Private militia legality in TN.

[JayC]

I assume you are referring to TCA §39-17-314. As I read it, it makes illegal training with the intent to commit a "civil disorder." “Civil disorder†means any public disturbance involving acts of violence by an assemblage of two (2) or more persons which acts cause an immediate danger of or result in damage or injury to the property or person of any other individual. If you don't espouse overthrow of the government, rioting or destroying the property of others, then you should be safe.

It just seems to me like a law that a> we don't need, and b> can be used to cast a wide net...

Exactly how much 'espousing' does it take to violate that law? Is a off colored joke in an FBI transcript enough?

I've read up on a number of 'militia' cases over the years, and government informants acting as agent provocateurs seems to be a common theme among virtually all the cases.

Obviously it's pretty safe since there are 2 or 3 public militias operating inside the state today... and a number of 'private' one's operating around the state if you know where to look, and none seem to be having any problems with law enforcement today. (or at least no published reports of problems).

[Oh Shoot]

OOPS!..... Double Tap.

So, best to edit second one to no content and put this post there, JFYI.

[G27]

Well, the real question is why do we need that law to begin with... it's already a crime to commit civil disorder... I'm pretty sure it's a crime to have a conspiracy to commit civil disorder... So we do we need a seperate felony for training?

BTW TN isn't the only state with such anti-militia laws... a majority of states have similar laws on the books.

There's TONS of laws that are completely unnecessary.

Looks like our resident attorney Mike agrees with my (limited) understanding of the reading.

That said, I have no desire to test it.

If there's an outbreak, mikegideon can come over and I'll supply the beer.

[mikegideon]

There's TONS of laws that are completely unnecessary.

Looks like our resident attorney Mike agrees with my (limited) understanding of the reading.

That said, I have no desire to test it.

If there's an outbreak, mikegideon can come over and I'll supply the beer.

You may need to come up here. Too easy to mistake a crackhead for a zombie in Memphis.

[bigwakes]

I assume you are referring to TCA §39-17-314. As I read it, it makes illegal training with the intent to commit a "civil disorder." “Civil disorder” means any public disturbance involving acts of violence by an assemblage of two (2) or more persons which acts cause an immediate danger of or result in damage or injury to the property or person of any other individual. If you don't espouse overthrow of the government, rioting or destroying the property of others, then you should be safe.

I tend to see the intent as a defense as well, but all it takes is one idiot in the group to say the wrong thing and now the intent is open to interpretation. Your intent can probably be scewed by any lawyer or journalist anyway.

[MikePapa1]

I tend to see the intent as a defense as well, but all it takes is one idiot in the group to say the wrong thing and now the intent is open to interpretation. Your intent can probably be scewed by any lawyer or journalist anyway.

Almost always true of every group. I mean look at this place. I've heard there are gun nuts here.

[G27]

You may need to come up here. Too easy to mistake a crackhead for a zombie in Memphis.

Not in Memphis...

But f there's an outbreak, i suspect crackheads will be fair game...

[G27]

Almost always true of every group. I mean look at this place. I've heard there are gun nuts here.

*raises hand, then yanks it down when MikePapa1 gives the angry eyebrows*

[mikegideon]

Almost always true of every group. I mean look at this place. I've heard there are gun nuts here.

You heard right

[mikegideon]

Not in Memphis...

Yep, but you're within stumblin' dstance. No worries. We have plenty of crackheads here too.

[wjh2657]

1. Uniforms. Go to a nice zip up jacket and ball cap uniform. No conflict with Federal Regs.
   
2. Label club ****** Sportsmen's club.
   
3. Forget military tactics. After 30 years active duty in the USMC, about half in combat arms, I can tell you that military tactics only work when the other guy uses them too. The minute the opposing force stops using standard tactics, yours will get you killed. (This has been backed up by conversations with my nephew Marines on leave between IRAQ and Afghanistan tours. Taliban fight dirty!)
   
4. Look more carefully at some of the better self defense school group tactics.
   
5. Read Sun Tzu, the enemy does. You will also gather a better understanding of what it takes to win a battle and not just a fight. (Tactics, which we put the greatest part of our time learning, actually play a very small part in winning. ) I wish to hell Westmoreland had read and heeded it in 1965!
   

