Chilhowee Park / Jacob's Building, Knoxville?

[Guest Charger]

Anyone know if they have a "GunBusters" sign posted? Wanting to hit the fishing show this weekend, but if it's posted I think I will just stay home.

[Erik88]

I'm not sure about the fishing show but I know all the gun shows are posted "no loaded firearms" and "no concealed carry".

But even if it wasn't posted you still can't carry there because it's a "park".

I don't like going to that part of town without my gun.

[Guest Charger]

Thanks for the response. I thought they had changed the "carry in parks" law? I think I need to do a little more reading. :-)

[Erik88]

Thanks for the response. I thought they had changed the "carry in parks" law? I think I need to do a little more reading. :-)

They did change that law but I believe Knoxville is 1 city that has some old "grandfathered" law in place that overrules the new law. I could be completely wrong though.

Check back on this thread later tonight and make sure. OhShoot or Fallguy will be along to confirm/correct me. They sleep with a copy of the TCA

[Guest Charger]

Ok thanks a bunch!

[ftncityfatboy]

Erik you are correct, Ktown has an existing law on the records that got gf'd in so the powers that be got to sidestep the new park's law. City owned parks are off limits in Ktown. Hey, what's wrong with that side of town? I grew up just down the road and hanging out at Chilhowee! That was back in the day when the Burlington gangs were mostly lighter skin fellows!!! Times have changed......I'm not crazy about it either

[Guest Charger]

I dont care for that part of town either. Too much crime, drugs, ho's and shootings. Thanks for the info guys!

[Erik88]

Erik you are correct, Ktown has an existing law on the records that got gf'd in so the powers that be got to sidestep the new park's law. City owned parks are off limits in Ktown. Hey, what's wrong with that side of town? I grew up just down the road and hanging out at Chilhowee! That was back in the day when the Burlington gangs were mostly lighter skin fellows!!! Times have changed......I'm not crazy about it either

It's sad isn't it? When you drive through the area you can tell that some of the homes used to be very nice and with some time/$$ could still be. Too sad.

Anyways, do you know if the Victor Ashe dog park is owned by the city also? I was curious because the GF takes the dog there quite often.

[macville]

Except I was told by our new gov in an email that Chilhowee did not apply under the carry rule like other city parks. Take it for what it's worth, but that's what he clearly said in an email.

[dou44]

do like i do ,take the mag out and leave it in the truck.check my xd in with then and let them zip tie it. then have it cut off when you leave and load it when you get inside your car or what ever you drive.

[Oh Shoot]

1. Chilhowee Park is a Knoxville city park, and does not allow carry in its city parks. It does not have to post the parks because of a grandfathered city ordinance it fell back on. Max penalty is up to $50 fine or 30 days in jail or both. There is also NO exception for guns to be allowed there under city ordinances because of a gun show.

(Macville, why don't you post the exact content of that email, this is the first time you've ever mentioned it, after being, like me, quite the critic of Knoxville's policies.)

2. Contrary to what Erik posted, I have never seen "no concealed carry" signs at the Jacobs Bldg. gun shows. I have seen, "no loaded guns" and "no loaded magazines" signs. Temporary ones, hand written.

3. Yes, Erik, Victor Ashe park, including the doggie part, is a city park like any other.

- OS

Edited January 19, 2011 by OhShoot

[Erik88]

2. Contrary to what Erik posted, I have never seen "no concealed carry" signs at the Jacobs Bldg. gun shows. ]

- OS

I guess it's just your poor eyesight at your old age

just kidding, you're probably right about that. I'll look here in a few weeks at the next show.

[Oh Shoot]

I guess it's just your poor eyesight at your old age

just kidding, you're probably right about that. I'll look here in a few weeks at the next show.

Kind of moot anyway, as

- "No Concealed Carry" is not a TCA conforming posting

- On the other hand, gun show or not, you could be arrested for carrying in a city park

As always, the city and its cops can do what they want.

- OS

[Erik88]

good point.

[Guest TargetShooter84]

I don't like giong to that part of town without my gun either....it sucks.

I stick to the Expo usually.

[macville]

1. Chilhowee Park is a Knoxville city park, and does not allow carry in its city parks. It does not have to post the parks because of a grandfathered city ordinance it fell back on. Max penalty is up to $50 fine or 30 days in jail or both. There is also NO exception for guns to be allowed there under city ordinances because of a gun show.

(Macville, why don't you post the exact content of that email, this is the first time you've ever mentioned it, after being, like me, quite the critic of Knoxville's policies.)

Okay, here's the full email after I pointed out that what I found on the city of knoxville website when it came to Chilhowee park and the punishment.

Mr, Rogers,

Thanks for getting in touch with me in regard to the City ordinance referencing guns in parks and your concern about gun shows. You raise a good point about holding the gun show in Chilhowee Park. Actually, despite its name, Chilhowee Park is not officially classified as a city park, but as an assembly facility and is not covered by the guns in parks ordinance. The gun shows therefore have operated and continue to operate in full compliance the ordinance affecting parks.

The wording referencing possible punishment you correctly identified in our ordinance has not applied for many years. Any language in the Code that declares something a misdemeanor or references jail time is obsolete. It's a remnant from the time when City Court had the same jurisdiction as the general sessions court. We are engaged in a project to revise the City Code to remove all such references, as well as other revisions to make general improvements to the Code. Your pointing this out underscores the importance of this effort so that citizens can research and understand our ordinances and their impact. Thanks again for researching this.

