Is ‘Project Gunwalker’ about to bust wide open?

[DaveTN]

Dave, it really doesn't matter if it was the particular gun that fired the fatal

bullet, does it?

It matters to me. I really couldn’t care less if they allowed guns to go into Mexico to track where they went. Everyone is up in arms because they say the AFT lost track of the guns and one was used to kill a Border Patrol Agent. If that didn’t happen; it doesn’t need to be addressed. To blame this action for the death of that Agent you would need to believe that if it wasn’t for this action that criminal would not have been there and been armed.

Dave, it really doesn't matter if it was the particular gun that fired the fatal

bullet, does it? What the heck is that particular gun doing there, in the first place?

I don’t give a rolling rip down a razor blade how many guns go to Mexico, where they come from, or if they are legal, and neither would you if it wasn’t a chance to blast our government. The Mexican government does nothing to stop the illegals crossing the border that are helping to destroy our economy. They don’t help us apprehend criminals that flee to Mexico unless there is something in it for them. Their Police are corrupt and help the criminals. Then their President comes to our Congress and asks them to ban assault rifles because they are making their way into his country??? Screw him and the donkey he rode in on.

A while back a carry permit holder shot a cop on a traffic stop. He then stood over him and fired three more rounds into him to make sure he was dead. Do we need to address how that gun got there and why he was carrying a gun? No, and we don’t need to address it in another county either.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Everyone is up in arms because the ATF "did" lose track of almost all of the guns

in their illegal operation. And the reason that everyone is also up in arms is that

their little venture in this area isn't telling them anything except that they are stupid.

The "other reason" for this operation they started could very well be in relation to

anti-gun legislation that has been mentioned by Holder et al since the current administration

has been in office.

I'll blast "our" government any time I think they are doing something wrong. Thank you!

You presume to know a lot about me. Why don't you stay on topic? I asked a simple question.

And I doubt any permit holders are involved. But I do give a rolling rip if our government is

doing something wrong that could affect us all.

[QuietDan]

Regarding: "Is 'Project Gunwalker' about to bust wide open"

After eight months, after 18 pages of posts -- 177 posts -- I'd have to say "No." Project Gunwalker is not about to bust open.

I don't even have the heart to go back and read all the previous posts.

Will 'Project Gunwalker' be broken open eventually? I certainly hope so. I'm waiting for the former Attorney General Eric Holder's perp walk, his trial, his conviction on high treason charges, and his televised (self-censored).

[Guest Lester Weevils]

We could improve our relations with Mexico by honoring Mexico's extradition requests. Let Mexico put Holder and friends on trial.

[ttocswob]

IIRC, one report that I read basically said that the 7.62 round recovered from Agent Terry's body was too fragmented to conclusively trace to a specific firearm. Dave, if you want to exonerate the gun runners on that basis, more power to you.

[Guest oldsmobile98]

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I really couldn’t care less if they allowed guns to go into Mexico to track where they went.

I don’t give a rolling rip down a razor blade how many guns go to Mexico, where they come from, or if they are legal...

With all due respect, you are totally and utterly alone. No one from law enforcement agrees with you that letting guns walk to a region controlled by violent drug cartels in a foreign country is okay. No one agrees that putting innocent Mexican civilians at risk by putting guns in the hands of killers is okay.

If you find one public figure from law enforcement or politics that agrees with you, please let me know.

Here's a question for you: as a peace officer, would you have been cool with using taxpayer dollars to let guns walk into the hands of violent gangs in Illinois? As the civilian body count mounted (as it has in Mexico), would you have claimed that the increase in violence was unrelated to your tactics? That the thugs would have had guns anyway? That your gunwalking tactics were necessary in order to find and arrest the leaders at the top of those gangs?

If you would support gunwalking as a law enforcement tactic here, even at the cost of the lives of American citizens, then I suppose you are at least consistent.

But if not, then I have another question for you. Is the life of an innocent Mexican civilian worth less than the life of an American?

Eager to hear your response.

[DaveTN]

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With all due respect, you are totally and utterly alone. No one from law enforcement agrees with you that letting guns walk to a region controlled by violent drug cartels in a foreign country is okay. No one agrees that putting innocent Mexican civilians at risk by putting guns in the hands of killers is okay.

If you find one public figure from law enforcement or politics that agrees with you, please let me know.

