Organizing a "TN Open Carry Day"

[GhstFace38]

Well said.

Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

[DRM]

Note that I didn't call it just "protest" nor am I sure why that word bothers you.

First - thanks for answering.

It bothers me because it carries a negative tone. Considering the entire purpose of a project like this is to project a positive image - carefully shaping and controlling the language is a pretty normal part of the process

If we all wear ribbons to promote cancer awareness, it's an awareness campaign, not a protest. Same concept.

Also, I wonder why you are a member of the NRA (according to your profile) if you think they are part of the problem???

Was part of the carry class I took last year. I've been a member on and off as I get more or less disenfranchised with (and this goes beyond just this discussion) players in the game are self serving, and it doesn't do them any good to eliminate the game. But that's the specific reason, anyway

As to your questions...

1. Do you think OC should be a legal?

Yes.

2. Would you fight to retain OC rights should the government try to take them away?

I can't answer that with a simple yes or no; best I can say is "probably".

Final comments...

I would submit that open carry already is "legal" in Tennessee so whether it "should be" seems like an unnecessary question. That said, I also believe that there is a need to make the law regarding "carrying", both open and concealed, skewed more in favor of the armed citizen than it now is.

I asked because it seems so far that many of the people who are against such an OC event are ambivalent at best about the practice, and some seem to openly show disdain for it. And it's disappointing to me to see people willing only to defend the rights they like or agree with, and so easily throw the others under the bus, especially if they perceive a potential threat to one of their preferred rights. That might not be your position, but I think there are examples of it here in this thread.

[DRM]

So you want to wear a button? Problem solved

Gun Owner Buttons and Gun Owner Pins

Winder if they will pay me royalties to add my button in there? Cha-ching!!!

[strickj]

POST 97:

Then...

POST 104:

Is this indicative of the value or your declarations or did you just forget what you rote in your prior post???

Whichever is the case, it seems likely that you aren't about to let either facts or even direct quotes of your prior posts get in your way.

Yes, I decided to add one more post the the conversation in an effort to get the question I've asked you many times answered.

Just in case you've missed the question, I'll increase the font size and color:

Have there been any negative laws passed in TN since we became a shall issue state?

[RobertNashville]

Yes, I decided to add one more post the the conversation in an effort to get the question I've asked you many times answered.

Just in case you've missed the question, I'll increase the font size and color:

Have there been any negative laws passed in TN since we became a shall issue state?

It would be easier to answer your question if you didn’t change the question after I answer the original one.

Your original question came in response to my Post No. 74 where I said…

… I think this issue/thread has more to do with public perception than legislative bills. In any case, why should people who carry organize a day to openly carry and likely, give more fodder to those who want to introduce more bills? Those who want to restrict gun rights only have to win now and then; those of us who don't want to see what we've gained become loss have to win every time...more bills give the anti-gun crowd more chances to get what they want.

Your question to me in reply to that statement in Post No. 76 was…

...When has that ever happened (emphasis mine)? Year after year, do we not gain ground?

I answered that question in Post No. 79…

...Given your age (as stated in your profile) and that we have been making ground in Tennessee for your entire adult life, I guess I can understand why you might think it’s always been that way…but it hasn’t always been that way. More importantly, pushing the issue of open carry on the heels of a mass shooting three weeks ago and the antics of Leonard E. just doesn't sound like a good idea to me and could even move us in a direction we don't want to go (losing instead of gaining ground).

At which point you changed the question slightly (in Post No. 85) to…

......Well then, older wise one. Answer the question that I asked. When have HCP laws not gained ground?

In Post No. 89 I tried one more time to answer you…

...Do you know so little of our history that you don't understand that there was a time in this country when no one would have thought that anyone needed any bureaucrat's permission to be armed...that it then became a felony almost everywhere in this country just to be armed?

We went backwards....far backwards with regards to gun rights; the insinuation that we've "always gained ground" is obtuse at best and ignores all but the most recent history of gun rights.

It was then that you changed the question substantially by limiting it, in Post No. 97, to only the most recent history

...The question wasn't posed for decades past. Since TN became an issue state, have we gun owners not continually gained ground?

and Post No. 104

Anything that happened before TN started issuing HCPs is irrelevant to the discussion of carrying guns with a HCP. I'll ask again, have there been any negative laws passed in TN since it became an issue state?

I answered your original question...maybe you didn't ask what you really wanted to ask or maybe you changed the question so that you could elicit the answer you actually wanted in the first place. Whatever the reason, you seem overly preoccupied with only the most recent history of gun rights...I think that is an unnecessarily limited view; perhaps even a reckless one.