Any violation of this, or any city ordinance is now handled in Knoxville City Court as a civil manner with a maximum fine of $50. The City Judge does not have the authority to impose any jail time. The $500 administrative costs deal with things like codes violations or events that cost the City money in clean-up or repairs, so it really wouldn't apply to guns-in-parks. Finally, it is interesting to note that as far as we can tell nobody has ever been charged with a violation of the City guns in parks ordinance since its passage in the eighties.

Thanks again for your concern for the rights of gun owners and for taking the time to contact me.

So according to our Gov, Chilhowee park is not actually a park.

According to him, you can also not get any jail time for carrying in a city park. The worse a cop can do to you legally (short of arresting you illegally for carrying) is write you a ticket, and ask you to leave--which at that point you could get arrested for trespassing if you don't leave.

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

Okay, here's the full email after I pointed out that what I found on the city of knoxville website when it came to Chilhowee park and the punishment....

Thanks....

And that was supposedly from Bill Baby himself?

Wow, quite a comprehensive retort, and I must admit that effort sort of puts him in a new light to me. I remember your saying that he had said that Knox City Code had been changed or something, but first I've heard of the Chilhowee "non-park" status.

I think I'll email a couple of folks in city gov and see if can get an confirmation of some of that.

As you probably know, the on-line Knoxville Municipal Code has not been changed, so it's sort of hard to know who might be pulling who's chain when it comes to all this, since we are after all dealing with pols.

- OS

[Erik88]

Macville, thanks for the post. Very interesting stuff.

So just to clarify, according to the Gov, if you get caught carrying in a city park the worst a cop can do is write you a ticket for $50. Am I understanding that correctly?

Unless you refuse to leave, then you can be arrested.

[Oh Shoot]

I wonder how much weight a printed copy of this email might provide, push come to shove?

I think I'll try to find the city attorney general, if we have one.

- OS

[Erik88]

won't let me edit my last post but I missed Macville's summary at the bottom. Look like I understood it correctly.

[macville]

Thanks....

And that was supposedly from Bill Baby himself?

Wow, quite a comprehensive retort, and I must admit that effort sort of puts him in a new light to me. I remember your saying that he had said that Knox City Code had been changed or something, but first I've heard of the Chilhowee "non-park" status.

I think I'll email a couple of folks in city gov and see if can get an confirmation of some of that.

As you probably know, the on-line Knoxville Municipal Code has not been changed, so it's sort of hard to know who might be pulling who's chain when it comes to all this, since we are after all dealing with pols.

Well, he may have not written it, but it came from mayor@cityofknoxville.org and was signed Bill Haslam.

See, he said people were working on updating the code. That email is approx 1 year and 10 days old. Has anything changed? No. My issue is that I go by what I can easily find. For example, our easy access to TN code is through Michie's website. That code gets updated once, maybe twice a year (they sell TN code books to lawyers so they don't want to update it too much.) However, our state's website is good about updating things on their website about changes in the law which our reps/senators may have passed. The restaurant carry law passing was up on their website within a week, while it took months on michie. But here we have a gov website that has the law on it, but evidently has not be updated like it was supposed to. So short of taking a trip downtown, paying to park, disarming, and spending time looking at the code on paper, I don't know what's actually law.

I would guess that former Mayor's word would be worth little in court since it's not an AG's opinion. Of course, I could always just ask the Gov for a full pardon, right?

Matthew

[Glenn]

I went to the City Council meetings when they were debating whether to opt out of the guns in parks law. they decided to keep the old law instead. I thought this was close to a victory for gun owners since it is a maximum $50 fine. By keeping the old law, they satisfied the sheep who were predicting the end of humanity if someone took a legal gun to a park and made it a pretty lite punishment if you accidently forgot to disarm before entering a park and somehow got caught (not likely if concealed).

Glenn

[Oh Shoot]

I went to the City Council meetings when they were debating whether to opt out of the guns in parks law. they decided to keep the old law instead. I thought this was close to a victory for gun owners since it is a maximum $50 fine. By keeping the old law, they satisfied the sheep who were predicting the end of humanity if someone took a legal gun to a park and made it a pretty lite punishment if you accidently forgot to disarm before entering a park and somehow got caught (not likely if concealed).

Glenn

Except that the penalty is indeed a misdemeanor, with up to 30 days jail time possible, besides the fine.

Near as I can tell, Haslam's email to Macville was simply pissing on his leg and telling him it's raining, as Knoxville City Code online says it is

"Codified through Ordinance No. O-140-2010, enacted October 5, 2010", and also has not yet codified updates since that date, but none of those are parks or firearms ordinances, and none of them have modified the penalties for violation, which are:

"Any person violating any of the provisions of this general penalty article shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and conviction thereof shall result in the penalties of a monetary fine not to exceed fifty dollars ($50.00) and the repayment of administrative costs incident to the correction of the municipal violation in an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500.00) and/or by imprisonment not to exceed thirty (30) days, or both, for each separate offense. Each day any violation of this Code or of any ordinance shall continue shall constitute a separate offense."

Still, all in all, a better worst case scenario than being charged under the state statute, where besides the $500 fine, one may well lose HCP also. Won't know that till the first test case, apparently.

Can also not find any information about Chilhowee Park not being a "city park" like other expanses in the city limits which are named, umm, "(Whatever) Park".

- OS

Edited January 21, 2011 by OhShoot

[Erik88]

alas, the mystery deepens....

[Guest Charger]

Just an update:

A buddy of mine went to the fishing show at the Jacobs Building on Thursday. He open carried his XD and no one said a word. In fact, he said he went outside to smoke and talked with a Knoxville policeman for a couple minutes and he never said a word.