Here's a question for you: as a peace officer, would you have been cool with using taxpayer dollars to let guns walk into the hands of violent gangs in Illinois? As the civilian body count mounted (as it has in Mexico), would you have claimed that the increase in violence was unrelated to your tactics? That the thugs would have had guns anyway? That your gunwalking tactics were necessary in order to find and arrest the leaders at the top of those gangs?

If you would support gunwalking as a law enforcement tactic here, even at the cost of the lives of American citizens, then I suppose you are at least consistent.

But if not, then I have another question for you. Is the life of an innocent Mexican civilian worth less than the life of an American?

Eager to hear your response.

First off I’m not a cop anymore and I’m not representing my statements as one.</SPAN>

Secondly, I didn’t say I supported it; I said I just don’t care.</SPAN>

Sure, everyone you ask is going to say it wasn’t a good idea now that it is being blamed for the death of an American. But someone had to think it was a good idea…. They did it.</SPAN>

The Mexican government doesn’t have the desire or the ability to stop he cartels. We have both the desire and the ability, but it won’t be allowed. The Mexican government is sucking money out of this country in the name of drug enforcement; they don’t want to fix the problem.</SPAN>

If you believe that the Mexican cartels are getting their guns from legitimate guns shops in the southwest; then the obvious fix is gun control. I do not believe it is happening; it doesn’t make sense..</SPAN>

Why in the world would I need to make a choice between the life of an American and the life of a Mexican?</SPAN>

I’d be more than happy to guarantee the President of Mexico that we could stop our guns from crossing the border if he would guarantee he could stop (or even make an attempt) drugs and illegals from crossing.</SPAN>

[Guest oldsmobile98]

First off I’m not a cop anymore and I’m not representing my statements as one.

Secondly, I didn’t say I supported it; I said I just don’t care.

I understand. I assume you would have had the same indifference to the use of gunwalking as a tactic back when you were a cop. And that disturbs me, because gunwalking is extremely likely to get civilians killed.

Sure, everyone you ask is going to say it wasn’t a good idea now that it is being blamed for the death of an American. But someone had to think it was a good idea…. They did it.

I don't believe anyone ever thought Operation Fast and Furious was a good idea as a law enforcement operation. The ostensible reason for letting the guns walk was to track them in order to find the drug cartel kingpins. The problem with that, aside from all the innocent civilians dying, was that the guns in this case were not tracked. The US government can't track guns in Mexico, and it did not let the Mexican government know about the whole operation.

As has been said before, the only way this whole thing makes sense is if it was designed from the start to increase violence in Mexico, blame American gun shops, and allow American politicians to "come to the rescue" by passing gun control here. In other words, it was not a law enforcement operation. It was political operation designed to help pass gun control in America.

The Mexican government doesn’t have the desire or the ability to stop he cartels. We have both the desire and the ability, but it won’t be allowed. The Mexican government is sucking money out of this country in the name of drug enforcement; they don’t want to fix the problem.

If you believe that the Mexican cartels are getting their guns from legitimate guns shops in the southwest; then the obvious fix is gun control. I do not believe it is happening; it doesn’t make sense..

It doesn't make sense (for one thing, the drug cartels have lots of weapons that are hard to get here: full autos and other Title II stuff). But this entire op was designed to make the American public think it made sense in order to soften us up to the idea of gun control.

Why in the world would I need to make a choice between the life of an American and the life of a Mexican?

My point is: if gunwalking as a law enforcement tactic is okay there, it is okay here too. If it is not okay here, it's not okay there, either. The reason gunwalking is a bad tactic anywhere is that it gets civilians killed. The life of a Mexican civilian is not worth less than the life of an American civilian.

I’d be more than happy to guarantee the President of Mexico that we could stop our guns from crossing the border if he would guarantee he could stop (or even make an attempt) drugs and illegals from crossing.

Gunwalking doesn't get back at the Mexican government for not helping us. It just gets Mexican civilians killed.

[hornett22]

Sorry, not many folks looking to cops and politicians for lessons in morality these days. They've lost all my respect.

[ttocswob]

ATF actor Kenneth Melson reassigned to DOJ, US Atty Dennis Burke gets sick and resigns.

Details at Fox & cBS

Confederate Yankee has more. Burke was the a$$wh...lawyer who denied victim status to Brian Terry's family.