We have made significant ground starting in 1986. However, if you think past success is ANY guarantee of continued success you are, at best, being extremely naive.

[Fallguy]

It's like a horrible traffic accident....I can't help but to keep watching.....

[RobertNashville]

It's like a horrible traffic accident....I can't help but to keep watching.....

^^^ might be the best post in this entire thread.

[strickj]

Yes, Robert, I changed the question. I thought my original question was pretty straight forward and simple. It was not, as you wanted to answer in pre-permit times.

Like I said in one of my previous posts, at one time women were not allowed to vote, too. At one time, there were two of everything in the south that were service related. One for whites, one for blacks. One "whites' only" bathroom. One "blacks' only" bathroom. Is that relevant to people using the bathroom today?

If a black man pees on the floor today, will that put us back to the times of having two sets of bathrooms?

The point of the question I posed to you is that no matter how much you want to believe that OC will send us back, it just isn't going to happen.

There is no evidence to support that claim.

We have made significant ground starting in 1986. However, if you think past success is ANY guarantee of continued success you are, at best, being extremely naive.

Umm... ok. So, success is not equal to success, apparently.

[RobertNashville]

Yes, Robert, I changed the question. I thought my original question was pretty straight forward and simple. It was not...

Since you wanted to limit it to pre-permit times, perhaps, if you had been more precise with your original question, you would have gotten the answer you actually wanted rather than the answer that was a correct answer to the question asked.

The point of the question I posed to you is that no matter how much you want to believe that OC will send us back, it just isn't going to happen. There is no evidence to support that claim.

I've never said that OC would send us anywhere nor do you have any basis upon which to decide what I "believe". Frankly, it would seem that you've either not read what I have said or you've chosen to ignore it.

While you seem to want to believe otherwise, the issue was not and is not about whether open carry is or isn't a good idea. The purpose of the thread (and if I'm wrong I'm sure the OP will clarify) was to garner opinions about TGO having some sort of organized "open carry day" or some sort of public "statement".

Some of us, and I'm one of them, think such an organized day/statement is not a good idea. Apparently, however, some folks find it impossible to understand that just because a person thinks such an "organized" event/statement is not a good idea; it does not mean that those people are automatically opposed to open carry.

Umm... ok. So, success is not equal to success, apparently.

Success is success...past success is not and never will be a guarantee of future success. If you really don't understand that then perhaps someone else can explain it to you.

Edited January 31, 2011 by RobertNashville

[strickj]

Since you wanted to limit it to pre-permit times, you should have said so in the first place...perhaps, if you had been more precise with your original question, you would have gotten the answer you actually wanted rather than the answer that was a correct answer to the question asked.

Yes. You are right. I should have had the foresight to know that you would have included pre-permit carry to a permit related carry question.

I've never said that OC would send us anywhere.

You said this earlier in the thread:

those of us who don't want to see what we've gained become loss have to win every time...more bills give the anti-gun crowd more chances to get what they want.

.

While you seem to want to believe otherwise, the issue was not and is not about whether open carry is or isn't a good idea. The purpose of the thread (and if I'm wrong I'm sure the OP will clarify) was to garner opinions about TGO having some sort of organized "open carry day" or some sort of public "statement".

Some of us, and I'm one of them, think such an organized day/statement is not a good idea. Apparently, however, some folks find it impossible to understand that just because a person thinks such an "organized" event/statement is not a good idea; it does not mean that those people are automatically opposed to open carry

.

Again, a couple of your posts from earlier in the thread:

I'm sure this guy would have been more than willing to go about his business had it not been an open carry situation. As it is, he is likely more convinced than ever that armed, law-abiding citizens are just a brief angry moment away from becoming a murderer.

I think this issue/thread has more to do with public perception than legislative bills. In any case, why should people who carry organize a day to openly carry and likely, give more fodder to those who want to introduce more bills? Those who want to restrict gun rights only have to win now and then; those of us who don't want to see what we've gained become loss have to win every time...more bills give the anti-gun crowd more chances to get what they want.

You sound pretty opposed to OC from that and other statements.

Success is success...past success is not and never will be a guarantee of future success. If you really don't understand that then perhaps someone else can explain it to you.

I don't need to wait and see what will happen if I push a ball down a hill. Experience will tell me that the ball roll down the hill.

Of coarse, your response to this will be that I'm naive because balls didn't didn't roll down hill before I started shaving. To which I will say, that's irrelevant because you only has tin cans and rocks to throw down a hill back in your day.