[RobertNashville]

If I might be so bold as to suggest...

Rather than forming a militia, I think think there is a real need for a club/group/organization that exists specifically to teach on such issues as home security, home defense (the two are not the same), survival in a natural or man-made emergency, and similar techniques. I know there are plenty of courses around that do similar things but I'm thinking of an on-going organization that exists simply to be a service to its members by training them for contingencies that could reasonably be encountered in the real, everyday world and something that goes beyond "firearms".

I suspect that any "militia" group is going to come under some significant scrutiny and you would need to be constantly aware of what you are doing and the limits to what you are doing to insure that you don't EVER cross the line and get in real trouble.

[MikePapa1]

Or, Robert, they might even consider joining the State recognized militia.

[RobertNashville]

Or, Robert, they might even consider joining the State recognized militia.

As much as I'm proud to be a member of the Tennessee State Guard, they don't teach the sort of things I was referring to above (unfortunately)!

[bigwakes]

There are a couple of groups in middle TN that do just that. Log In | Facebook these guys are from ZombieSquad and are just starting the group. Before the zombie bashing begins, take a look at the site. It's about disaster prep first.....zombie slaying second. They have some good info on the main site with a local group in Nashville. A quick look at the zombie forums will turn up a couple other local groups with similar goals.

[JayC]

I'm hearing the exact opposite out of guys coming back from Afghanistan... including a couple of 5th group guys I've had the pleasure of training with in the recent past.

While traditional infantry tactics may very well be ineffective against insurgent forces, there are a number of tactics that are employed on a regular basis... even more so in an urban MOUT environment.

There are a TON of basic things the military currently teaches which are useful in a civilian environment... I'd much rather be clearing a building (my house) with somebody who had training, than to clear it by myself, or worse with somebody with no training.

I think a lot of the 'better self defense schools' are using modified military tactics, and lessons learned from the military in designing their courses (keeping in mind that we don't have ready access to high explosives, M203's and air strikes that the military often does). But the strong side, weak side method... or the first in fast method are examples that came from the military which were modified for a more LE/civilian environment.

You're right, teaching directly out of the Army field manual on platoon sized infantry tactics is a waste of time, but there are military tactics which can either me used directly or slightly modified... which work very well.

1. Uniforms. Go to a nice zip up jacket and ball cap uniform. No conflict with Federal Regs.
   
2. Label club ****** Sportsmen's club.
   
3. Forget military tactics. After 30 years active duty in the USMC, about half in combat arms, I can tell you that military tactics only work when the other guy uses them too. The minute the opposing force stops using standard tactics, yours will get you killed. (This has been backed up by conversations with my nephew Marines on leave between IRAQ and Afghanistan tours. Taliban fight dirty!)
   
4. Look more carefully at some of the better self defense school group tactics.
   
5. Read Sun Tzu, the enemy does. You will also gather a better understanding of what it takes to win a battle and not just a fight. (Tactics, which we put the greatest part of our time learning, actually play a very small part in winning. ) I wish to hell Westmoreland had read and heeded it in 1965!
   

[JayC]

If I might be so bold as to suggest...

Rather than forming a militia, I think think there is a real need for a club/group/organization that exists specifically to teach on such issues as home security, home defense (the two are not the same), survival in a natural or man-made emergency, and similar techniques. I know there are plenty of courses around that do similar things but I'm thinking of an on-going organization that exists simply to be a service to its members by training them for contingencies that could reasonably be encountered in the real, everyday world and something that goes beyond "firearms".

I suspect that any "militia" group is going to come under some significant scrutiny and you would need to be constantly aware of what you are doing and the limits to what you are doing to insure that you don't EVER cross the line and get in real trouble.

The type of groups you're suggesting already exists around the state, ask around you'll find in your part of the state. They're not a militia but just groups of guys who are practicing self defense and other skill sets, chatting about gear, etc...

And then you have 2 or 3 publicly announced militias who have been operating out in the open for years with little publicized issues.