Edited August 30, 2011 by ttocswob
nutter link

[Grunt67]

Gunwalker was one of the most ignorant schemes ever devised. I live for the day when

they shut down the BATF. These folks have a history.

Melson was "reassigned", not resigned. Atty. Gen Holder should be shipped out as well.

The whole DOJ is a disgrace to the laws of the land.

JMHO

[ttocswob]

Major developments:

L.A. Times: White House received e-mails about Fast and Furious.

CBS News: Cover-up in ATF gunwalker case?

In the latter, U.S. attorneys, "contemplated the connection between the two cases and sought to prevent the connection from being disclosed."

EDIT: Take time to read the Issa/Grassley letter (PDF!) to the current acting US Atty for Arizona - strong stuff.

Edited September 2, 2011 by ttocswob
link to letter

[Guest oldsmobile98]

Grenade stuff from Vanderboegh, Codrea, and Business Insider:

Phoenix Fast and Furious Improvised Mexican Grenade Case Blows Up in DOJ's Face. Trying to deflect blame, DOJ blames agents.

Federal LEO advocacy group charges retaliation for Gunwalker testimony

Botched U.S. Gun Smuggling Operation Let Grenades, IEDs 'Walk' Into Mexico

As Codrea has written here, Fast and Furious was NOT a botched operation. It was not a bungled sting. It was designed to do one thing (increase violence in Mexico), and in this it succeeded.

[Worriedman]

From the article:

"Late last Friday, CBS News and the Los Angeles Times almost buried the news that (Dan) Restrepo, the National Security Council's top man for Latin America, and two other officials, were in on ATF memos from the Gunwalker operation called "Fast and Furious."

That blows apart White House claims that it had no idea the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives was encouraging frontmen for Mexico's cartels to buy weapons from U.S. gun dealers — to "trace" them afterward."

A White House 'Gunrunner'? - Investors.com

Something rotten in Washington.

[ttocswob]

FOX Got 'Em. Huge Gunwalker Story Breaking Later This Morning.

Teaser per Mike Vanderboegh at Sipsey Street Irregulars, should be on Fox News at 9:00AM CDT. So far, Mike's sources have been spot-on.

UPDATE: Not TV, on the web. Apparently a third F&F gun was recovered at the Terry murder scene. Allegedly this was concealed because the gun in question, a SKS from Texas, could be linked to an FBI informant within the cartel.

[h=1]EXCLUSIVE: Third Gun Linked to 'Fast and Furious' Identified at Border Agent's Murder Scene[/h]

Read more:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/09/exclusive-third-gun-linked-to-fast-and-furious-identified-at-border-agents/#ixzz1XTFj5XqW

Edited September 9, 2011 by ttocswob
Update

[Guest PapaB]

Something rotten in Washington.

I think that's a given, even more so when Chicago politicians are in the White House.

[Worriedman]

More "stuff" floating to the top of this cesspool.

More Violent Crimes in Mexico a Result of Operation Fast and Furious - Katie Pavlich

[monkeylizard]

Uh-oh.....

Secret recordings raise new questions in ATF 'Gunwalker' operation - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

[ttocswob]

From Rep. Issa today, via Sipsey Street:

Issa indicated that he thought the third weapon disappeared because "people were panicking." He added later, "The smoking gun is the gun that killed Brian Terry."

Looks like the SKS, covered up by the FBI because it could easily trace to their informants, may indeed have been the murder weapon. The same informants' contracts were terminated by DEA and US Marshals because they were "stone cold killers."

But this doesn't matter because the cartels would have gotten guns (and thugs) somewhere else.../sarc

Edited September 21, 2011 by ttocswob
sp p g

[Guest WyattEarp]

Aren’t there whistleblower laws that cover this kind of stuff?

I don’t think a legislator has any power to offer immunity to anyone.

correct on both accounts. only Prosecutors (district, USA's, have that kind of power) and DoJ officials have that power.

of course legislators can call in a favor to a prosecutor and request that immunity be given, but they can't specifically give it themselves, as they have no jurisdiction over criminal matters.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

There are legendary stupid conspiracies and then there are mere stupid plans or actions.

Entertaining monica in the oval office-- Holstering a gun with finger on the trigger-- Mere stupid actions. A company or gov spends millions on failed products and programs-- Mere stupid plans. Of course some plans are sufficiently clueless to achieve legendary stupid.

