What would you change about TN regs?

[Plain Old Dave]

How about only belted magnums for deer hunting? Do you think the .25/06 is too light for deer? I think one of the best things TWRA ever did was allow .22 centerfires for deer. For one I can legally carry my .223 during deer season when I am really coyote hunting and be legal. I have killed several deer with .223 and have never had one take a step but I have had them run a little ways with a .300 mag (I will admit the shot placement wasn't the same) I have seen LOTS of big hogs killed in Tx with .223. It is plenty enough gun for any whitetail deer. It's WHERE you shoot them not WHAT you shoot them with.

I will amend; .25 caliber or greater for big game. That gives .25-06, .25-35, and .250-3000, 3 calibers with 150+ years of deerkilling experience. Lot of deer wounded and r-u-n-n-o-f-t with 6mms and .243s, never mind the completely worthless .223/5.56. Ever hear of hydraulic deflection?

Amendments on Traditional Seasons:

-Rifle: Modern reproductions of arms manufactured before 1898 in calibers introduced before 1898 with iron sights would be permissible; A new Winchester 1895 (or an 1980s vintage Browning 1895) in .30-40 would be legal, while a .270 or .30-06 would not

-Archery: Traditional broadheads may either be hand-knapped from flint or purchased through places found in Traditional Bowhunter magazine.

Licensure:

I am aware of the provision in TN law for those with valid leave papers; what I propose is a discounted rate for servicemembers (including Guard and Reserve) with a valid ID card not on official leave.

Private property: I see TWRA meddling on what a landowner does on their own land as a property rights issue; if a hunter is hunting on public land or a 3d party's land (whether corporate or private) that would be the only way I would not have an issue with outside interference.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Plain Old Dave

[Guest BigJ45]

Dave, You would allow the .25-35 but not the .240 Weatherby, that makes no sense. I don't care if the law says everybody has to hunt 100 lb whitetails with a .505 Gibbs, deer will still r-u-n-n-o-f-t. Bigger bullets are no replacement for poor marksmanship. If anything bigger bullets cause poor marksmanship. In the last 5 years I have kiiled deer with .223, .220 swift, 6mm Rem Ackley Improved, .257 Roberts, .25-06, .280 Rem Ackley Improved, 30 Gov't 1906, .300 H&H,.35 Whelen and probably some I have forgotten about. The .22 LR and 30/30 have probably killed more deer in Tn than any other cartridge on the planet and I would ten to one rather have a .223 than a 30/30. I know the rifle that I use all summer to kill groundhogs out to 3 and 400 yds is capable of placing a clean one shot kill on a deer come fall. I shot a average size doe at a laser ranged 140 yds with a 65gr game king last year through both shoulders and it left a 1.5" exit wound. Her only movement after the shot was gravity. I don't think my 35 Whelen could have anchored her any faster. I do agree 100% on the property owners rights though. What I do on my property is my business and not TWRA's.

Edited February 1, 2011 by BigJ45

[DaveS]

Traditional Muzzleloader: NO SCOPES ALLOWED, must be "old style" sidelock weapons of either cap or flint. Same with muzzloading pistols and revolvers. Move modern inlines into the same season as modern gun.

[Guest GunTroll]

On the caliber thing.....Just cause I wouldn't use it (223 rem for large game) doesn't mean others shouldn't be allowed to because of my opinion. And in fact, I suspect most of the regs are written /enforced just like that... based off of someones opinions. If the TWRA can't back up reasons for some of the regs with logic (whether I agree or not) then the regs are somewhat worthless to me (albeit I'll still abide).

My purpose in starting this thread was [for me] to loosen regs that are illogical and overly restrictive. I'm going the libertarian approach on hunting if that makes any sense. Some of the suggestions mentioned here IMO are leaning restrictive without reason other than "thats the way I would like it to be" IE the whole primitive weapon thing. Sorry Dave . No one is stopping anyone from using that equipment. But if I had a fancy state of the art muzzle loader that I want to use and some reg prevented me....I would be pissed that I'm not being afforded the same opportunity others are taking advantage of, without me having to go out and spend more money on more hunting equipment.

