Does my HCP allow me to still carry it?

[Hippy]

If I add a forward grip to my pistol, does my TN HCP still allow me to carry it?

I understand the process required to legally add the grip, I just want to make sure I can still legally carry it with my HCP once it is done.

Specificly, the pistol is a Kel-Tec PLR-16, but I think this question should apply to any pistol that is capable of having a forward grip mounted on the factory rail.

The PLR-16 is not something I would normally carry, but I do not want to loose the option of doing so either.

If anyone here can answer this with certainty, it would help me greatly in making the decision to apply for the proper tax stamp or leave it without a forward grip.

[Fallguy]

I'm not famillar with the firearm you are talking about, but I'm 99.9% sure as long as the ATF and/or Dept of Safety considers it a "handgun" you can carry with you carry permit.

No whether the every local LEO would know that it is, is a totally different question. You may very well be detained while it is figured out.

[Reservoir Dog]

If I add a forward grip to my pistol, does my TN HCP still allow me to carry it?

I assume you mean a vertical forward grip. Correct?

If so, I do not believe you can carry that on your HCP. TCA 39-11-106(a)(16) defines a handgun as follows:

(16) “Handgun” means any firearm with a barrel length of less than twelve inches (12²) that is designed, made or adapted to be fired with one (1) hand;

If you add a vertical foregrip, you are adapting the firearm to be fired with two hands. So, I don't think it meets the definition of a handgun under the TCA.

Someone else might have some more insight into this matter.

[Guest friesepferd]

I agree with above post, it no longer meets the requirements of a 'handgun', but im no expert

[MikePapa1]

It would be interesting. Make sure you have both bail and attorney retainer money ready. You may ultimately be proved right, but I'm reasonably sure it will be at a cost.

[bigwakes]

I'm thinking the gun was still designed to be fired with one hand, even if it is modified to also be fired with two.

[daddyo]

Not even sure why someone would want to carry something like this, but to each his own.

[Reservoir Dog]

I'm thinking the gun was still designed to be fired with one hand, even if it is modified to also be fired with two.

Remember that if you add a VFG to a handgun you have to get an approved Form 1, which, in effect, means that you are manufacturing a new firearm (in this case, an AOW). So, you are designing the gun to be fired with two hands. The TCA doesn't directly address it, but under Federal law, once the modification is done pursuant to the Form 1, it would cease to be a handgun, and would become an AOW.

It definitely would not be an handgun under Federal law, and I still don't think it meets the definition under TN law.

Does anyone know if there is an AG opinion regarding this?

[Jonnin]

Its an AOW. You are best off to pay to have it labeled as a SBR since you can then add the grip without a problem, and you can add a stock if you want later.

Even though it is a pistol grip and can be fired one handed, once you put that vertical grip on you have to pay an extra tax on the gun to have it. At that point, its no longer a pistol, and whatever rules there are for carrying a gun adjust accordingly.

Your best option, IMHO, is to use a large clip (30+ rounds) as your vertical grip. Its not perfect, but the gun remains a pistol if you grip the clip, and not if you have a forend. That is how I use mine.

[Punisher84]

Do you have a trench coat to carry it under?

[Guest tnxdshooter]

Remember that if you add a VFG to a handgun you have to get an approved Form 1, which, in effect, means that you are manufacturing a new firearm (in this case, an AOW). So, you are designing the gun to be fired with two hands. The TCA doesn't directly address it, but under Federal law, once the modification is done pursuant to the Form 1, it would cease to be a handgun, and would become an AOW.

It definitely would not be an handgun under Federal law, and I still don't think it meets the definition under TN law.

Does anyone know if there is an AG opinion regarding this?

If that is the case then the ak pistol Voldemort had really was a rifle as there is no way in heck you could fire that deal with one hand. It of course did not have a verticle for end but did have a forend on it as there is no way you can fire that thing one handed accurately.

[Punisher84]

If that is the case then the ak pistol Voldemort had really was a rifle as there is no way in heck you could fire that deal with one hand. It of course did not have a verticle for end but did have a forend on it as there is no way you can fire that thing one handed accurately.

