$$ thrown at my M1a, but let's just say, it sports at Leupold Mk4 16x and shoots half Moa for the price of a used compact car

I tend to agree with everything here except the optics cost. I went with a remington sendero in 7mm a few years ago and have been happy, but the savage is a lot of rifle for the money.

I believe you could go with a leopold in a 4x12 and do pretty well out to 800 yards. I bet you could get one down in the $400-$500 range. I don't think you need more than 12x out to 700-800, although i've not an expert at this. Course, i guess it depends on what you want to mount on the rifle.