Edited January 31, 2011 by GunTroll

[Plain Old Dave]

On the caliber thing.....Just cause I wouldn't use it (223 rem for large game) doesn't mean others shouldn't be allowed to because of my opinion. And in fact, I suspect most of the regs are written /enforced just like that... based off of someones opinions.

The .223/5.56's inability to stop human or larger critters is heavily documented. Fine varmint round, but not enough for medium/large game.

IE the whole primitive weapon thing. Sorry Dave . No one is stopping anyone from using that equipment.

The whole point of having different seasons (Archery/Muzzleloader/Rifle) is to decrease challenge to those that voluntarily take up a more challenging method of game harvesting; all I propose is a creative way to allow those that voluntarily take up a more challenging method of hunting a little better crack; a longbow hunter could get in the woods 3 days before a compound bowhunter.

But if I had a fancy state of the art muzzle loader that I want to use and some reg prevented me....I would be pissed that I'm not being afforded the same opportunity others are taking advantage of, without me having to go out and spend more money on more hunting equipment.

To my mind, and a lot of others too, the "state of the art muzzleloader" is cheating; You're hunting with a .30-06 that happens to load from the front during a season designed to offset the challenge of a man that has a flintlock or percussion sidelock and preventing him from seeing game. Inlines should be considered in the same class as standard cartridge rifles.

[ShaunM]

I still disagree with you on the 223 or 243 not being an effective round. Like I said I have taken deer with both rounds and I have never had an issue. I will continue to use them both. If you think muzzleloaders should be in the rifle class then they should have a spear season. I think if the cave men had a muzzleloader or rifle they would have used it. I don't muzzleloader hunt that often but I don't want to see it die off. I just don't see how it's cheating and if it is, you should sell all of your weapons and kill with your bare hands.

[Guest BigJ45]

To my mind, and a lot of others too, the "state of the art muzzleloader" is cheating; You're hunting with a .30-06 that happens to load from the front during a season designed to offset the challenge of a man that has a flintlock or percussion sidelock and preventing him from seeing game. Inlines should be considered in the same class as standard cartridge rifles.

I think TWRA should adopt the same laws as Mississippi on this subject.

PRIMITIVE WEAPONS

"Primitive firearms" for the purpose of hunting deer, are defined as single or double barreled muzzle-loading rifles of at least .38 caliber; single shot, breech loading, cartridge rifles (.35 caliber or larger) and replicas, reproductions or reintroductions of those type rifles; and single or double-barreled muzzle-loading, shotguns with single ball or slug. All muzzle-loading Primitive Firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with either percussion caps or #209 shotgun primers or flintlock ignition. Breech loading single shot rifles must have exposed hammers and use metallic cartridges. Cartridges may be loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. Scopes of any magnification are allowed on primitive weapons.

[Guest GunTroll]

The .223/5.56's inability to stop human or larger critters is heavily documented. Fine varmint round, but not enough for medium/large game.

If referring to human targets I would guess your referencing our modern conflicts and the soldiers gripe with the stopping power or lack there of. Perhaps you are/were a soldier. I don't know and don't care. I suspect your real gripe is with bullet construction. FMJ is "humane" on personal. Shoot a [man] with a lead core or any of the more modern more fragment-able bullets and you got a mess. With the selection of .224 diameter bullets out there and with a little shoot placement you got yourself a lethal cartridge. All that being said....I won't use them but why stop others. FMJ isn't allowed in the deer woods anyways so it shouldn't be a problem. Whats the documentation you reference?

The whole point of having different seasons (Archery/Muzzleloader/Rifle) is to decrease challenge to those that voluntarily take up a more challenging method of game harvesting; all I propose is a creative way to allow those that voluntarily take up a more challenging method of hunting a little better crack; a longbow hunter could get in the woods 3 days before a compound bowhunter.

I got no problem with different season. Didn't say I did. I just don't think we (TN) need sub-weapon seasons within the different weapon seasons that we already have. Not sure if that came out right? Again no one is stopping you from using sticks and stones (?) but why stop others from using more modern traditional weapons? Whats three days of wearing a loin clothe and chucking twigs with sharp rocks attached gonna give you anyways?

