we need to educate the general public

[Guest jackdog]

Is it just me or do we all feel outnumbered.

As it stands today we are fighting an uphill battle when it comes to 2A

We have to contend with non factual information from the Brady bunch and groups .

Our politicians avoid 2A every chance they gey unless of course it is for more restrictions.

The news Media goes out of it's way to ignore any positive examples of 2A,

But at the same time protrays upcoming decent laws in a bad light.(Guns in Bars).

I think that the only way we have a chance is to start going to or giving town meetings on what the 2a is and why we need it.

There are so many misconceptions floating out there that when people here anything about guns they think in the negative.

Anyone have any thoughts or better still ambitions to educate the lost masses.

[towerclimber37]

I talk about firearms all the time Jackdog.

so much so that one of my brothers saw a shirt and got it for me for Christmas.

this is what it has on the back..and yep, I get folks that ask about it, and some that look at me sideways and I can almost hear them think "gun nut."

[The Rabbi]

Is it just me or do we all feel outnumbered.

As it stands today we are fighting an uphill battle when it comes to 2A

We have to contend with non factual information from the Brady bunch and groups .

Our politicians avoid 2A every chance they gey unless of course it is for more restrictions.

The news Media goes out of it's way to ignore any positive examples of 2A,

But at the same time protrays upcoming decent laws in a bad light.(Guns in Bars).

I think that the only way we have a chance is to start going to or giving town meetings on what the 2a is and why we need it.

There are so many misconceptions floating out there that when people here anything about guns they think in the negative.

Anyone have any thoughts or better still ambitions to educate the lost masses.

No, its just you.

Look at polling on the 2A and you'll see by and large the public is supportive of our positions. There are no shortage of antis, of course. But the number of rabid anti-gunners out there is minimal.

What do we have to worry about is the lack of interest in shooting. One of the biggest things keeping my customers back from buying guns (except for the wife at home) is the lack of any place to shoot. This gets worse every year.

[strickj]

One of the biggest things keeping my customers back from buying guns (except for the wife at home) is the lack of any place to shoot. This gets worse every year.

thats vewy true.one thing for me is the time it takes to shoot.my closest range is aboout 20 minutes through the worst of city traffic then i have to pay way to much to use his range.then there prentice cooper thats a good 45 minutes away,its free and ill save useally 60-70 bucks a trip but its just to far.

[Guest Len]

Some great points here. A few errata:

1. One thing I have learned over the years is not that the information coming out of the other side is erroneous, (don't get me wrong, it often is), but it is in how one interprets factual information is the key. For example, head on over to the Brady Campaign website and check out their "facts" section. Now, if we exclude the possibility that they are just outright lying (making stuff up out of thin air), then we have to give credit where credit is due and say they have facts to support their side, just as we have facts to support ours. The key to success then becomes, I think, offering people to see both sides of an issue and then make up their own mind. Right now, battles are often won in the halls of Congress based on who has the best PR or the most $. (Both allow you to "spin" your facts as you need to.) In other words, tell people "hey, look at both sides -here's the NRA website, here's the Brady website- go get educated and then let's talk. One issue with persuasion is that there is often a "boomerang effect" if one side becomes too strident, too "preachy." Undecided people will run in the other direction. Pro-2A types often come across as very strident and un-flexible. This is a war won on the individual level. One on one. Its a tactical issue as much as it is strategic. Appear rational, and you will be more persuasive.

No offense to Tower, but the t-shirt and the many others like it out there do nothing to help and everything to hurt our image. Wear them at the gun shows or around the house. I hate to admit it, but the old "I am the NRA" campaign was more along the lines of what is needed. In fact, they need to stick people like me in those ads. "Hey look at this guy! Liberal Democrat, College Professor, non-hunter, has all these college degrees from bastions of liberal, secular humanist education. And he's in the NRA, has lots of guns, loves to shoot them." A bit extreme, but the idea is: "Typical American = NRA member."

2. I agree that physical facilities are an issue. How can people be expected to buy guns if there are no places to shoot them? I see this as a BIG problem in Tennessee, a generally pro-gun state with fewer places to shoot than the population or gun attitude would suggest. Urban sprawl will only eat up more land and makes things worse. Meanwhile zoning laws further restrict possible venues. What do we do:

a) We DRAMATICALLY refocus NRA grant money flowing into TN towards range development.