Edited January 31, 2011 by strickj

[Raoul]

[mikegideon]

I just wanna know if there's going to be a beer summit after this is over. I'm in.

[RobertNashville]

Yes. You are right.

You REALLY should have just stopped there.

I should have had the foresight to know that you would have included pre-permit carry to a permit related carry question.

And I guess I should have answered the question you actually intended to ask rather than the one you did ask.

...You sound pretty opposed to OC.

I'm opposed to the idea of a "TGO organized open carry day" or any similar event that might tend to rub the noses of the anti-ground crown into our "rights"; most especially so given the recent happenings in Arizona and also when we already have the option to openly carry in Tennessee. If we didn't have that option at all we would likely be having a different conversation.

It's unfortunate that you can't seem to see the difference between being opposed to an organized event about OC and being opposed to OC in general. There is a very distinct difference and the two positions are not mutually exclusive...I've never said you or anyone else shouldn't be able to open carry; if you think I have then you are just wrong.

I don't need to wait and see what will happen if I push a ball down a hill. Experience will tell me that the ball roll down the hill.

Unfortunately, we aren't talking about the laws of physical motion; we are talking about issues that are subject to the whims of public opinion and legislative action.

[strickj]

I'm opposed to the idea of a "TGO organized open carry day" or any similar event that might tend to rub the noses of the anti-ground crown into our "rights"; most especially so given the recent happenings in Arizona and also when we already have the option to openly carry in Tennessee. If we didn't have that option at all we would likely be having a different conversation.

It's unfortunate that you can't seem to see the difference between being opposed to an organized event about OC and being opposed to OC in general. There is a very distinct difference and the two positions are not mutually exclusive...I've never said you or anyone else shouldn't be able to open carry; if you think I have then you are just wrong.

Seems you can't see the difference either...

I'm sure this guy would have been more than willing to go about his business had it not been an open carry situation. As it is, he is likely more convinced than ever that armed, law-abiding citizens are just a brief angry moment away from becoming a murderer.

Your story there had nothing to do with an "OC event". It had to do with some guy OCing.

Flip-flop much?

Unfortunately, we aren't talking about the laws of physical motion; we are talking about issues that are subject to the whims of public opinion and legislative action.

We are talking about the fact that we have never lost ground since TN became an issue state (happy that I included it this time?) with no indication of it ever happening. Well, other then a few folks fearing something that may or may not happen.

Bottom line here, there will always be something circulating in the news that will make you, and others, say "now is not the right time to OC [or insert other activity]". Whether it's the tragedy in AZ, a school shooting, or a controversial political issue. If we wait for the "right time" to do something that may offend an anti-gun fool, then we will be patiently waiting for a very long time.

Personally, I couldn't give a rats ass if I piss off one of these anti-gun types. That's because they're going to be pissed off to begin with. Nothing that I do will change that, empower that, or disempower that.

In the meantime, I will continue to educate when and where I can. If that stems from someone at WalMart seeing my gun, then great. That's a new friend to me, and a new friend to the 2nd.

Maybe someone else will be educated during an "OC day" that would have never thought twice about carrying a gun, too.

To me, that's far more likely to happen that some misconceived fear of us loosing our rights overnight by such an 'event'.

Now, to keep from going around in a circle anymore, I'm outy.

(That means don't ask me any more questions that will pull me back in )

Edited February 1, 2011 by strickj

[Luckyforward]

Well said ... thank you, Strick

[RobertNashville]

...Your story there had nothing to do with an "OC event". It had to do with some guy OCing. Flip-flop much?

Quite wrong. It wasn't "some guy" openly carrying; it was an "event" and roughly 30 or so people were openly carrying that evening and the only flip-floping going on is in your mind as you flounder about trying to shore up an very incorrect belief.

For those who might want to know what I actually said in total...

Maybe your "real world" isn't where most of the population lives? I just personally saw, less than two weeks ago, a guy call the police because he saw people openly carrying their firearms (emphasis added. Further, the use of the word "people" should have been a clue that I was not talking about "some guy" or "one guy")...maybe you consider that a positive effect but I don't...I'm sure this guy would have been more than willing to go about his business had it not been an open carry situation. As it is, he is likely more convinced than ever that armed, law-abiding citizens are just a brief angry moment away from becoming a murderer.

Perhaps you should avoid blanket statements that include phrases like "No one. Anywhere. No negative affects have ever arisen" because that's just completely untrue (as blanket statements always...I mean usually are).

It's interesting that, in wanting to prove your incorrect argument that I am against open carry, you would use my description of an incident that you earlier wanted to dismiss because I hadn't provided proof that it happened. It's also interesting that, while the event was not specifically about open carry, it was an event that happens monthly at which probably half or more of those attending do open carry (including myself on occasion and depending on where I'm coming from).