To my mind, and a lot of others too, the "state of the art muzzleloader" is cheating; You're hunting with a .30-06 that happens to load from the front during a season designed to offset the challenge of a man that has a flintlock or percussion sidelock and preventing him from seeing game. Inlines should be considered in the same class as standard cartridge rifles.

Build a fence around your land and do as you please. No one is stopping you from enjoying traditional weapons. When center fire rifle season opens, to my knowledge you can still take out your side lock right? "Cheating" are you serous? Come on now you don't really believe that. You seem to want to tighten the regs, not loosen them. If you want to see the license fees continue to climb....keep supporting restrictive regs and or encourage more restrictive new ones. When the rules are illogical, hunters who can afford to leave the state and seek a hunt that they choose will. And that creates a loss for TWRA. And they need your fees to cut those checks. Less incoming fee revenue = higher license fees to offset the loss of a license sale.

Edited February 1, 2011 by GunTroll

[TresMon]

Thoughts in order:

4) Move minimum caliber for rifle season to .26. Sorry, a 6mm or smaller just isn't enough gun for big game

WHAT? Is that the admission line of the "I can't shoot Anonymus" program?

As far as the deer I have taken with rifles I have never killed one with bigger than a .243 that I can remember.

I'm 6 for 6 with my .223 AR-15. 6 single shots for 6 dead deer. The furthest a deer has ran was 20 yards and folded with no so much as another quiver, and that was when my AR was wearing but a 16" barrel (at the time) and the shot was made at 413 lazed yards before a divorced witness. As in we were to divorce a year later.

No sir, what needs to be implemented is that to buy a hunting license you must qualify at the standard range of the weapon you intend to pursue game with as done overseas in various places.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

WHAT? Is that the admission line of the "I can't shoot Anonymus" program?

As far as the deer I have taken with rifles I have never killed one with bigger than a .243 that I can remember.

I'm 6 for 6 with my .223 AR-15. 6 single shots for 6 dead deer. The furthest a deer has ran was 20 yards and folded with no so much as another quiver, and that was when my AR was wearing but a 16" barrel (at the time) and the shot was made at 413 lazed yards before a divorced witness. As in we were to divorce a year later.

No sir, what needs to be implemented is that to buy a hunting license you must qualify at the standard range of the weapon you intend to pursue game with as done overseas in various places.

AMEN!

[TresMon]

I suspect your real gripe is with bullet construction. FMJ is "humane" on personal. Shoot a [man] with a lead core or any of the more modern more fragment-able bullets and you got a mess. With the selection of .224 diameter bullets out there and with a little shoot placement you got yourself a lethal cartridge. All that being said....I won't use them but why stop others. FMJ isn't allowed in the deer woods anyways so it shouldn't be a problem. Whats the documentation you reference?

Exactly. People who purchase ammo often pick the WORST bullet for the task. Example, doesn't a "V-MAX" sound so much better than an old dated "PSP" ? (pointed soft point)

Yet a v-max is a good varmint bullet and poor deer bullet. A old PSP is a fine deer bullet. Shot placement is every hunters moral & ethical requirement and bullet SELECTION follows secondly, not cartridge selection. The collective minds of the ballisiticians @ Seirra bullets say 700 ft.lb. of energy is a good rule of thumb to ethically kill deer. A .223 has that at 300 yards at least. This whole plague of uneducated hunters buying ammo by no other means than ultra flashy Madison avenue marketing and getting the wrong bullet (as in the pointy part of the overall assembly of a loaded round of ammo) in the otherwise correct cartridge that fits their rifles chamber is the reason I wrote my article. http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/hunting/52531-good-humored-look-terminal-ballistics-bullet-selection.html

[Plain Old Dave]

For every "one shot, didn't go more than 20 years" deer killed with a 6mm/.243 or smaller, there are probably 10-15 that ran off to never be found. As Uncle Elmer said well before WW2, bigger heavier bullets kill better than smaller lighter ones. Can you kill a deer with a .270? Sure, plenty of people have. Can you kill a deer with a .22? With shot placement, sure: most poachers use .22LR so it certainly is possible. BUT

The more under .30 caliber you get, the less reliable a killer a caliber is.