We advocate DOUBLING the ammo tax with the specific requirement that the extra $ go to public range development in TN. (This may mean taking $ away from TWRA or re-focusing TWRA's mission. My thoughts on that org. are best saved for another thread.) (Or we take the current ammo tax and re-distribute where it goes.)

c) We do everything we can to support local ranges to make sure they stay viable. Maybe TGO starts a "range foundation.?"

3) Even after VA Tech, polling research suggests that most Americans "think we have about the right amount" of gun-control laws. There is no outcry for more federal intervention. Most politicians wont waste time on it then. Let's keep that fresh in our rep's minds.

4) Interest in the shooting sports and most outdoor activities are in decline partly due to electronic home entertainment technology. (Part of the reason we are getting fatter as well.) The best way to get people off the couch and into the fresh air is to have a friend ask them to do so. As Jim Scoutten says "Share your sport!" If every gun enthusiast took ONE friend to a range ONE TIME, I bet that would make a difference.

5) Finally, I suggest stepping in the other side's shoes for a minute. For example, look at the "gun show loophole." At gun shows, people can buy without an NICS check. Now, if it is part of our culture that "buying gun = having to do an NICS check" (and for better or worse, that is the way it is now), then from the other side's perspective it makes perfect sense to close the loophole. Also, if the NICS system is in place and is "instant," then how is closing the loophole an infringement on our rights? From the other side, this all makes perfect intuitive sense. Its logical to want to close the loophole so all sales are treated the same. How do we counter this argument? Actually, I think its pretty hard, but it might go something like this: "Well, if I gave you a gun for Christmas, we don't have to do a check. If I sold you one of my old guns that I don't want anymore, that's just a private sale that is no one's business. How is a gun show, swap meet, garage sale, yard sale, any different? It would be very un-American to not allow me to sell my own property or to give a gift." Seeing the argument from the other side is a great way to enhance your own position. Back in my debate days (we're talking middle school here...) one thing my teacher taught me was to always take the side OPPOSITE of what you personally believe whenever you can. You will do a better job nearly every time.

[The Rabbi]

Len,

I have looked at the Brady websites and read their "facts". Yes, they have facts. Stalin had facts. Mao had facts. If something were a complete falsehood it would be obvious to everyone.

But their "facts" are really disembodied entities with little connection to the real world or to policy. So the "fact" that X number of people are killed with handguns every year sounds dreadful. Until you realize that 10 times as many are killed with automobiles. Or until you realize that a very large number of those killed were killed as a result of drug wars between criminals.

This is the issue, that they "spin" their facts in a dishonest way.

We have this on our side sometimes as well, and I have gotten lots of grief for calling people on it. I saw posted here some "facts" about the likelihood of encountering a convicted felon, with the assumption that this would be a life threatening encounter. It makes for good business but lousy logic.

But overall the pro-gun folks have far less "spin" associated with their views and are far more committed to fairness and honesty than anything the anti side produces. So comparing the two is a real disservice.

And btw, an Oxford-educated Orthodox Jewish gun dealer is a real stereotype breaker.

[Mike.357]

I have often wondered this about Brady. What is in it for them? I mean really. why do they give a rats ass about whether there are guns or not? Originally I guess their mission was started because of the shooting. But surely they realize the spin they put on stats is not honest. I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone there actually believes in their high and mighty cause. Could they be that blind and misguided?

I believe that money is almost always the bottom line. And through gaining donations and however else they acquire funds that they are fattening their personal wallets. The bottom line being that operating an anti gun type business is how many are making their living.

am I wrong here? Is it really a high and mighty ( though misguided) cause?

[saintsfanbrian]

Just as perceived racism, inequalities etc are how Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson make their living. If everyone would take 5 minutes to think for themselves on a topic, the world would be a much better place, but with the dumbing down of America through the No Child Left Behind scenario's etc. we can't really expect people to think now can we?

[Guest Len]

But overall the pro-gun folks have far less "spin" associated with their views and are far more committed to fairness and honesty than anything the anti side produces. So comparing the two is a real disservice.

Len replies: I would suggest that the anti side says EXACTLY the same thing and with just as much conviction.