Manson's Helter Skelter conspiracy plan may be a nearly perfect legendary stupid conspiracy against which others can be judged, having less than zero probability of success.

Maybe there is no practical difference between stupid plans and stupid conspiracies? There seems a qualitative difference, but perhaps not.

For instance the Iraq WMDs-- Stupid plan or stupid conspiracy? On one hand, perhaps the Bush admin was truly convinced of WMD's and it was merely faulty intelligence and poor judgement? Garden variety idiocy?

On the other hand, if the admin didn't expect to find WMDs but invaded anyway with WMDs as the central war justification-- Even more idiotic? One would think that a conspirator with IQ above room temperature would at least secretly hide WMD's in Iraq? Perhaps the lack of WMDs is evidence that the WMD fiasco was honest idiocy? If it was a conspiracy, tis difficult to imagine that the Bush admin would not have been smart enough to arrange to "discover" bunkers full of serin, yellowcake and anthrax?

Fast and Furious gives the impression of stupid conspiracy rather than criminal stupid plan. Hopefully we will find out. If it really is a conspiracy then it might be nearly as dumb as Helter Skelter. I thought these people are supposed to be really really smart?

[ttocswob]

IIRC, the prosecutor in the Manson case had serious reservations about going before a jury with an unprecedented and almost unbelievable conspiracy theory, even with strong evidence.

The various investigators of gunwalker have a similar hurdle to overcome in the court of public opinion - most of whom remain blissfully ignorant of the whole sordid mess. Rep. Issa may have had this in mind when he coined the term "felony stupid."

It's clear that Rep. Issa and Sen. Grassley have a strategy for the investigation; as the fact they held the "coverup email" until an appropriate time tends to confirm. The next hearings will include the House Judiciary committee as well as Oversight and Government reform.

[Oh Shoot]

I'm praying for a Deep Throat in this whole matter (and Solyndra, etc) that leads to the top, with a Nixonian outcome before the next election.

- OS

[Guest 6.8 AR]

There are legendary stupid conspiracies and then there are mere stupid plans or actions.

Entertaining monica in the oval office-- Holstering a gun with finger on the trigger-- Mere stupid actions. A company or gov spends millions on failed products and programs-- Mere stupid plans. Of course some plans are sufficiently clueless to achieve legendary stupid.

Manson's Helter Skelter conspiracy plan may be a nearly perfect legendary stupid conspiracy against which others can be judged, having less than zero probability of success.

Maybe there is no practical difference between stupid plans and stupid conspiracies? There seems a qualitative difference, but perhaps not.

For instance the Iraq WMDs-- Stupid plan or stupid conspiracy? On one hand, perhaps the Bush admin was truly convinced of WMD's and it was merely faulty intelligence and poor judgement? Garden variety idiocy?

On the other hand, if the admin didn't expect to find WMDs but invaded anyway with WMDs as the central war justification-- Even more idiotic? One would think that a conspirator with IQ above room temperature would at least secretly hide WMD's in Iraq? Perhaps the lack of WMDs is evidence that the WMD fiasco was honest idiocy? If it was a conspiracy, tis difficult to imagine that the Bush admin would not have been smart enough to arrange to "discover" bunkers full of serin, yellowcake and anthrax?

Fast and Furious gives the impression of stupid conspiracy rather than criminal stupid plan. Hopefully we will find out. If it really is a conspiracy then it might be nearly as dumb as Helter Skelter. I thought these people are supposed to be really really smart?

Hey Lester.

I don't remember the timeline that well,

but Saddam or one of his minions(son or brother)

used gas on the Kurds didn't he? I think that was

media induced bull**** concerning WMD's. There

was also a story about Yellow cake uranium in the

country. Don't know much more than that, but the

Dems struck up the band and apparently got the

public believing there were no WMD's when the

truth may have redefined into a lie. I'm not saying

Bush was a saint for the whole eight years of his

term, but I do think he was justified using the claim

of suspicion of WMD's. Now, as far as Clinton in a

conspiratorial mode, I wouldn't characterize using

his "other" brain to take a bunch of favors from

Ms. Lewinski as much of one as I would consider

Hillary being the conspiratorial part of the marriage.

Shredding documents, allegedly involved in deaths

surrounding Whitewatergate, etc. If any of the stuff

written about her is true, I'd compare her to Manson.

---

- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[greenego]

Holder Bragged About Project Gunrunner in 2009 - Mexico - Fox Nation