Unless a man is the late lamented Harold West (the best rifle shot I ever knew) or Alvin York, he is well advised to stay with a reliable killer like a .30-30, .30-40, .30/06, .300 Savage or something of that sort.

Bottom line: Minimum calibers for medium game: .25 for fixed cartridges, .40 for muzzleloaders.

[TresMon]

For every "one shot, didn't go more than 20 years" deer killed with a 6mm/.243 or smaller, there are probably 10-15 that ran off to never be found. As Uncle Elmer said well before WW2, bigger heavier bullets kill better than smaller lighter ones. Can you kill a deer with a .270? Sure, plenty of people have. Can you kill a deer with a .22? With shot placement, sure: most poachers use .22LR so it certainly is possible. BUT

The more under .30 caliber you get, the less reliable a killer a caliber is.

Unless a man is the late lamented Harold West (the best rifle shot I ever knew) or Alvin York, he is well advised to stay with a reliable killer like a .30-30, .30-40, .30/06, .300 Savage or something of that sort.

Bottom line: Minimum calibers for medium game: .25 for fixed cartridges, .40 for muzzleloaders.

By your own logic you present a skewed and just plain wrong statistical analysis. Do not PROPAGANDIZE impressionable readers here & elsewhere. Like BigJ said earlier more legally killed deer have been killed on this planet with a 30-30 rifle than any others, and per your logic & proposed 25cal minimum req. satisfy's moral obligation of "sufficient kill power." But from the same stats I assure you that more deer, thousands & thousands more deer have ran off, suffered & died and been unrecovered from larger than 25 cal arms than have from sub 25 cal arms.

Your propaganda is like that that ployed against the motorcycle industry. The blanket statement is made: "Motorcycles kill more people than automobiles do." The sheeple that make up population that don't stop to think for themselves merely nod and trudge onwards following the furry well dingle'd rectum in front of them and go on hoping the population is headed in the right direction. However the people that think for themselves note that on the national Dept. of Trans yearly report that thousands and thousands more people die in automobiles than motorcycles each year. I hate propaganda.

[Guest GunTroll]

For every "one shot, didn't go more than 20 years" deer killed with a 6mm/.243 or smaller, there are probably 10-15 that ran off to never be found. As Uncle Elmer said well before WW2, bigger heavier bullets kill better than smaller lighter ones. Can you kill a deer with a .270? Sure, plenty of people have. Can you kill a deer with a .22? With shot placement, sure: most poachers use .22LR so it certainly is possible. BUT

The more under .30 caliber you get, the less reliable a killer a caliber is.

Unless a man is the late lamented Harold West (the best rifle shot I ever knew) or Alvin York, he is well advised to stay with a reliable killer like a .30-30, .30-40, .30/06, .300 Savage or something of that sort.

Bottom line: Minimum calibers for medium game: .25 for fixed cartridges, .40 for muzzleloaders.

back on topic now.

[ShaunM]

Let's all settle down (myself included). Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and has the right to say what they want to change. Some things I agree on and some things I don't. Let's just play nice.

[DaveS]

If baiting for "yotes" were allowed, what would you consider a "legal" bait. Using any wild animal or carcus thereof would only lead to the wrongful killing of wildlife and possably domestic animals. What say ye?

[Guest adamoxtwo]

hmmmmmmm.......that's tricky. Using the remains of a deer after a successful harvest (or any other for that matter) could be used, but I would say that if it were legal someone would make an artificial feed. Road Kill perhaps?

[Guest BigJ45]

For every "one shot, didn't go more than 20 years" deer killed with a 6mm/.243 or smaller, there are probably 10-15 that ran off to never be found. As Uncle Elmer said well before WW2, bigger heavier bullets kill better than smaller lighter ones. Can you kill a deer with a .270? Sure, plenty of people have. Can you kill a deer with a .22? With shot placement, sure: most poachers use .22LR so it certainly is possible. BUT

The more under .30 caliber you get, the less reliable a killer a caliber is.

