Two handed vs. One handed groups

[peejman]

I went shooting with some friends for the first time in far too long last weekend. I found an unusual problem. During slow fire for best groupings (and bragging rights) at about 15yds, my 10 shot two-handed groups were 4-5", with the "fliers" low left. When I switched to one handed (either hand) my groups dropped to about 2" with no fliers.

These were slow fire shots with no attempt to bring the gun back on target quickly. I certainly shoot faster with two hands, but I can't help but think that this slow fire difference is impacting my fast fire (double tap) group sizes, which weren't very good either. :-\

Ever since I started shooting handguns, my flinch or miss has always been low left. I've improved that by refining my trigger pull motion and simply trying hard not to anticipate recoil. But it seems very odd that I actually shoot better with just one hand. I use the typical Weaver stance with thumbs forward two-handed grip. I place my support hand as high as possible with my index finger stuffed under the trigger guard.

All of the "error charts" I can find seem to be specific to one handed shooting rather than two handed. Anyone else experience this? Suggestions on how to improve?

[Jonnin]

Two quick things that I find cause me trouble with a 2h grip are

1) the offhand does not fit on the gun (small frame pistol) which leads to a poor 2h grip which leads to problems and

2) the offhand jitters adding to the main hand jitters. If you cannot hold the offhand steady, every little movement with it is going to add to every little movement of the primary hand, making your shooting worse. If this is the case, your offhand may be much weaker than your main hand and you need to work it out some.

It sounds like the second option. You are moving the gun with the offhand or exerting force with it when you shoot, possibly flinching with it but not the other hand, or the like.

[peejman]

Two quick things that I find cause me trouble with a 2h grip are

1) the offhand does not fit on the gun (small frame pistol) which leads to a poor 2h grip which leads to problems and

It happened both with my full size Ruger 9mm and my Taurus compact, so I don't think it's related to how my hands fit. I have small-ish hands and there's adequate space for both hands on both guns. My support hand isn't under the grip like I've seen a few times. It's directly on top of my strong hand.

2) the offhand jitters adding to the main hand jitters. If you cannot hold the offhand steady, every little movement with it is going to add to every little movement of the primary hand, making your shooting worse. If this is the case, your offhand may be much weaker than your main hand and you need to work it out some.

It sounds like the second option. You are moving the gun with the offhand or exerting force with it when you shoot, possibly flinching with it but not the other hand, or the like.

I don't think it's a strength problem either, I'm left handed but shoot right handed. I have done a little dry firing and I may be squeezing my support hand while I'm pulling the trigger, which is pulling the muzzle low left.

[Jonnin]

Do you have a gun with a laser on it? I have found that a close target with a laser, even dry-fire, lets you see the effects of your stance/grip/etc to quickly spot the problem.

At 50 feet, you are looking at a very tiny thing too, less than 1/2 a degree of movement will make inches of difference, and that is a very slight movement from a human perspective.

[Guest friesepferd]

Most likely you are holding the gun with your strong hand differently when you shoot one handed vs two handed.

Although the off hand should add support and strength to your grip, it can also throw your grip off. Take a good look at exactly how you are gripping the gun two handed - or have someone who knows what they are looking for take a look. I have found many many times that adding the 2nd hand often throws off good grip location if their are not careful.

[Guest gw2and4]

Often times we just pay more attention to fundamentals when firing one-handed...

[JAB]

Hey, there has to be some reason that bullseye competitors shoot one-handed, right? Honestly, with some of my handguns, I have found that I sometimes have better hits on a paper target when using the old bullseye stance of standing completely sideways to the target, putting my weak hand behind my back and firing one-handed at the target. I imagine this allows me to get my shoulder, arm and hand more in line and aligned with the target while reducing the effects of possibly twisting my torso more one way or the other between shots. I suspect it allows me to not only use the sights on the handgun, itself, but in some ways allows me to actually sight down my shooting arm.

Of course, that stance doesn't always work better and when it does it tends to be with handguns that have little recoil. I don't practice that stance all that much because I'd hate to try to maintain stability and retain my firearm with such a stance/grip in a bad social situation. Still, though, it is fun to shoot that way on occasion.

[peejman]

Hey, there has to be some reason that bullseye competitors shoot one-handed, right? Honestly, with some of my handguns, I have found that I sometimes have better hits on a paper target when using the old bullseye stance of standing completely sideways to the target, putting my weak hand behind my back and firing one-handed at the target. I imagine this allows me to get my shoulder, arm and hand more in line and aligned with the target while reducing the effects of possibly twisting my torso more one way or the other between shots. I suspect it allows me to not only use the sights on the handgun, itself, but in some ways allows me to actually sight down my shooting arm.

Of course, that stance doesn't always work better and when it does it tends to be with handguns that have little recoil. I don't practice that stance all that much because I'd hate to try to maintain stability and retain my firearm with such a stance/grip in a bad social situation. Still, though, it is fun to shoot that way on occasion.

