Is ‘Project Gunwalker’ about to bust wide open?

[Guest Bronker]

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/tn-gun-owners-announcements/58333-notice-do-not-re-post-photos-written-content-you-do-not-own.html#post741957

I hate that things have come to this level, but they have. Folks can click the link to read the content. Thanks.

[Daniel]

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/2nd-amendment-issues/51816-project-gunwalker-about-bust-wide-open.html Please see this thread started back in January regarding this matter.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Exposed: The secret guns sting that backfired on the US - Americas, World - The Independent

[Guest Lester Weevils]

With regard to potential loss of life, an ATF boss told him: "if you are going to make an omelette, you need to scramble some eggs."

Has this phrase EVER been used to justify a government action which turned out beneficial?

[DaveTN]

Has this phrase EVER been used to justify a government action which turned out beneficial?

Yes, J. Robert Oppenheimer said it on August 7th 1945.

Edited June 19, 2011 by DaveTN

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Yes, J. Robert Oppenheimer said it on Auguast 7th 1945.

Thanks DaveTN

That does seem to possibly be an appropriate use of the phrase.

Maybe there are numerous other appropriate usages.

I was thinking of its use in the pre-WWII period. For instance the phase was used by USA leftists to excuse Stalin's actions, and to excuse many new deal draconian programs.

Wasn't alive back then, but from reading it seemed a rather common phrase. Dunno if exclusively among statists. Oppenheimer seemed a good enough feller, but was fairly far left politically. Maybe it wasn't the first time he used the phrase.

[Guest kickstand]

As unfortunate as the operation turned out, I do not disagree with it. It's silly to think that if the ATF simply seized these firearms in the first place, that somehow the cartel members would have gone unarmed, and not engaged in firefights with border agents, other LEO's, and each other. It would have slowed down a few guys for the time being, but would have done little to attack the big picture, which the ATF was trying to accomplish with this operation.

[ttocswob]

An operation that moved thousands of guns to the drug cartels, resulting in the deaths of two federal agents, and untold numbers of civilians - all in a misguided effort to pin the blame for Mexico's violence on American gun shops and gun owners...and you do not disagree with it?!

I'm beginning to think this country is a lost cause.

[Jonnin]

I think we found a piece of Obama's "under the radar" gun control, along with the UN resolutions. Wonder what else he has in the works that we don't know about yet...

[Daniel]

Merged three threads regarding this issue. I want to say I merged several others over the last few weeks.

[G27]

An operation that moved thousands of guns to the drug cartels, resulting in the deaths of two federal agents, and untold numbers of civilians - all in a misguided effort to pin the blame for Mexico's violence on American gun shops and gun owners...and you do not disagree with it?!

I'm beginning to think this country is a lost cause.

This.

[bajabuc]

+1

[bajabuc]

And another thing...at NO time and for NO cause should a government break it's own laws...and people wonder why I love this country and hate the government.

[ttocswob]

Thanx, Daniel....you've done more mergers than Donald Trump! And thanx also for not locking it down. So far it hasn't turned into an LEO bash, and that's clearly NOT what this is about.

Although, I was somewhat of the opinion that the original question - "Is 'Project Gunwalker' about to bust wide open?" - has been answered in the affirmative; and that maybe new thread(s) were appropriate.

That's why you're the mod.

In any case, IMO this scandal is a long way from being over.

[Guest 1817ak47]

An operation that moved thousands of guns to the drug cartels, resulting in the deaths of two federal agents, and untold numbers of civilians - all in a misguided effort to pin the blame for Mexico's violence on American gun shops and gun owners...and you do not disagree with it?!

I'm beginning to think this country is a lost cause.

one of if not the best quotes yet. these no way to know how many innocent peoples death this nonsense has contributed to

[ttocswob]

Special Agent Vince Cefalu was served with with termination paperwork today by the ATF.

Breaking: ATF heeds Issa's 'no retaliation' warning by...retaliating

Cefalu Firing Can you say "reprisal" or "retaliation"?

[Worriedman]

Issa: DOJ Claims Are 'Outright Lie'

DOJ is claiming they briefed Issa in 2010 on the "Fast and Furious" operation, Issa says they are lying.

[Guest kickstand]

An operation that moved thousands of guns to the drug cartels, resulting in the deaths of two federal agents, and untold numbers of civilians - all in a misguided effort to pin the blame for Mexico's violence on American gun shops and gun owners...and you do not disagree with it?!

I'm beginning to think this country is a lost cause.

The attempt of the operation was to build a case against the leaders of the cartel, not point the finger at American gun shops.

Also 1,700 =/= "thousands". Do you really think they would have ceased operations, gone unarmed, and not engaged in firefights if these particular guns were seized?

[Worriedman]

The attempt of the operation was to build a case against the leaders of the cartel, not point the finger at American gun shops.

Also 1,700 =/= "thousands". Do you really think they would have ceased operations, gone unarmed, and not engaged in firefights if these particular guns were seized?

Please post the facts of your statement about the intent of the operation.

