Marine Corp New 1911

[willis68]

Corps considers 2 guns for new MARSOC .45 - Marine Corps News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Marine Corps Times

MARINE CORPS TIMES

The battle for a new .45 cal. pistol

2 handgun prototypes move to the fore in Corps’ search for a fresh .45

cal. weapon

By Dan Lamothe

dlamothe@militarytimes.com

LAS VEGAS — The competition to provide Marine special operators with new

.45-caliber semiautomatic pistols is beginning to take shape, with at least

two companies submitting samples to the Marine Corps, and others bowing

out.

Colt Defense, of Hartford, Conn., and Springfield Armory, of Geneseo,

Ill., sent samples of their lat est 1911 pistols to acquisition officers

this

fall, company officials said Jan. 18 during the Shooting, Hunting, Outdoor

Trade Show and Conference, known as SHOT Show, in Las Vegas. The Corps is

expected to seek proposals from the defense industry soon.

The M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistol is modeled after earlier versions of

the semi-automatic 1911 pistol used since the 1980s by Force Reconnaissance

units. The Corps could buy between 400 and 12,000 as part of a contract

worth up to $22.5 million, according to Marine Corps Systems Command.

Earlier

versions were called the MEU (SOC) pistol, short for Marine expeditionary

unit (special operations capable). Weapons experts at Marine Corps Base

Quan

tico, Va., have hand-assembled 1911 pistols chambered for .45 caliber

Automatic Colt Pistol ammo for years, fielding them primarily to Force Recon

and

Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command.

With both communities growing, however, the Corps is seeking an

off-the-shelf option.

Force Recon was brought back in 2008 after a two-year hiatus designed to

help the Corps stand up and round out MARSOC. The Corps’ special operations

command was activated in 2006, and is working to grow to about 2,700

personnel by 2014.

The Corps hasn’t said that the next-generation pistol must be a 1911-style

model, but industry sources at SHOT Show said they assume it will be. The

next weapon ideally will fire with the Corps’ existing .45-caliber pistol

magazines, Marine officials said.

Colt tweaked its 01070RG rail gun pistol and sent 10 prototypes to

Quantico in the fall, said Greg Rozon, a product development engineering

manager

at Colt.

The civilian 1911 rail gun usual ly has a stainless steel finish and

rosewood grips, but Colt’s proto types for the Corps have a desert color

Cercoat

finish, eliminating glare on the weapon and making it less identifiable at

a distance. They also have more stainless steel internal components to

reduce corrosion. They’re equipped with a popular night sight made by Novak

of

Parkers burg, W.Va. It utilizes tritium, a radioactive form of hydrogen,

to power the optic, which is mounted on a Picatinny rail.

Springfield Armory sent the Corps six copies of its PX9105ML pistol for

evaluation, said Larry Collinson, a production manager with the company.

The

company calls it the Full-Sized MC Opera tor, with the “MC†standing for

Marine Corps. The pistol has a black slide with a green chassis. It also

includes tritium night sights, and has been sold to the Corps in small

quantities before. The Corps also has bought Springfield Armory 1911 slides

in the

past to use on pistols assembled at Quan tico, Collinson said.

Other 1911 manufacturers have bowed out on the competition.

Kimber America, of Elmsford, N.Y., is widely considered a player in the

1911 civilian and law enforcement market but decided against submitting

samples to the Corps in the fall, company offi cials said. They cited time

restraints and other competing business priorities.

Smith & Wesson, of Springfield, Mass., also produces 1911s, including a

new line called the enhanced “E†series. The weapons won’t be in production

until the end of the month, however, and company officials decided it would

be best to not rush the Corps pro totypes last fall before they were

proven, said Joe Bergeron, direc tor of defense programs for Smith &

Wesson. □

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Edited January 25, 2011 by willis68

[nightrunner]

I'm interested to see who wins or if there are any other participants.

Wonder if colt will sell the milspec version to civilians?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

12,000 pistols for $22.5 million would be maybe $1875 per pistol. That sounds like a pretty reasonable price considering the application? Especially considering that a military requirement sheet for the weapon might be a document longer than the bible?