You might be onto something, because that's exactly what I was doing while shooting one handed. I wouldn't say I was completely sideways, but definitely turned a lot, with other hand behind my back.

And for the question above, no laser to play with. Though I know when I've pulled the gun low left. Sometimes I can catch myself and not pull the trigger, sometimes not.

[Mason]

Would the sight picture be improoved due to the sights being just a few more inches from your eye? Basic physics show better sight picture SHOULD be achieved by getting further back behind the gun.

I'm just guessing but it sounds good to me.

[kesava]

I find that I can also shoot very good one handed, very slowly. My shooting coach said that its because we pay more attention to technique when we shoot one handed.

[DWARREN123]

Slow fire for targets and fast for Zombies!

[Jonnin]

Would the sight picture be improoved due to the sights being just a few more inches from your eye? Basic physics show better sight picture SHOULD be achieved by getting further back behind the gun.

I'm just guessing but it sounds good to me.

There is an effect caused by optics, but its not the sight picture. You can shoot with your eye right up on the rear sight and make a proper picture, the trouble is that as you get closer, the more you can move the gun to still be aligned on the target. By getting closer, the front and back sights appear to be much larger, so now you are aligning large objects and the center of the sights is very fat, which creates more room for errors caused by being "aligned" with the target but, in reality, not "dead center aligned". IE the sights line up but now the center of the front sight is 3 times wider so small errors are introduced that make your shooting much worse if you get that close.

[LngRngShtr]

heres the chart by Louis Awerbuck THE Louis Awerbuck for 2 handed shooting

http://www.neshooters.com/awerbuck.pdf just like single hand it is trigger control/finger placement and/or shot anticipation..

also dry fire with snap caps and make every movement in the sequence as perfect as possible let the front sight tell you whats happening... also learning to "call" your shots will help get you in tune with hand &eyes co-ordination ..( feels solid hit=solid hit vs. feels solid hit = where did it go ?)

I shoot mostly Isosceles when shooting 2 handed fast as it is more neutral and I tend to not over torque the gun with my support hand more of a push in than front to back with the first joint of the support hand joining up with the second joint of the strong hand getting as much grip contact as possible..

However I will revert to Weaver sometimes on long or methodical shots where time isn't as much a factor as accuracy using my bicep as a stock weld like a rifle...say a long shot on a steel plate or a tight 60 ft. no shoot in a USPSA match...

2 handed vs. 1 handed is about balance,.. try this next time.. shoot a few 1 handed to warm up then add your support hand with no tension at all, shoot a few then slowly increase "support" with your support hand until the shots wander then back off a bit and see where the tension is I used to toss them wide right every once and awhile ...found out it was my support side thumb against the frame a "thumb flinch" if you will... tried leaving enough air between my thumb and the frame for JMB's ghost and they went away...

Good luck and if I can help shoot me a PM

John

Bullseye shooter 24 years

USPSA 18 years B class tried IDPA, just wasn't for me..

Reloading 21 years

loving this addiction, almost all my life...

[peejman]

heres the chart by Louis Awerbuck THE Louis Awerbuck for 2 handed shooting

http://www.neshooters.com/awerbuck.pdf just like single hand it is trigger control/finger placement and/or shot anticipation..

also dry fire with snap caps and make every movement in the sequence as perfect as possible let the front sight tell you whats happening... also learning to "call" your shots will help get you in tune with hand &eyes co-ordination ..( feels solid hit=solid hit vs. feels solid hit = where did it go ?)

I shoot mostly Isosceles when shooting 2 handed fast as it is more neutral and I tend to not over torque the gun with my support hand more of a push in than front to back with the first joint of the support hand joining up with the second joint of the strong hand getting as much grip contact as possible..

However I will revert to Weaver sometimes on long or methodical shots where time isn't as much a factor as accuracy using my bicep as a stock weld like a rifle...say a long shot on a steel plate or a tight 60 ft. no shoot in a USPSA match...

2 handed vs. 1 handed is about balance,.. try this next time.. shoot a few 1 handed to warm up then add your support hand with no tension at all, shoot a few then slowly increase "support" with your support hand until the shots wander then back off a bit and see where the tension is I used to toss them wide right every once and awhile ...found out it was my support side thumb against the frame a "thumb flinch" if you will... tried leaving enough air between my thumb and the frame for JMB's ghost and they went away...

Good luck and if I can help shoot me a PM

John

Bullseye shooter 24 years

USPSA 18 years B class tried IDPA, just wasn't for me..

Reloading 21 years

loving this addiction, almost all my life...

Good info here, thank you. Hopefully I'll remember it whenever it is I find time to go shooting again.

[JAB]

... try this next time.. shoot a few 1 handed to warm up then add your support hand with no tension at all, shoot a few then slowly increase "support" with your support hand until the shots wander then back off a bit and see where the tension is...

That is something I am going to have to try.