Gun pointed at you...do you shoot?

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

What always amazes me about these types of threads is that many participants seem to be so hostile against anyone who answers with something other than the following:

"Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

"I'm not gonna die on my knees."

"Action is faster than reaction."

"Move, shoot, live!"

You get the idea.

I don't think anyone here is saying "leave the gun in the holster and wait to die." Instead, some are saying that you best reaction may be to comply, even for a few seconds, to wait for a better opportunity that will potentially lead to less shooting and collateral damage. I was thinking about this topic during dinner with my family. As I was sitting (facing the door because I'm an internet badass), I thought about what would happen if a BG walked in with a gun. If I rose from the table and immediately started shooting, I would be drawing fire towards my wife and two small children (one sitting in a booster and the other in a high chair.) That's pretty stupid. Instead, I could pretend to comply, move away from my family and THEN engage the bg when the opportunity presented itself. Sure seems a lot smarter than drawing fire towards confined children, but some here would label me a coward and tell me to stop carrying my gun.

[Punisher84]

What always amazes me about these types of threads is that many participants seem to be so hostile against anyone who answers with something other than the following:

"Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

"I'm not gonna die on my knees."

"Action is faster than reaction."

"Move, shoot, live!"

You get the idea.

I don't think anyone here is saying "leave the gun in the holster and wait to die." Instead, some are saying that you best reaction may be to comply, even for a few seconds, to wait for a better opportunity that will potentially lead to less shooting and collateral damage. I was thinking about this topic during dinner with my family. As I was sitting (facing the door because I'm an internet badass), I thought about what would happen if a BG walked in with a gun. If I rose from the table and immediately started shooting, I would be drawing fire towards my wife and two small children (one sitting in a booster and the other in a high chair.) That's pretty stupid. Instead, I could pretend to comply, move away from my family and THEN engage the bg when the opportunity presented itself. Sure seems a lot smarter than drawing fire towards confined children, but some here would label me a coward and tell me to stop carrying my gun.

Do you just read into things what you will or what? Your cute little jabs and observances of what you THINK people are trying to say are ridiculous. Nobody has advocated anything like what you just posted. You want to act like an arrogant ass and talk yourself up like you know alot, but in reality you just want to pick an argument by being all cutesy. Why don't you put on your big boy pants and have an intelligent debate with the rest of us? Or would you prefer to just keep on acting like a third grader trading playground insults?

[eapking]

WWPO'HD??? Dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge! The five D's of dodgeball... words to live by. Move your ass!

If you can dodge a bullet, you can dodge a ball.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Do you just read into things what you will or what? Your cute little jabs and observances of what you THINK people are trying to say are ridiculous. Nobody has advocated anything like what you just posted. You want to act like an arrogant ass and talk yourself up like you know alot, but in reality you just want to pick an argument by being all cutesy. Why don't you put on your big boy pants and have an intelligent debate with the rest of us? Or would you prefer to just keep on acting like a third grader trading playground insults?

The more established members have set the standard of discourse on this forum, and I'm just playing along. TGO David, and Mike, and Jamie, and even The Punisher! certainly don't seem to spare the sarcasm or frank conversation; why should I be held to a higher standard? My comments above weren't that abusive and were definitely on target. If that offends you, then I'll be happy to stick my big boy pants in the mail for you.

[Guest Jamie]

His duty rig was a open western-style holster, was it not?

Close but not really.

The slight of hand I refer to is drawing the backup. Guess where his "opponent" was looking the third time? His main gun hand. Where's he not looking? The opposing hand, which is drawing the backup gun. Magic 101. My only point is that drawing the backup is slower, but the "opponent" wasn't looking for it.

And where was Mas looking the first two times? At the ceiling? He got beat on both his prior tries. And again, that's even with expecting the other guy to draw.

He certainly thinks he can, and that's all that matters on the interweb.

No comment. I'll let him deal with that.