And btw, an Oxford-educated Orthodox Jewish gun dealer is a real stereotype breaker.

And Len says: Agreed! I certainly hope the liberal college prof and the Orthodox Jewish dealer can do business one day soon.

As to the reasoning behind Brady, I bet it has changed over the years. Originally, Sara Brady was reacting to what happened to her husband and Ronald Reagan. Misguided perhaps, but completely understandable given the events. As the campaign has grown over the years, it probably has lost its original seemingly noble intent and become just another way to raise money.

I know some folks who we would consider anti-gun. (They would not see themselves that way.) They have, in some cases, well-organized, rational arguments in favor of various forms of gun control (no "assault weapons," close the gun show loophole, etc.) There can be disagreement between enlightened individuals, and there will never be 100% agreement among all individuals. (Kind of one of the reasons why we have governments in the first place, no?) The point is, arcane legal or philosophical arguments over the meaning of the 2A won't be persuasive to these people. They see no inherent problem in regulating rights. What WILL win them over is putting a gun in their hand, taking them to the range, teaching them safety and then letting them pull the trigger. The first time they get one in the x-ring, you will have your convert.

Edited February 7, 2008 by Len

[The Rabbi]

Generally we agree.

But the anti side presents terrible arguments. Their basic argument is that guns are bad. More guns are more bad. Ergo less guns are less bad. And ideally no guns are no bad. So if we succeeded in getting rid of all guns there would be no gun crime at all. But in the absence of that, an incremental approach is all we can hope for.

That's true, sort of. Just like if we got rid of all automobiles there would be no auto fatalities. But just like the cars, the argument is fallacious because...well you know why.

It reminds me of the old days of SALT where nuclear bombs are bad, so fewer are good with ultimately no bombs being the best.

It didnt work then. The logic is specious, to say the least. And it doesnt work for guns now.

So point that out to people who have the unstated belief that fewer guns will mean less crime. You'd be amazed what you'll find.

And yes, the very best way is to take someone shooting. I did that with our rabbi's 60 year old mother in law and she just loved it.

[Guest jackdog]

Tower I talk to people everyday regarding 2A the right to carry etc. It amazes me as to how misinformed the general public are on these issues. Hence it is why I wrote the thread. Rabbi, I disagree with you totally about polls. Polls are a poor indicator in most cases, Because they can be weighted by how the question is framed, where the poll is conducted and how the poll is conducted. With the amount of polls that are pro 2a, please explain how it is that anti 2a politicians keep getting re-elected. Plus the fact that we are represented by the news media in a very poor light in most cases.

[The Rabbi]

Anti 2A pols like,mmm, who exactly? Last I saw, a bunch got kicked out, including a sitting speaker of the house.

As for the group still in, most of them are elected on many other issues than guns.

[Guest Len]

most of them are elected on many other issues than guns.

Very true. People who have a vested interest in one issue tend to see that issue as THE issue. For many Americans, gun control is pretty far down the list, so how a politician stands on it probably does little to help/hurt him/her in most cases. In certain close races in certain areas, sure. But by-and-large, most people vote for the candidate they "like" the most. Who do we usually "like?"

1) People that seem to look and act like us.

2) People who seem to have similar experiences to us.

3) People who we can relate to (thus the importance of good communication skills, etc.)

4) People who seem to "share our values." (Whatever the heck that means, it is a KEY question political pollsters use.)

This returns me to the point that the more "mainstream/normal/average/American" gun owners seem, the better off we'll be. A little less Charlton Heston, a little more Joe Average. (And more importantly, a little more JANE Average.) Women often control the household purse strings, decide whether there will be a gun in the house, decide whether little Johnny/Jennifer can play with toy guns, etc....

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Women often control the household purse strings, decide whether there will be a gun in the house, decide whether little Johnny/Jennifer can play with toy guns, etc....

Oh we are SO having a little talk when I get home today. I don't get to do ANY of those things!!!

[The Rabbi]

This returns me to the point that the more "mainstream/normal/average/American" gun owners seem, the better off we'll be. A little less Charlton Heston, a little more Joe Average. (And more importantly, a little more JANE Average.) Women often control the household purse strings, decide whether there will be a gun in the house, decide whether little Johnny/Jennifer can play with toy guns, etc....