Doesn't say you have to be accurate with it lol

[Jonnin]

If that is the case then the ak pistol Voldemort had really was a rifle as there is no way in heck you could fire that deal with one hand. It of course did not have a verticle for end but did have a forend on it as there is no way you can fire that thing one handed accurately.

The PLR, before you add junk to it, is lightweight. You could shoot it about as well one handed as you could a 10 inch barrel 44 magnum revolver (which is clearly still a handgun by anyone's defination). The AR pistols are usually much heavier (and, oddly, have shorter barrels for the most part) than the PLR. It comes with a light 10 round magazine and is, out of the box, just a large pistol. The more the owner tries to make it into an AR pistol, the heavier it becomes and the less managable it becomes one handed, of course. Even with a 30 round clip and a pistol scope, I can shoot mine 2h pistol style, but I prefer to grip the clip as I said above.

Do you have a trench coat to carry it under?

Look at the review on gunblast (watch the video). I do not carry mine as a weapon, I got it for long range pistol fun at the range, nothing more. If I have to use that gun as a weapon, the law will no longer matter as society will have collapsed past caring.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Jonnin

[Reservoir Dog]

If that is the case then the ak pistol Voldemort had really was a rifle as there is no way in heck you could fire that deal with one hand.

No. It would not be a rifle. The Draco AK pistols were not manufactured with a shoulder stock, therefore it is not a rifle.

Adding a VFG to a handgun makes it an AOW (Any Other Weapon), not a rifle. At least for now, ATF doesn't care about horizontal foregrips on handguns. So, an AR/AK type pistol with only a horizontal foregrip is still a handgun.

[Punisher84]

Look at the review on gunblast (watch the video). I do not carry mine as a weapon, I got it for long range pistol fun at the range, nothing more. If I have to use that gun as a weapon, the law will no longer matter as society will have collapsed past caring.

All good and well, but the OP is talking about carrying his.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

The part about "designed to fire with one hand" is interesting, because as mentioned above, the bigger revolvers would require a very strong person to fire them one-handed.

[Fallguy]

The part about "designed to fire with one hand" is interesting, because as mentioned above, the bigger revolvers would require a very strong person to fire them one-handed.

I'm thinking of the other direction as well.

(16) “Handgun” means any firearm with a barrel length of less than twelve inches (12²) that is designed, made or adapted to be fired with one (1) hand;

The part that gets me is "adapted" to fire with one hand. So by TN law (not federal, I know) wouldn't any long gun with a barrel cut down to less than 12" and the shoulder stock cut off or removed be a pistol?

[TNRobocop]

HCP does NOT allow carry of a NFA item as a handgun.

Per the BATFE, this is from their FAQ on the legality and process of adding a VFG to a handgun and how it makes it a AOW, therefore it is no longer a handgun and would be subject to arrest for an individual carrying a handgun with a VFG and not in possession of proper paperwork from the BATFE. They could also be arrested for carrying it loaded as a "handgun" on their HCP.

And for christ's sake people, do a little research on your own on the BATFE's website before asking asinine questions.....

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Is it legal to attach a vertical fore grip to a handgun?

“Handgun†is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…†Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol†is defined as:

… a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (

a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon†(AOW) in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e) as:

… any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making†a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW†is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW†is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1 (5320.1), “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.†The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW†is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2 (5320.2). The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4 (5320.4), which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.

[Reservoir Dog]

And for christ's sake people, do a little research on your own on the BATFE's website before asking asinine questions.....

Nice. Why don't you stow the attitude. Nothing wrong with the questions being asked in this thread. Last time I checked, that is what these forums were for: to ask questions and get answers.

[TNRobocop]

Nice. Why don't you stow the attitude. Nothing wrong with the questions being asked in this thread. Last time I checked, that is what these forums were for: to ask questions and get answers.

How about you stuff your attitude as well. These questions get asked over and over again and it is a simple thing to look up the answer or do a little search here on the site to find your own answer.