[JayC]

There are a couple of groups in middle TN that do just that. Log In | Facebook these guys are from ZombieSquad and are just starting the group. Before the zombie bashing begins, take a look at the site. It's about disaster prep first.....zombie slaying second. They have some good info on the main site with a local group in Nashville. A quick look at the zombie forums will turn up a couple other local groups with similar goals.

There are other more serious private groups in middle TN, doing the same thing without the silly zombie stuff... I'm not saying some of the guys in this group aren't serious, but lets face it, a large chunk isn't... and separating good advice from bad in that environment is hard to do...

If you're interested in this type of activity/training, do yourself a favor and find a group who is serious and where you don't have to waste your time filtering out the non-sense of killing zombies

[bigwakes]

There are other more serious private groups in middle TN, doing the same thing without the silly zombie stuff... I'm not saying some of the guys in this group aren't serious, but lets face it, a large chunk isn't... and separating good advice from bad in that environment is hard to do...

If you're interested in this type of activity/training, do yourself a favor and find a group who is serious and where you don't have to waste your time filtering out the non-sense of killing zombies

Got some examples for us or maybe a link. I would be up for finding a more serious group that is interested in preparedness.

[Moped]

make sure that he keeps it equal opportunity .....its a law

As it should be.

[K191145]

If I might be so bold as to suggest...

Rather than forming a militia, I think think there is a real need for a club/group/organization that exists specifically to teach on such issues as home security, home defense (the two are not the same), survival in a natural or man-made emergency, and similar techniques. I know there are plenty of courses around that do similar things but I'm thinking of an on-going organization that exists simply to be a service to its members by training them for contingencies that could reasonably be encountered in the real, everyday world and something that goes beyond "firearms".

I suspect that any "militia" group is going to come under some significant scrutiny and you would need to be constantly aware of what you are doing and the limits to what you are doing to insure that you don't EVER cross the line and get in real trouble.

Call your organization a militia and chances are that soon some undercover FBI agent will want to join.

[JayC]

Got some examples for us or maybe a link. I would be up for finding a more serious group that is interested in preparedness.

This is the kinda stuff you're going to find online (From the website you linked earlier)

Serious, I'm not aware of any groups other than the 'open' militias here in the state who are publicly recruiting and have a website advertising their activities... I think that's mostly because as K191145 said, if you do sooner or later an FBI/ATF informant will stop by for a visit

Ask around... seek out those guys at your local range who seem to be there for something other than target shooting... or look for groups of guys going to the range together...

These groups tend to be very selective in who they associate with because of the issues people have expressed in this thread... all it takes is 1 bad apple to come in and cause a major stink.

bigwakes - clean out your inbox so I can send you a PM please

Edited January 20, 2011 by JayC

[Guest strelcevina]

Why o Why always has to be Big Beer belly guy talking Military tactics

Didnt he Watch ZombieLand

Rule #1 Cardio

[bigwakes]

This is the kinda stuff you're going to find online (From the website you linked earlier)

Yeah, crazies are everywhere these days. I don't think that guy was joking. I think he is really in his front yard right now waiting for some zombies to show up.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I'm an old fat guy uninterested in military training who doesn't know much of anything. Just a question.

There have been statements that anything called militia is likely to get close examination. That uniforms are likely illegal and aggressive military tactics training (as opposed to defense training) is likely illegal.

But from watching youtube videos, apparently the more "serious" paintball and airsoft guys practice military aggressive tactics and often wear uniforms. Often they appear to be young fit fellows rather than old pot-bellied wanna-be soldiers toting AR-15's out in the woods. They play the military games even in politically-correct places such as Canada.

Do the feds ever keep an eye on paintball and airsoft fellas? If not, maybe a "militia" would be a harmless paintball club which practices everything except live ammo in group exercises? They leave the AR-15's at home? If they ever do some kind of "real" action, just carry the real guns rather than the paintball guns?

Apologies if that is a really dumb question. Am not advocating or challenging anything. Just wondering why the paintball stuff gets ignored by feds. If in fact they are ignored by the feds.