And I'll add, a little more Jose Average, a little more Jamal Average, a little more Jai Average.

We live in a multicultural society. If anyone has a problem with that, either get over it or move to Hayden Lake. If we don't reach out to non-traditional gun owners, then we will become increasingly marginalized.

[Fallguy]

Women often control the household purse strings, decide whether there will be a gun in the house, decide whether little Johnny/Jennifer can play with toy guns, etc....

Oh we are SO having a little talk when I get home today. I don't get to do ANY of those things!!!

DixieGirl....trying to stay as "family friendly" as I can....it's one other thing that you control that lets you control the other....

Let us know how the talk goes....and don't let him any of use violated the man code...lol

[Fallguy]

And I'll add, a little more Jose Average, a little more Jamal Average, a little more Jai Average.

We live in a multicultural society. If anyone has a problem with that, either get over it or move to Hayden Lake. If we don't reach out to non-traditional gun owners, then we will become increasingly marginalized.

Very true!!

[towerclimber37]

Tower I talk to people everyday regarding 2A the right to carry etc. It amazes me as to how misinformed the general public are on these issues. Hence it is why I wrote the thread. Rabbi, I disagree with you totally about polls. Polls are a poor indicator in most cases, Because they can be weighted by how the question is framed, where the poll is conducted and how the poll is conducted. With the amount of polls that are pro 2a, please explain how it is that anti 2a politicians keep getting re-elected. Plus the fact that we are represented by the news media in a very poor light in most cases.

I agree about the polls.

Len, You have me confused with someone who has no education and less intelligence.

I love that shirt simply because it conforms to my views!

I spoke today to a young lady who was cashing a check for me out here in las Vegas. Turns out, she's turning 21 on Monday and wants to buy a firearm for personal protection!

I didn't spout off about men in black, or mention jackbooted thugs..or the Batf... I opined that firearms are a wonderful pastime for me and remarked that she's remarkable because she recognizes the responsibility of self defense!

I love anything that goes kaboom...I feel NO need to foist my views on others...you're all welcome to do whatever you like, believe what you like and prosecute your life in the manner that you feel best serves yourselves.

I find that simple conversation in calm tones does wonders to change folks minds...those that wish to be open minded...

the ones that are looking for an argument, well..I'll send them to rabbi .

[Mike.357]

move to Hayden Lake

speak about this to those if us who live in civilized places.

the ones that are looking for an argument, well..I'll send them to rabbi .

Classic stuff Elliott, too funny. Sorry Bill but its funny.

[towerclimber37]

Thanks! He picks on me and I take it with a grain of salt..and pick on him back. We agree on a lot of things..but boy, when we don't, well..Bill can aggrivate a mosquito!

I STILL want to see about that AR though.

[PackinMama]

This returns me to the point that the more "mainstream/normal/average/American" gun owners seem, the better off we'll be. A little less Charlton Heston, a little more Joe Average. (And more importantly, a little more JANE Average.) Women often control the household purse strings, decide whether there will be a gun in the house, decide whether little Johnny/Jennifer can play with toy guns, etc....

Len, you are absolutely right. Here's an idea that might help......I think we should have a special womens section on this forum to try to get more women into shooting and talking about gun issues. All the guys could try to get their wives/girlfriends/female friends and family members on here.....between me, TNDixieGirl, Gun&Dobes, and the rest of the girls on here, we might be able to get a few more women on our side!!! Just a thought.....maybe you could run it past Tungsten??

Oh we are SO having a little talk when I get home today. I don't get to do ANY of those things!!!

LMAO! Hey Dixie, what do you think about having a special womens section on here?

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Wouldn't bother me to have one. As long as we don't have to talk about "female problems".

I already enjoy skipping around to the different topics that interest me. Some I never even look inside, but others I view several times a day.

Guess I could say I'm ok if we do and ok if we don't. Hows' that for decisive??

[Fallguy]

Wouldn't bother me to have one. As long as we don't have to talk about "female problems".

I already enjoy skipping around to the different topics that interest me. Some I never even look inside, but others I view several times a day.

Guess I could say I'm ok if we do and ok if we don't. Hows' that for decisive??

I do the same thing, don't own any long guns, don't hunt (although I have not problem with it) so I don't hardly ever check those.