Unless a man is the late lamented Harold West (the best rifle shot I ever knew) or Alvin York, he is well advised to stay with a reliable killer like a .30-30, .30-40, .30/06, .300 Savage or something of that sort.

Bottom line: Minimum calibers for medium game: .25 for fixed cartridges, .40 for muzzleloaders.

Before WWII ol' Elmer didn't have well constructed bullets to do the job for him and found it best to start with a bullet that is roughly the size of a modern bullet that has already expanded to do the job. I feel the 30 Gov't 1906 to be the finest all around hunting cartridge in the world and out of the dozens of hunting rifles I own my pre 64 70 would without a doubt be my favorite, but it is WAY more gun than is needed on any animal that walks in Tn (including elk). To say that the 30/30 or .300 Savage is a reliable killer but the .243 isn't is shows that you really have no idea what you are talking about anyway. The reason deer were killed with these useless cartridges was it was all people had to work with 100 years ago, any hunter who chooses to hunt with these today stand more of a chance wounding deer that those who shoot a .24 caliber round with a well constructed bullet simply because the smaller guns will be accurate enough to place the bullet where it needs to be.

[Guest GunTroll]

If baiting for "yotes" were allowed, what would you consider a "legal" bait. Using any wild animal or carcus thereof would only lead to the wrongful killing of wildlife and possably domestic animals. What say ye?

I hunted over a dozen or so dead cows just the other day. Obviously I was not downwind.. No luck on that set but there is a well established trail leading into the sink hole that those dead cows are in.

I would think rotten meat would be a good bait .

[ShaunM]

They actually make a coyote bait that comes in a bag. Looks like one of those bags for deer attractants. Wildgame innovations makes it, it's called predator pile. I've never used it just seen it in a magazine.

[ShaunM]

If baiting for "yotes" were allowed, what would you consider a "legal" bait. Using any wild animal or carcus thereof would only lead to the wrongful killing of wildlife and possably domestic animals. What say ye?

I agree I wouldn't just kill something I could eat to use for bait only.

[TresMon]

Yeah same here. I kill to eat. I would not kill groceries just to predator hunt. However I read about wildlife biologist who killed a mated pair of coyotes and dug up their den. They discovered 14 fawn deer skulls in the den. 14 fawns dead from just two 'yotes. I will kill grocery killers to save on the grocery population. It's known far & wide that fawn deer & Turk Polts are some of the favorite yote foods. Just so happens to be the most popular hunted groceries that walk our woods.

[R_Bert]

I am almost afraid to toss this one out....

TN allows any center fire handgun for big game *if* the barrel is 4" or over.

I am not sure, but I think that in some gun calibers (almost anything, but certainly .357 Mag & up ?) would be generally be more effective than 4" in .25ACP for example.

So, what wording to support, for example Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskans, etc. could be suggested (without screwing up the regs for up high powered .22 & .25 rifle calibers in a Contender or Encore pistol, etc.)?

Second question, how was 4" limit chosen ?

Bert

[Guest rhendrix]

1. Allow centerfire rifle use at ALL times of the year for Coyote.

2. DO NOT allow night hunting for any species.

3. Relaxe the regulations on Feral Hog (Sus Scrofa ).

4. Stop closing deer hunting and small game hunting on WMA's when Duck season starts.

5. Stop allowing hunting on certain days on WMA's. Some people work and the WMA's are closed on their off days.

6. I could go on and on and on and on..........

I agree with all you said and would like to add one. I would like to see hunting bears over bait legal. It is in many states. I would rather see baiting than I had the use of dogs. I can just not see the sport in releasiing a bunch of dogs and letting them tree a bear so you can shoot it out of the tree. That is just not my idea of hunting. I think it would be a lot more sportsmanlike to hunt over bait.

[Guest rhendrix]

I don't think "centerfire rifle" should be legal to hunt big game. It should be at least anything above 24 caliber and I am not so sure that this is not too small. I just don't see shooting deer and black bear with a Ruger .204 or even a .223. These guns just don't pack enough mussle to humanely kill a deer or bear.