That aside, my describing the incident was to prove incorrect your (still) ridiculous assertion (in Post No. 68) that...

...Out there in the real world, no one cares if you choose to OC or CC. No one. Anywhere. No negative affects have ever arisen (kwik's AK aside) from OC . None.

My story had nothing to do with whether one should or should not open carry; it had everything to do with showing 1) that there can be and have been negative affects from open carry and, therefore, 2) that your blanket statement was WRONG (and still is).

Just to be clear, that the incident occurred on Tuesday evening (the 18th) at the Golden Corral in Hermitage as people were gathering for the monthly TFA meeting at which many attendees, openly carry...if I really had a problem with open carry do you truly think I'd voluntarily hang around a group where many do? Maybe you do.

You seem to have a huge plank in your eye when it comes to open carry - you seem to believe that if anyone doesn't open carry on a regular basis and/or has a problem with a proposed action concerning open carry, that person is automatically hostile to the idea of open carry. I rarely open carry myself for my own reasons however I am not now nor have I ever been opposed to open carry/anybody else carrying openly if that is what they want to do. You can continue to believe otherwise if you wish...you can also continue to believe that it's impossible for us to lose ground when it comes to our gun rights just because, for a very brief period of time, we've been making headway but if you do you'll be wrong on both counts. I suspect, however, that being wrong is something you are accustomed to.

Edited February 1, 2011 by RobertNashville

[Guest adamoxtwo]

Please, don't call it a "protest". Nothing is being protested.

And I happen to disagree that "sizable donations" to the NRA is a better answer. No thanks, they are part of the problem, IMHO.

Simple yes or no questions for you Robert of you don't mind answering them:

1. Do you think OC should be a legal?

2. Would you fight to retain OC rights should the government try to take them away?

What if it was CC by permit in the City Limits and OC in the county? I say that because I'm in Clarksville, and most soldiers coming back should not carry a pistol openly or concealed for that matter, but at least there is some screening for Concealed (no matter how ineffective). IMHO with the rule of where you can carry (establishment wise) you are so limited I think you will start to see more vehicle breakin's and stole pistols within the city limits. and of course I could be completely off tilt here.

[Fallguy]

What if it was CC by permit in the City Limits and OC in the county? I say that because I'm in Clarksville, and most soldiers coming back should not carry a pistol openly or concealed for that matter, but at least there is some screening for Concealed (no matter how ineffective). IMHO with the rule of where you can carry (establishment wise) you are so limited I think you will start to see more vehicle breakin's and stole pistols within the city limits. and of course I could be completely off tilt here.

???????????????????

Most states have preemption laws that would prevent a city from passing ordnance prohibiting Open Carry within the city. At least TN and KY do anyway.

Are you really saying soldiers should not be allowed to carry a handgun?

In TN you must have a permit to OC or CC, Yes, in KY OC is allowed without a permit, but I'm not sure what a background check for a carry permit would catch that enlistment in the military didn't.

Not sure about KY, but it TN the places off-limits by law have declined (39-17-1305 repealed and carry in state/national parks allowed and in most city/county parks) No whether more places have posted because of the changes to 39-17-1359...not sure. However how does a thief know which vehicles might have a weapon in the first place? But if someone is really worried about there handgun being stolen out of their car, perhaps they shouldn't disarm and go in.

[Fallguy]

I just wanna know if there's going to be a beer summit after this is over. I'm in.

+1 (or2)

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

It's like a horrible traffic accident....I can't help but to keep watching.....

Yes and I was a minor participate, uninjured and allowed to leave yet I just keep hanging around to watch the rest.

That "button link" is a good one, I may just order a few from them, but even some of them IMO are too "In your Face" to be effective.

And since the train is already at least partially off track, as far as anything negative happening since we became a "Shall" state let us not forget that our right to carry in restaurants that serve victory also made all the Ghost Buster signs legal postings. At least to me that was one step forward and at least a half step back.

But all is still good as we can still pick and chose where to go but I feel we lost a bit on that deal.

Most folks dont pay attention to these things like we do and some business owners may have only had the "Buster" signs up to appease the sheeple and may not even realize that they are now legally posted, on the other hand some business owners may have the whole time thought that they were legally posted and of course now they are.

Why that had to be part of the bill I have no idea unless that is what it took to get it passed. Regardless of why it is now our law and we must abide by it.

Like I said it isnt a huge deal for most but for some it may have cost them a favorite place to shop or eat and the owners may or may not even be aware.