[mav]

I wonder why they aren't looking at a Glock.

[Steelharp]

I wonder why they aren't looking at a Glock.

No thumb safety.

[323ssplt]

As a Marine Sniper, I wish they would look at this for general issue, or at least as a supplimental issue sidearm....

[TGO David]

Other than backward compatibility with their existing inventory of 1911 magazines, I find it hard to believe that they are looking at the 1911 platform still. There are others out there that would make better replacements for it, IMO.

[JReedEsq]

I still consider myself a newb, but I don't see why they would consider anything other than the Glock or M&P lines. Either would offer greater capacity and be more cost effective.

[timcalhoun]

[Guest 10mm4me]

I still consider myself a newb, but I don't see why they would consider anything other than the Glock or M&P lines. Either would offer greater capacity and be more cost effective.

Because there is some guy making all these decisions with alot of stars on his shoulders who used the 1911 when he first came in so that's what he wants. Besides, Marines are too dang sexy to use anything other than a 1911. I have glocks, but I love 1911's. The history, the mystique, the lines...THERE'S NOTHING BETTER.

[Armed Aviator]

My son, an Enlisted Marine for over 11 years, get's commissioned June 1st. I hope he gets the best and not the lowest bid contractor. Just say'n

[323ssplt]

Other than backward compatibility with their existing inventory of 1911 magazines, I find it hard to believe that they are looking at the 1911 platform still. There are others out there that would make better replacements for it, IMO.

Have you ever seen how hard Marines are on their gear. My last M9 that I was issued looked like it had been washed with a bunch of rocks and then trown down a hill. I love Glocks, I have carried a G19 for years, but I just really wonder how well a polymer pistol would hold up that well. Now, before all the nay sayers come out, I know very well that Austria and quite a few other countries issue the Glock, but the Marine Corps is the bastard stepchild when it comes to the armed forces, and generally has to "make do" with weapons that are WAY past their service life.

Plus, a single stack 1911, or similar style 45 would be more "universal" amongst troops. A perfect example is my wife. She is 5'2". She is a medic in the Army, on her way to Iraq as we speak, and while she is a gun person, has a very difficult time finding a handgun that fits her hand. She has gone through Glocks, Sigs and a few others, but finally settled on, guess what, a fulll size 1911 as her civilian carry gun, because as she puts it "It fits my hand better than anything else, and I can hit whatever I'm aiming at...repeatedly!!"

[Guest 5Legion]

MARSOC - who are those guys anyway?

I like 1911s too, but the Glock is the way to go IMO. KISS.

I was issued a Remington Rand in OIF I and gladly swapped for a G19 when I got the chance.

5L

[TGO David]

Have you ever seen how hard Marines are on their gear. My last M9 that I was issued looked like it had been washed with a bunch of rocks and then trown down a hill. I love Glocks, I have carried a G19 for years, but I just really wonder how well a polymer pistol would hold up that well. Now, before all the nay sayers come out, I know very well that Austria and quite a few other countries issue the Glock, but the Marine Corps is the bastard stepchild when it comes to the armed forces, and generally has to "make do" with weapons that are WAY past their service life.

I never said I felt that the Glock was the way to go. HK45, perhaps. M&P 45 perhaps. There are others that I'm too tired to think about but still, the 1911 platform -- as nice and nostalgic as it is -- is not exactly state of the fighting art anymore. And I'm a big 1911 fan.

[323ssplt]

I was referring to all polymer frame pistols, when I used the glock as a generic example. The 1911 is an archaic design, however it is well known and easy to shoot.

Now, if someone would come up with a metal framed, single action, single stack 40 or 45 that had a low bore axis (lower than the sig 220) then I would be all over it.

Smith almost had it with the 645, but it had too many problems.

[323ssplt]

MARSOC - who are those guys anyway?

I like 1911s too, but the Glock is the way to go IMO. KISS.

I was issued a Remington Rand in OIF I and gladly swapped for a G19 when I got the chance.

