Marine Corp New 1911

[USMCJG]

C'mon... do you really think that the model 1911 is really state of the art for a fighting pistol?

Of course not. The state of the art fighting pistol is a rifle. Otherwise, with the exception of magazine capacity(remedied by the 2011), the 1911 is still as good as anything out there and better than most.

[Steelharp]

While I don't carry one by choice, I find it laughable that anyone would think the 1911 isn't a capable fighting pistol. That belongs in a Humor section.

[timcalhoun]

As for competition... unless you're shooting at targets that return fire, I'm not sure I can see that much of a correlation to how a 1911 runs in a game versus how it runs in the hostile environments of modern battlefields where there is no such thing as a time-out because your gun stopped running.

No, you just have to ignore a century of service and the mountains and mountains of evidence that has proven the 1911 to be an awesome and completely reliable fighting weapon that's all....

Furthermore, if you think anyone who is a serious USPSA competitor would compete with a gun that is not 100% reliable you're completely disillusioned.

[G27]

Where has the idea come from that the 1911 is so unreliable? I don't own one, but I've always heard the standard GI issue 1911 was akin to the AK47 - loose tolerance meant it ran and ran and ran.

Are we confusing the modern, tight-tolerance, hand made 1911 with the ones our GI's used for decades?

[timcalhoun]

Respectfully, personal experience shouldn't be the metric by which a service pistol is chosen for an entire branch of the armed forces. I'd rather they use unbiased data resulting from brutal testing. If the M&P fails that, so be it. I've personally witnessed all sorts of fluke **** in my life, but that doesn't mean that those instances were typical.

So, the government appoints 3 guys to compile the data on a bunch of pistols and once they make their suggestion, that suggestion would be based on their personal experience....right?

But of course many flukes could happen during the test too. LOL

Point is, all any of us have are personal experiences to base our decisions upon.

[Jasongar8]

Furthermore, if you think anyone who is a serious USPSA competitor would compete with a gun that is not 100% reliable you're completely disillusioned.

A "serious USPSA competitor" doesn't compete in Afganistan or Iraq. It is laughable that you would even try make this comparison. The 1911 is a great gun for civilians. And they would probably do ok as a service weapon. But there are better options out there as far as ease of maintenance, realiablity in a warzone, magazine capacity, and weight.

[timcalhoun]

A "serious USPSA competitor" doesn't compete in Afganistan or Iraq. It is laughable that you would even try make this comparison. The 1911 is a great gun for civilians. And they would probably do ok as a service weapon. But there are better options out there as far as ease of maintenance, realiablity in a warzone, magazine capacity, and weight.

The comparison was originally made to show the superiority of the trigger and in the hands of the very well trained it can and will make a difference. So, the fact that special forces would choose the platform makes perfect sense.

Edited January 28, 2011 by timcalhoun

[Jasongar8]

The comparison was originally made to show the superiority of the trigger and in the hands of the very well trained it can and will make a difference. So, the fact that special forces would choose the platform makes perfect sense.

A fighting handgun doesn't need to shoot one hole groups. It needs to go bang every time you pull the trigger.

[strickj]

A fighting handgun doesn't need to shoot one hole groups. It needs to go bang every time you pull the trigger.

Do 1911s not go bang every time?

[timcalhoun]

A fighting handgun doesn't need to shoot one hole groups. It needs to go bang every time you pull the trigger.

Well, the 1911s service record stands on it's own. And if you need more capacity and lighter weight get a 2011.........that way you have the best of everything.

[timcalhoun]

Do 1911s not go bang every time?

No......they got everyone killed in WW1, WW2, Vietnam etc...................

[kesava]

A "serious USPSA competitor" doesn't compete in Afganistan or Iraq. It is laughable that you would even try make this comparison. The 1911 is a great gun for civilians. And they would probably do ok as a service weapon. But there are better options out there as far as ease of maintenance, realiablity in a warzone, magazine capacity, and weight.

I know 10 green berets who disagree wholeheartedly. Quite a few gentleman in the 5th group prefer them.

[USMCJG]

And they would probably do ok as a service weapon. But there are better options out there as far as ease of maintenance, realiablity in a warzone.....

Not a single one of those "better options" has been proven in every type of terrain, on nearly every continent, over the course of 100 years. The 1911 has been proven on the range and on the battlefield like no other handgun in the history of the world. The US didn't even look to replace it until it had already been in service for over 70 years. And then it was primarily to change to the NATO 9mm round, not because of any failings in the design. And even after all of that, the 1911 is still in use by the US military(not to mention various SWAT teams and the FBI). There is a reason the 1911 is the most copied firearm of any type in modern history, and it's not because they aren't any good.

[Jasongar8]

Guys I'm not saying that the 1911 isn't a good gun, but IMO there are better options out there.