As far as being decisive....since I like you so much Dixie...I'll leave that alone...

Edited February 13, 2008 by Fallguy

[Guest jackdog]

I think a female section would be a great idea.

[DaveTN]

Is it just me or do we all feel outnumbered.

As it stands today we are fighting an uphill battle when it comes to 2A

There is no battle left to fight. You can make all the noise you want, but the 2nd has been decided.

We have to contend with non factual information from the Brady bunch

That’s true with any issue; dispute it when you see it.

Our politicians avoid 2A every chance they gey unless of course it is for more restrictions.

Then make them tell you how they feel about you being able to protect yourself against thugs and carjackers… and don’t mention the 2nd.

The news Media goes out of it's way to ignore any positive examples of 2A,

But at the same time protrays upcoming decent laws in a bad light.(Guns in Bars).

They are portraying guns in bars as the average citizens see it; it is ridiculous at face value.

Even if the proposed legislation passes the drunks are still going to be crying that they should be able to drink while they are carrying.

I think that the only way we have a chance is to start going to or giving town meetings on what the 2a is and why we need it.

Good idea. Lets a start a group that has gun rights as its agenda instead of simply an exercise to see how much money the guys that start it can make.

There are so many misconceptions floating out there that when people here anything about guns they think in the negative.

There are misconceptions on both sides. Like those here that wave the Tennessee flag and talk about how Tennessee recognizes their rights. They are 3% of the population and they have no rights. Rights are for all the people; 97% of the people in the state of Tennessee would be arrested if they carried a gun in public.

Anyone have any thoughts or better still ambitions to educate the lost masses.

Absolutely, and I will take this opportunity to share them one more time.

It depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to educate people about the second amendment; have at it. You have a mountain of roadblocks in your way.

First, the state of Tennessee does not recognize the 2nd amendment as an individual right.

The state Constitution allows you to keep arms, but give the legislature the authority to control when and where they are carried. It is a crime for the average Tennessean to bear arms in public.

Sec. 26. That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defense; but the legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.

Second here is what your Federal District Court (the 6th) thinks about the 2nd....

Their decision is final unless the SCOUTS rules otherwise.

U.S. v. Forgett 349 F.2d 601 (6th 1965)

Upholds Miller ruling regarding the National Firearms Act as not violating the Second Amendment.

Stevens v. U.S. 440 F.2d 144 (6th 1971)

Constitutional right to keep and bear arms applies only to the right of the state to maintain militia and not to individuals' rights to bear arms. Congress had authority under commerce clause to prohibit possession of firearms by convicted felons, based upon congressional finding that such possession passes threat to interstate commerce.

U.S. v. Day 476 F.2d 562 (6th 1973)

As to the alleged right to bear arms, Day's claim is meritless. There is no absolute constitutional right of an individual to possess a firearm.

U.S. v. Birmley 529 F.2d 103 (6th 1976)

Statute under which defendants were convicted of possession of unregistered firearms did not violate defendants' right to bear arms.

U.S. v. Warin 530 F.2d 103 (6th 1976)

It is clear that the Second Amendment guarantees a collective rather than an individual right. The fact that the defendant Warin, in common with all adult residents and citizens (p.41)of Ohio, is subject to enrollment in the militia of the state confers on him no right to possess the submachine gun in question.

U.S. v. Pruner 606 F.2d 871 (6th 1979)

Upholds Justice Douglas' concurring and dissenting discussion on the proposition that the purchase of guns is a constitutional right protected by the Second Amendment in Adams v. Williams.

Witherspoon v. U.S. 633 F.2d 1247 (6th 1980)

Appellant contended that the Second Amendment afforded him protection from the federal firearms statutes because he was on his own business premises. There is, of course, no such specific proviso in the Second Amendment nor is there any Supreme Court interpretation to that effect.

Now….

I do believe that I have a right to bear arms. Our founding fathers believed that and they acknowledged it in the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I do not want to hang my right to defend myself on the 2nd amendment that has no bearing on me. This battle has been fought my whole life and I do not expect it to be decided any time soon. And if it is; it will not be a decision that allows the people to carry handguns.

I talk to my friends family and co-workers about gun rights all the time; but I can make a valid argument without ever making a reference to the 2nd amendment.

Because as soon as you do; you will have your azz handed to you.