And of course they would not shut down being armed, when they can buy fully automatic weapons from their neighbors to the south for much cheaper than they can get semis from U.S. Stores.

[redfsr]

I followed the case they had on the Guatemalans here in Nashville. If they can buy them cheaper I don't understand how these guys were doubling and tripling their money on Glocks and FN Five-Sevens they smuggled south. There is clearly a market for U.S. Guns down there. How do you fix it? Letting the guns walk clearly isn't the answer. I think part of the problem is going after the straw buyer doesn't result in anyone doing much time. That came out in the OIG report last year criticizing them for not going after the bigger fish.

[ttocswob]

Kinda hard, kick, to build a case against the cartels when they did not follow the weapons, did not use electronic tracers, and did not notify the Mexican authorities to be on the lookout for these guns. And why would drug cartels pay $400-500 a pop for semi auto AKM's when they can buy the real full auto deal on the black market for a fraction of that amount? and that 1700+ are the confirmed guns, numbers of 2500 to 3000 are widely reported for Fast and Furious alone.

Yes they could have got guns somewhere else - the fact remains that multiple murders were committed with guns provided courtesy of the ATF. This is a clear violation of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations, for starters. Knowingly providing murder weapons to murderers makes one an accessory to those murders, does it not? Next time they let a drug pusher go because, well, they could have bought dope somewhere else...maybe I'll buy that argument.

Multiple felonies were committed by the ATF and other agencies involved. And that doesn't bother you...

NVM, I'm violating one of my rules. If you truly believe the ATF's stated purpose of this operation, then I have a nice stretch of plateau beach frontage I'd sell you...cheap!

[Worriedman]

Articles: Fast and Furious Fiasco: Time to Abolish the ATF

Melson is not being allowed to testify, supposedly DOJ blocking his appearance before Issa's committee. From the article:

In the meantime, here's Holder's dilemma in a nutshell: If he doesn't fire Melson, the issue will continue to boil on the front burner. If he does, Melson is free to talk to the Committee, and if my suspicions are correct, Melson's testimony will lead to Holder's long deserved downfall as Attorney General.

[redfsr]

Watch the video in this article. 'Project Gunrunner' Whistleblower Says ATF Sent Him Termination Notice - FoxNews.com

[Guest Lester Weevils]

There are those who suspect that guns were allowed to walk, not to catch higher-up smugglers, but to cause scandal and public outrage against USA gun laws and law-abiding USA gun dealers, sparking a public backlash demanding more stringent USA gun laws.

The ATFE instructed southwest gun dealers to cooperate with the obvious straw purchase shennanigans, theoretically to advance criminal investigation of higher-up smugglers.

That alternate explanation for the project's motivation isn't entirely unrealistic, considering the "lax USA gun law" hysteria which has been fed by such as Hillary Clinton's State Dept and Janet Napolitano's DHS over the last couple of years.

But surely it would be obvious paranoia to suspect that propaganda could be the primary purpose of the program?

Surprisingly the democrats continue to push this angle even in the midst of the ATF scandal. They are trying to use ATF criminal-stupid mismanagement as an excuse to push stiffer gun laws! What a fabulous idea-- Give a politically-motivated ATF even more laws to incompetently enforce!

Democrat: Controversial ATF program shows need for tougher gun laws - CNN.com

That is bizarre and seems to add evidence that the ATF mismanagement was intentional to exacerbate border problems and provide an excuse to pass more gun law. One would think that in the midst of a scandal which could be easily interpreted as a criminal propaganda operation, that the democrats would at least be smart enough to keep their heads down and not add to the appearance that propaganda was the primary pupose of Project Gunrunner. This seems either remarkably dumb or remarkably shameless.

They are not making it easy to tell the difference between reality and paranoia.

A brief quote from the CNN article-- Cummings, the ranking Democrat on the committee, told a forum on illegal firearms trafficking he organized Thursday that he knew the recommendations of the new report "will face stiff resistance in Congress and beyond." "Before today's forum even began, it was criticized as a conspiracy to confiscate the firearms of law-abiding citizens, which is ridiculous," ... In the report, federal agents called existing laws against straw purchasers insufficient and said the country needed a specific statute against weapons trafficking. "Prosecutors and law enforcement agents should not have to bend over backwards to imprison those who provide military-grade weapons to murderers," Cummings said.

To imprison those who provide military-grade weapons to murderers then perhaps we should start by sending higher-ups in ATF and Justice Dept to jail. Existing law may be adequate if existing law is properly enforced on those gov bureaucrats?

[redfsr]

This just got a little more interesting. Wonder how big the snow ball will get before it stops rolling. According to Melson's testimony, the main suspect in the trafficking case was an FBI informant using funds provided by the FBI to make the purchases. The FBI failed to tell anyone until April 2011 even though they knew the ATF and DEA were investigating their informant.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/06/justice-department-obstructing-fast-and-furious-gun-probe-atf-director-says/

Edited July 6, 2011 by redfsr