[Jasongar8]

I know 10 green berets who disagree wholeheartedly. Quite a few gentleman in the 5th group prefer them.

And I'm sure if you asked 10 Navy SEALs they would prefer the Sig P226. People are going to prefer what they know and what they have trained with.

[323ssplt]

Seals love their 226's.....I've WORKED with them. Force Recon loves their 1911's.....I've WORKED with them. SF loves their 1911's and G19's and several other pistols....I've WORKED with them......Delta loves their 1911's and anything else they chose to carry......I've WORKED with them!!!!

My point in this is that every specialized unit has the descretion to choose pretty much what they want...........However, MOST of the operators who have that CHOICE chose a 1911............not necessarily because it is sexy, or cool, but because it WORKS, and works well!!!

Yes it is true the 1911 requires more cleaning than some other pistols, but ask any Marine (The service of topic here) how much weapon's maintenance is bashed into their heads....... I KNOW again....because I have BEEN there!!!

IDPA, etc is a game, so while it can provide a decent idea of a weapon's serviceablilty, nothing like the moon dust of Iraq or the mountains of the 'stan can fully villify or verify the ultimate success of a service pistol.

And, to those of you who don't know, The Marine Corps is one of the most stringent services when it comes to testing a weapon before adopting it. Why do you think the Corps passed on the M4 in favor of the M16A4...........because they found out the damned M4 didn't work. Yes, they are beginning to adopt it, in limited numbers, but not until we let the Army and everyone else figure out that it didn't work, and until Colt started making them correctly!

[Guest Grudgie]

I think what we are all forgetting here is that IT'S THE MARINE CORPS. They are still using Kbars and 60 year old battle rifles for goodness sake.

The Army can have the fancy gear, the Marines have The Marines.

Personally I think we should issue Colt .45 lc single action revolvers but the 1911 is decent.

But hey, I think the best decision the militarys can make is to let evry soldier/sailor/airmen/Marine buy and use his own sidearm if he so choses.

[PC7]

Vickers used 1911’s (and other pistols as well) in combat with Tier 1 SOF and he said if he had to go to Afghanistan today, he would take the HK45. Keep in mind he is not on HK’s payroll and was a very respected 1911 pistol-smith, as well as one of the top consultants in the small-arms industry.

Other than routine cleaning, the HK45 doesn’t require maintenance until 20,000 rounds; can you do that with a 1911? As for the trigger, it is not crap but it isn’t a target trigger, it is a combat trigger. The 1911 did perform well in past wars, but so did the M1 Garand, would you want the Garand in Afghanistan?

Edited January 28, 2011 by PC7

[Guest Grudgie]

I would love the Garand in Afghanistan. Other than weighing a bit more and reloading evry now and then, I wiuld prefer it over a 16. Mmm, more knock down power, more reliable, and longer range.

[PC7]

I would love the Garand in Afghanistan. Other than weighing a bit more and reloading evry now and then, I wiuld prefer it over a 16. Mmm, more knock down power, more reliable, and longer range.

Are you serious? If so, may I be so bold as to guess that: A) you’ve never been a soldier you’ve never been to Afghanistan, or C) all of the above. In all sincerity, I’m not trying to be condescending or rude; it is just that if you don’t understand why the Garand would be way down the list for weapons in Afghanistan, then it would take me writing you a book to get the point across.

Yes, I know the Garand is still used in competition, just like the 1911. Also, save the “it was perfect in the Big War,†just try getting in and out of an MRAP, or humping in the mountains, with one.

Edited January 28, 2011 by PC7

[Guest Grudgie]

I believe you are one of those 'Nutnfancy' disciples who believes if a gun isn't black or made of synthetic material it is inferior.

[Punisher84]

I believe you are one of those 'Nutnfancy' disciples who believes if a gun isn't black or made of synthetic material it is inferior.

Yea you really evaded that question. I wouldn't want a Garand in Afghanistan and I'm not a black plastic wonder or "nutjobfancy" fan.

[DaveTN]

Everything is application driven; let the “Special Operators†choose what they want.

I don’t see that they are suggesting a change for all the military.

Gun manufacturers don’t get to submit whatever they like on a government contract. I would guess that the requirements kept S&W, SIG and others from offering anything other than a 1911.

With Kimber and S&W bowing out; it sounds to me like this might be more trouble than the contract is worth. They both make a better 1911 than Colt or SA. IMO of course.

[Steelharp]

With Kimber and S&W bowing out; it sounds to me like this might be more trouble than the contract is worth. They both make a better 1911 than Colt or SA. IMO of course.

It's ok to like bells and whistles over plain functional reliability. Really. It is.

[DaveTN]

It's ok to like bells and whistles over plain functional reliability. Really. It is.

Make the right choice and you can have it all; no need to choose one over the other. The military obviously isn’t a price buyer.