1911 Extraction

[StPatrick]

I'm starting to see some weak and erratic extraction, so it's time to replace my (internal) extractor. Two questions for those with actual firsthand knowledge:

1. What replacement extractors have worked well for you?

2. Is the replacement something that an amateur with decent mechanical inclinations can do themselves, and do as well as a pro?

I'm not sure if it matters, but the gun in question is a commander length Kimber.

Thanks!

[Guest CK1]

If it's a .45 than you can just go with an Ed Brown which isn't very expensive.

If it's in 9mm, .40, or .38 super you might aswell save yourself some grief and just go for an Aftec, it'll cost you $75 but it'll work...

You can do both/either yourself no problem, Bob from Brazo's Customs has some excellent articles floating around out there about working on 1911's (one on tuning extractors specifically) that are easy to follow.

I've been learning lots about working on 1911's as of late, you'd be surprised how much is out there between the forums and YouTube.

Good luck.

Edited January 8, 2011 by CK1

[deerslayer]

How many rounds through the gun? What are the symptoms? Some may mistake a worn-out recoil spring as an extractor problem.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I use Ed Brown extractors with great success. They require very little if any work to tweak them.

Dolomite

[Lumber_Jack]

EGW makes a great extractor but will require a little more fitting than the Ed Brown possibly. but there are no garuntees as you probably know

[StPatrick]

How many rounds through the gun?

Between myself and the original owner, approximately 1k.

What are the symptoms?

Rounds frequently eject weakly, straight up, instead of briskly and off to the side, like God and JMB intended. I've had more than a few land pieces of spent brass land on my hat. Along with that, there have been a few failures to feed / return fully to battery (WWB FMJ, not a feed ramp issue). I've already ruled out magazine spring or follower issues, so that leaves the recoil spring or the extractor. Replacement springs are on the way from Wolff, and if they don't fix the issues, I'll need to replace the extractor. Based on what others have posted so far, Ed Brown is leading that race, and it looks like I'll be able to do it myself.

Edited January 9, 2011 by StPatrick

[Dolomite_supafly]

ED BROWN : Match Extractor, Series 70, .45 ACP (087-130-100) - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools

This is the one I use and it is great. It is a very tight fit but that allows the extractor to clock correctly. A loose fitting extractor will turn and cause problems as well.

Dolomite

[timcalhoun]

like others have said erratic ejection will often point to the extractor. Clocking being a pretty decent guess, but so is a simple tension problem. The extractor should never be able to clock at all, and if it does you need to fit a new firing pin stop. An aftec extractor should never clock either, but you need to break the corners of the firing pin stop so that the aftec can hinge freely on the stop. That will allow the spring to do their job.

Anyone can put an extractor in a 1911 and tune it. It just takes a little effort, but it is really no big deal. Just make sure that when you put the new one in, it does not clock either. Sometimes you have to fit a new FP stop when putting in a new extractor.

Also, many times the strange ejection pattern comes from the spent brass hitting the slide (common on shorter 1911's). If that is the case and the extractor is tuned correctly and is not clocking you will need to angle the ejector. You can really influence the ejection pattern with the shape of the ejector.

Feel free to PM me if I can be of help since we are not far from each other.

[StPatrick]

Is there any real advantage to upgrading to one of the Ed Brown "hardcore" parts? I'm a bit skeptical on whether they provide any real value.

[Lumber_Jack]

After reading Tim's post, I don't think you need to replace you extractor as much as your firing pin stop. You said "starting to see" does that mean it was fine at first, or has done this occasionally all along? Maybe the clocking is getting worse over time. I'd try fitting a new FPS like Tim said, I did it so that means anyone can . But to your question if you do replace your extractor, then yes it's probably worth it.

This one http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=23561/Product/1911_AUTO_HEAVY_DUTY_EXTRACTOR

I like the round corners to reduce failure, should last forever

Edited January 9, 2011 by Lumber_Jack

[timcalhoun]

I think they are a really good extractors and will give great service (Ed Browns' that is). I like EGW probably better.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Along with the Ed Brown extractor I posted before I also installed this Ed Brown FP stop:

ED BROWN : Firing Pin Stop, Series 70, SS (087-000-036) - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools

I have zero clocking issues when I used both. The FP stop is a snug fit in the slide and the extractor is a snug fit in the FP stop. I easily have 400 rounds through the gun since the extractor install and probably 150 since the FP stop install. I didn't need to replace the FP stop but I did as part of making sure all parts are not MIM parts.

Dolomite

[StPatrick]

Thanks for the FP stop info. I did a basic extractor tension check, and it looks fine. If the new recoil spring doesn't do the job, that is something I can consider when troubleshooting further.

As posted earlier, I doubt that the extractor is the issue, but I wanted to be prepared if it was.

Also, could someone provide a good explanation of "clocking"? I can't answer some of the questions posed until I understand the context.

[StPatrick]

As long you all are helping answer my questions, here's another:

Why does Kimber specify a 22lb spring in commander sized guns, while other mfgs run lighter?

[USMCJG]

Also, could someone provide a good explanation of "clocking"? I can't answer some of the questions posed until I understand the context.

Clocking is caused by a firing pin stop not making solid, flush contact with the groove in the extractor, allowing the extractor to turn slightly. If the extractor is able to twist with the firing pin stop installed, then it's clocking. Even a very small amount of clocking will cause erratic ejection. I don't know if that's a good explanation or not, but it's the best I can do.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Scroll down to the extractor portion.