But the bottom line is still that we are all on the same side (or should be).

We must together find an effective way to influence the general population to agree with us while the entire media machine seems to work against that 24/7. We do occasionally get a good story out of them but I guess the word occasionally really should be rarely.

I think that we should all just do what we think is best to further our cause. I will look over those buttons and maybe buy a few each of the ones I like and think would be effective, that way if someone notices it and asks about it I can give them one with the promise that they wear it and pass on the website to them. Small stuff but still a start.

I'll talk to my store folks about maybe having a small picnic later in the year where everyone could OC. Other than that I have no more ideas.

Removing the vocal cords of the Antis would be rather effective but I dont condone illegal acts and even that would violate their 1-A. They may not mind trying to take away our 2-A but I still have to as a Former Soldier defend their 1-A......it stinks but it is what is.

[enfield]

SO . . . .

What did we decide?

(I gather we decided to have a beer. "What woud you say to a beer, Norm?" "Going down!")

[Erik88]

I've been keeping up with thread for days. Some of the responses surprised me, others, not so much......all I can say is this.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

Are you really saying soldiers should not be allowed to carry a handgun?

Kinda but not in the way you think. Yes I have a problem with a young private coming back from a deployment carrying a pistol. There is no need for that around Clarksville....(IMHO)...you are only inviting terrible things to happen. However, I think that it should be up to the people who know that person best to make that decision. That's not me, you, or the Government (persay). I think that should be up the that Soldier's Commander.

However how does a thief know which vehicles might have a weapon in the first place? But if someone is really worried about there handgun being stolen out of their car, perhaps they shouldn't disarm and go in.

If a thief is there looking they will find their target. It wouldn't be that hard to locate someone keeping their pistol in a vehicle. I look at things for the lowest common denominator. a Fool is a fool and there is nothing you can do to change it. I like the laws the way they are for one reason and one reason only. The people who want to carry and are responsible DO carry. Again this is only m opinion, but I believe if you make it easier then you will see more people with no purpose carrying just because and that is when more issues will arise.

I can be completely wrong and if I am I'll eat my box of STFU, but this is my opinion. that's all

[Guest db99wj]

Kinda but not in the way you think. Yes I have a problem with a young private coming back from a deployment carrying a pistol. There is no need for that around Clarksville....(IMHO)...you are only inviting terrible things to happen. However, I think that it should be up to the people who know that person best to make that decision. That's not me, you, or the Government (persay). I think that should be up the that Soldier's Commander.

However how does a thief know which vehicles might have a weapon in the first place? But if someone is really worried about there handgun being stolen out of their car, perhaps they shouldn't disarm and go in.

If a thief is there looking they will find their target. It wouldn't be that hard to locate someone keeping their pistol in a vehicle. I look at things for the lowest common denominator. a Fool is a fool and there is nothing you can do to change it. I like the laws the way they are for one reason and one reason only. The people who want to carry and are responsible DO carry. Again this is only m opinion, but I believe if you make it easier then you will see more people with no purpose carrying just because and that is when more issues will arise.

I can be completely wrong and if I am I'll eat my box of STFU, but this is my opinion. that's all

Please elaborate on why you think that soldiers shouldn't or don't need to carry around Clarksville. Why would terrible things happen?

[RobertNashville]

Kinda but not in the way you think. Yes I have a problem with a young private coming back from a deployment carrying a pistol. There is no need for that around Clarksville....(IMHO)...you are only inviting terrible things to happen. However, I think that it should be up to the people who know that person best to make that decision. That's not me, you, or the Government (persay). I think that should be up the that Soldier's Commander.

I didn't realize that Clarksville was so crime-free that no one, at least not a "young private" needs to be carrying a pistol...I suppose the LEOs in Clarksville don't carry either, then?

Would it matter if it an "old private"?

If left to the private's CO; what if the CO is an ******* (I know that can't happen but humor me for a moment)?

Thankfully, most of the laws in this country tend to punish people and restrict people's rights based on what they've actually done rather than what someone somewhere might do...even if there is some "young private" out there who might do something rash or uncalled for with their firearm, isn't that the price we pay for liberty for all of us?

So long as anyone is carrying legally (gone through whatever hoops they have to go through to be able to carry a weapon on their person in the state they currently live in), I see no justification for singling out a certain group of people to tell them they can't carry; especially after these men and women have been laying their lives on the line for this country.

I wonder if anyone has done a study of how often law enforcement officers (young, old or in between) have misused their weapons compared to how often "young privates" returning from deployment have misused theirs? I think that would be an interesting study.