5L

Your Remington Rand was shot out by that point in time and I wouldn't have wanted it either. However, I unfortunately have had to use the 9mm NATO round in combat and have been less than impressed. For civilian carry, I love the 9mm round, but in 9mm NATO loading, it is way too hot and doesn't have enough of that fabled "knock down power" that a 45 or even i believe a 40 would have in a military FMJ configuration.

[323ssplt]

Final thought, if someone could produce a 45 caliber Browning Highpower upper, with a singlestack non pivoting lower without a mag safety I would be in hog heaven and I would deam that the ultimate combat handgun. trigger

[timcalhoun]

Of all the platforms that are out there, the 1911/2011 is still by far the one that has the best interface. Plus you can get really high on the gun getting the bore axis more in line with your arm so that recoil management is much better.

It is not a mistake that they completely dominant in USPSA competition either. In the divisions that you can shoot glocks, xd's, M&Ps and JMB's design, The old work horse is overwhelmingly the choice above all others by a huge margin. Among the top shooters who are not endorsed by gun companies and therefore can choose what they want, they choose the "antiquated" 100 year old design almost 100% of the time. Bullseye competitors prefer the platform as well since you can get a great roll trigger and unsurpassed accuracy.

Yes, there are a few big dogs like Dave, Bob and Jessie who have/do run a glock...........But, Jessie switched to the 2011 the moment she became a free agent and I'm certain that Dave would do the same if he left glock, Bob is the only one at the top of the games that actually prefers the glock. Rob Leatham certainly could use an XD in Limited but of course he has never and I'm sure would never do that. And he slaps the trigger.

This year at the Nationals there was only one gun other than JMB's design in the top 20 in the Limited division and zero in open. It's the same year after year.

It's the trigger! The better you get the more it matters! So it makes complete sense to me that our special forces for the most part will sometimes "get it". They train and shoot more.

So until someone invents a better interface that is as manageable and user friendly, you will always see the old gun around. As far as being cost effective.....I have yet to see a plastic gun that has been re-barreled 2 or 3 times. 100 or 200K rounds out of a 1911 is not that special. Jerry Barnhart has a 2011 with over 300K on it and is still going strong.

[mav]

Of all the platforms that are out there, the 1911/2011 is still by far the one that has the best interface. Plus you can get really high on the gun getting the bore axis more in line with your arm so that recoil management is much better.

It is not a mistake that they completely dominant in USPSA competition either. In the divisions that you can shoot glocks, xd's, M&Ps and JMB's design, The old work horse is overwhelmingly the choice above all others by a huge margin. Among the top shooters who are not endorsed by gun companies and therefore can choose what they want, they choose the "antiquated" 100 year old design almost 100% of the time. Bullseye competitors prefer the platform as well since you can get a great roll trigger and unsurpassed accuracy.

Yes, there are a few big dogs like Dave, Bob and Jessie who have/do run a glock...........But, Jessie switched to the 2011 the moment she became a free agent and I'm certain that Dave would do the same if he left glock, Bob is the only one at the top of the games that actually prefers the glock. Rob Leatham certainly could use an XD in Limited but of course he has never and I'm sure would never do that. And he slaps the trigger.

This year at the Nationals there was only one gun other than JMB's design in the top 20 in the Limited division and zero in open. It's the same year after year.

It's the trigger! The better you get the more it matters! So it makes complete sense to me that our special forces for the most part will sometimes "get it". They train and shoot more.

So until someone invents a better interface that is as manageable and user friendly, you will always see the old gun around. As far as being cost effective.....I have yet to see a plastic gun that has been re-barreled 2 or 3 times. 100 or 200K rounds out of a 1911 is not that special. Jerry Barnhart has a 2011 with over 300K on it and is still going strong.

Eloquent as always.

But, Jessie switched to the 2011 the moment she became a free agent and I'm certain that Dave would do the same if he left glock

I know I am Joe Nobody who only recently got into firearms a little over a year ago. I just purchased a new Nighthawk 2011 (17 capacity 9mm) a little over a week ago. I have now put over 600 rounds through it, and it is a joy to shoot. I also have a tricked out Glock 34. The Glock is a very fine gun, and I am glad I bought one (I will probably buy another G19 in the near future). However, if I were given the choice between my G34 or the 2011 for target shooting and/or use in a self defense situation, I would have to go with my new 2011. I just like the 1911/2011 platform better.