Edited January 18, 2011 by TNRobocop

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

TNRoboCop pretty sure he said vertical foregrips were no-gos but that horizontal foregrips have been overlooked by the ATF...Maybe I missed something?

[Oh Shoot]

Per the BATFE, this is from their FAQ on the legality and process of adding a VFG to a handgun and how it makes it a AOW, therefore it is no longer a handgun and would be subject to arrest for an individual carrying a handgun with a VFG and not in possession of proper paperwork from the BATFE. ...

And yet, the one time this issue was actually tried in court, BATF dropped the charges after fact finding went against them:

Vertical forward grip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apparently, no one has actually ever been sent to prison, or indeed even charged, with the forward grip thing. Just stands as a BATF statement of "we be da thugs."

- OS

[Guest tngw1500se]

Depends on the judge and/or the jury. I wouldn't carry it for that reason. The last thing I want is for some prosecutor to hold up some funky looking gun and then look over at me!

[Hippy]

I assume you mean a vertical forward grip. Correct?

Yes, but also a horizontal, diagonal, or even roundish clown-nose-like one. Basicly any kind of grip that would aid in safer handling and firing of the weapon.

At least for now, ATF doesn't care about horizontal foregrips on handguns. So, an AR/AK type pistol with only a horizontal foregrip is still a handgun.

This sounds like good news. Are there any particular horizontal foregrips you can recommend that would keep my handgun a handgun?

I'm thinking the gun was still designed to be fired with one hand, even if it is modified to also be fired with two.

That seems to be a sensible way of thinking! I hope the laws regarding this are too.

It should be welcomed as a preferred safety device and not something that disqualifies a pistol from being a pistol.

Not even sure why someone would want to carry something like this, but to each his own.

I purchased the PLR-16 to enjoy on the range and do not have any plans to carry it. However, I do have the option to carry it in it's current configuration as a handgun with my TN HCP and I do not want to give up that option just to add a forward/safety grip to it. So, my question is more about can I and not should I.

Its an AOW. You are best off to pay to have it labeled as a SBR since you can then add the grip without a problem, and you can add a stock if you want later.

I agree that registering it as a SBR instead of a AOW is probably best in most situations, but I assumed the SBR designation would not be allowed under my HCP if nothing else just because it had the word "RIFLE" in it. I have/had hopes of this type of AOW being ok to carry with my HCP or even be excluded from being an AOW altogether.

And for christ's sake people, do a little research on your own on the BATFE's website before asking asinine questions.....

I did put some effort into finding the answer on my own before asking here, but didn't find an answer I thought was definitive to the specific question. I didn't intend to burden anyone here, but instead asked here because I consider this community the best collective of knowledge that related directly to my question and would most likely be easily answered without burden.

Thank you for your quick response to my asinine question.

---

Thanks everyone for your responses so far!

Are there any other common rail items (lights, lasers, scopes, holo-sights, video cameras, sling mounts, etc.) that would make a pistol no longer a pistol or illegal to carry with just a TN HCP, or is the evil forward/safety grip the only one?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Hi Hippy

Have you read this recent thread?--

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/51354-draco-pistol-legalities.html

The thread evolves and gets interesting toward the end. With information about a TN HCP holder currently in some bad legal troubles for carrying an un-modified PLR-16. The details are involved enough that it is best to just read the thread if you didn't read it yet.

There is also a legendary saga of a TN fellow Voldemort who had amazing legal adventures publicly toting an AK pistol with a valid HCP. He has apparently been banned from almost every forum in the galaxy by now, but you can google Voldemort and find hours of amusing reading. The fellow appears to be an attention-hound and self-promoter, but his experience is instructive to any who would want to HCP carry a big military-looking semi-auto pistol out in public.

I have a PLR-16 and an HCP, but have no need to go looking for new trouble to get into. I would never carry the PLR-16 in public, except at the range. Maybe it would be safe to carry one hiking way out in the woods, but I'd be worried even about that. Not necessarily that I would end up going to jail, but it would be a shame to waste a bunch of time and money defending myself in court.

Other folks are welcome to explore strange new adventures with the legal system.