1911 Reliability Secrets

[timcalhoun]

As long you all are helping answer my questions, here's another:

Why does Kimber specify a 22lb spring in commander sized guns, while other mfgs run lighter?

The Kimber 4" uses an officers model spring not a commander recoil spring so that is the reason for the extra lbs.

In my experience a new spring can alleviate the symptoms sometimes, but a gun that is set up right should only fling brass farther as the recoil spring gets weaker. So you still have the problem but the heavier recoil spring changes the pulse enough to help the problem.

[StPatrick]

Tim,

Any thoughts as to why I'm experiencing weak ejections, then? I'm convinced that the recoil spring must be replaced (Kimber recommends every 800 rounds, and I'm a bit past that), but if it's not the spring, mags, or ammo (all ruled out), is it definitely the extractor, or is there something else to be considered?

Thanks,

Patrick

[timcalhoun]

Tim,

Any thoughts as to why I'm experiencing weak ejections, then? I'm convinced that the recoil spring must be replaced (Kimber recommends every 800 rounds, and I'm a bit past that), but if it's not the spring, mags, or ammo (all ruled out), is it definitely the extractor, or is there something else to be considered?

Thanks,

Patrick

Light loads will do that. Or limp wristing.

If you are certain the extractor has enough tension on it, are you sure the hook on the extractor is in good shape?

Bent/broken ejector can also cause weirdness like this.

[StPatrick]

Update: I replaced the recoil spring with the Wolff "Improved" 22lb spring for Kimber Commander-sized 1911s. Upon removing the original and comparing with the new Wolff spring, it was pretty clear I had an issue with the factory spring, as it was nearly an inch shorter than the Wolff.

I ran several mags of WWB (same ammo that was not returning to battery originally) through the gun on Saturday, and the failures to return to battery were gone. However, I still had a couple spent casings land on my head, so there's potentially another issue in play.

So - I've still got a weak extraction issue, even though feeding is back to normal. Since it's erratic, I'm going to assume the ejector is fine. Is the next logical step replacement of the extractor? As noted before, tension is good, in that a chambered round can be pulled all the way back to the ejector, and will not slip or "droop". Is it possible the extractor tension is too high? There are a lot of potential variables to go through, so if you have some insight, drop it on me.

Thanks, gents.

[Lumber_Jack]

I would say it's the aforementioned 'clocking' of the extractor. As Tim said the "casing to the head" can be from limp wristing so assuming you have a firm grip it's probably clocking. I would fit a new firing pin stop and see if you have any results. The part is cheap and easy to fit. If you need specific instructions on how to fit the part i can help or PM timcalhoun he has proven very knowledgeable on 1911 repair.

[Dolomite_supafly]

With it erractically dumping casings on your head it would seem it would be a clocking issue. Most times the extractor is close enough to keep the casings off of your head but every now and then it gets too far out of spec.

With that being said I would replace the firing pin stop first and see how it interacts with your current extractor. It should not twist at all. Now with the new firing pin stop in place if the extractor still clocks I would replace the extractor. Make sure that you get the same brand firing pin stop and extractor. This will help make it a trouble free replacement as some brands don't play well with others. The parts in my previous posts fit together very well and the extractor does not clock at all.

The parts also were very tight fitting yet dropped in without any type of fitting.

I realize you are a bit of a distance from Knoxville but if you find yourself up here you are more than welcome to stop by to shoot or fit the parts.

Dolomite

[timcalhoun]

Update: I replaced the recoil spring with the Wolff "Improved" 22lb spring for Kimber Commander-sized 1911s. Upon removing the original and comparing with the new Wolff spring, it was pretty clear I had an issue with the factory spring, as it was nearly an inch shorter than the Wolff.

I ran several mags of WWB (same ammo that was not returning to battery originally) through the gun on Saturday, and the failures to return to battery were gone. However, I still had a couple spent casings land on my head, so there's potentially another issue in play.

So - I've still got a weak extraction issue, even though feeding is back to normal. Since it's erratic, I'm going to assume the ejector is fine. Is the next logical step replacement of the extractor? As noted before, tension is good, in that a chambered round can be pulled all the way back to the ejector, and will not slip or "droop". Is it possible the extractor tension is too high? There are a lot of potential variables to go through, so if you have some insight, drop it on me.

Thanks, gents.

Somehow I missed that you were having a return to battery issue as well. Sorry. So yes, too much tension on the extractor could conceivably give you weird/weak ejection issues as well as the return to battery issue you had. You can check for too much tension by taking the slide off and rolling a round up under the extractor and see how much resistance there is. It's a feel thing and I of course would need to have it in my hands to tell.

Bottom line you need to make sure:

1. the extractor hook is in good shape.

2. the tension on the extractor is right (that includes too much)

3. the extractor is not clocking

If all of those are good then I would go on to the ejector. I would look for brass marks on the gun since those can tell you what to do with the ejector. You can shape the face of the ejector to point the cases in the desired direction. Depending on what happens as I watch the cases I may fit a longer ejector as well. I would look to see where on the ejector the case is hitting as well. But again, none of this would be done until I was sure of 1, 2, and 3.

Edited January 20, 2011 by timcalhoun