I have at least another 6 months to go before I get my Springfield Pro in, which I am highly anticipating.

[PC7]

Too bad they didn’t have the foresight to follow the US Navel Special Warfare Command’s lead in adopting the Heckler & Koch HK45c. It is working well for them. It is a more reliable platform, and cheaper too.

[TGO David]

Honestly I guess where I'm coming from here is that the USMC seems to be stuck in some sort of institutional timewarp where they can't divorce themselves from emotional attachment to an inanimate object. I have read first-hand reports from Marines who have personally seen piles of inoperable MEUSOC 1911's stacked in the Force Recon armory, keeping full-time Marine armorers busy and backlogged.

Why not just use this as the impetus to switch to a modern platform with improved reliability, higher magazine capacity, better ergonomics, lighter construction, improved resistance to corrosion, identical accuracy between handguns (recognizing that almost no two 1911's with the slop required to be reliable are going to be similarly accurate) and the benefit of drop-in parts that modern handguns enjoy. 1911's require a lot of hand-fitting, after all.

As 323ssplt pointed out, troops are hard on their weapons. As Larry Vickers has pointed out, running a combat 1911 means you either need to be a ruthless bastard about maintenance to keep it reliable, or have someone on staff who is. This seems to make choosing a 1911 counter-intuitive to the end-goal.

There are clearly better platforms to be had. They may even be "plastic" guns.

[JReedEsq]

Honestly I guess where I'm coming from here is that the USMC seems to be stuck in some sort of institutional timewarp where they can't divorce themselves from emotional attachment to an inanimate object. I have read first-hand reports from Marines who have personally seen piles of inoperable MEUSOC 1911's stacked in the Force Recon armory, keeping full-time Marine armorers busy and backlogged.

Why not just use this as the impetus to switch to a modern platform with improved reliability, higher magazine capacity, better ergonomics, lighter construction, improved resistance to corrosion, identical accuracy between handguns (recognizing that almost no two 1911's with the slop required to be reliable are going to be similarly accurate) and the benefit of drop-in parts that modern handguns enjoy. 1911's require a lot of hand-fitting, after all.

As 323ssplt pointed out, troops are hard on their weapons. As Larry Vickers has pointed out, running a combat 1911 means you either need to be a ruthless bastard about maintenance to keep it reliable, or have someone on staff who is. This seems to make choosing a 1911 counter-intuitive to the end-goal.

There are clearly better platforms to be had. They may even be "plastic" guns.

Makes perfect sense to me....

Edited January 26, 2011 by JReedEsq

[TGO David]

Here's some good reading on the HK45 and how Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn evolved it from the [at the time] ongoing effort to field a new 1911 for various .mil bodies.

pistol-training.com » HK45 Interview with Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers

It's kind of insightful.

[timcalhoun]

Here's some good reading on the HK45 and how Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn evolved it from the [at the time] ongoing effort to field a new 1911 for various .mil bodies.

pistol-training.com » HK45 Interview with Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers

It's kind of insightful.

Yeah, it's almost like they were paid consultants and were intimately involved in its design or something. Sorry I couldn't resist.

This article has been brought up many times and I of course will not seriously attack Larry's intent or integrity. So, I can only speak to my experience with the platform (1911 that is). I'm just not sure how any gun on the planet can be as reliable as any one of the 6 1911/2011 I own. I will routinely run them 2-3k between cleanings during the shooting season (running black bullets and titegroup and if you are in the know, you know how filthy that combo is) with never a fear of a single hiccup. Granted they are full customs, built correctly, and tight as a drum everywhere. However, I've owned many factory guns that would do the same.

I would want nothing else in the field or in competition. Just my opinion. OMV

[Jasongar8]

FN FNP45 or HK45 and forget about the 1911.