This has been my point all along; thank you for bringing it up. The answer to an armed confrontation isn't always going for the gun. Sometimes, you have to look for an opportunity. It's really a simple concept, but some here think that their only option is dive, duck, draw, dumbass and die.

Now you're just being obtuse. The whole idea is to make an opportunity unless one is presented to you.

Well, the wiki you reposted certainly explains the Tueller Drill, but the context in which you used it made me doubt (for just a second) that you understood that bit of training. It's really not a logical argument to interject here, but I'll run with it.

I understand it just fine, and also understand that it's not really a drill in the sense of trying to improve or learn a skill, so much as a demonstration of how reaction time works. But then I've explained that already...

I've done the Tueller Drill many times, on advancing targets, using live fire.

Why? As I've said, it's not really a skill-developing tool. Were you just helping somebody else give a lesson?

At one particular training session, students tried it three different ways. The first, you started with the firearm in hand indexed on the target. Most students got anywhere from 5-8 hits COM before the target reached them. In the second, the student started with the firearm at the low ready. This time, most students got 3-5 hits on target. In the third, the student started with the gun in a concealed holster. In this drill, the best students got 2 hits max, while some got none. The comparison of the three proves a point.....a point I've been trying to make in this thread: a gun in the hand is quicker than one in the holster. We're not talking about a BG starting with a gun in a holster, now, are we?

Again, the really important part: How was the starting signal handled? Who started when? What was their cue to take action?

And yes, it makes a difference. A big one. Especially when a particular action is expected vs. unexpected.

Let's assume that TGO David is a monster shooter, and he can move, draw from concealment, and get his first COM hit on target in 1 second. Let's assume I'm the BG, and I'm an average shooter. With my finger on the trigger and indexed on the target, I can get off three shots in 1 second. Even if David moves like a gazelle (which I'm sure he does, of course), I might miss two of those shots. What do you think that 1 shot that connects is going to do to his "OODA Loop"? Do you think that might slow him down a bit, or slow his monster-fast draw?

And what's your reaction time? How long does it take you to recognize an unexpected threat then decide to start that 3 shot per second rate of fire?

That's the part of the equation that I don't think you're taking into consideration.

If I'm standing in front of you, within arms reach, and decide to reach out and smack you... I'll have no trouble landing the blow so long as I don't let you know it's coming. you simply won't be able to react quickly enough to stop it once it's on the way though. And it's the same way with a drawn gun. It takes the brain time to process things... like sorting out a bit of non-compliance when it's suddenly interjected into the midst of compliance.

Yes, the gun you're carrying needs to be accessible... and an openly-carried gun would be better. But even a concealed gun can be pretty quick out of the holster if it's not buried too deeply. ( I'm thinking a pancake belt holster under a jacket, rather than pocket carry, or a "tuckable" holster. )

The gun in the hand is faster than the one in the concealed holster, unless you're a one-in-a-millon exhibition shooter. Me? I'm just slightly above average.

Yeah, quicker to fire, once the decision's been made to do so. But the element of surprise can close that gap, without the person necessarily being "super fast" on the draw. Any distraction or slight break in attention or focus can give the advantage away.

Again the important part is in not "telegraphing" your intentions to the person holding the gun on you.

I'd like to think David could debate the topic without resorting to name-calling. I'd like to think that........

You are allowed to think whatever you like, of course. And you may even be right, now and then.

[Guest Jamie]

Here... as much as I hate to use something from Hollywood, and especially with William Shatner... ...this is a good example of what I'm trying to explain, as far as demonstrating catching somebody by surprise, and them not being able to "catch up" in time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0D78JtxmqI

And yes, I know there's more than a couple of things "wrong" in the clip... like not shooting center mass. It's still a damn good example of using misdirection, and working the other person into a false sense of security until it's too late for them to do anything about it.

And anybody saying "He'd have gotten shot"... yeah, I think so too, with him standing there like a stump. Like I said, there's a few things not quite right there.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Jamie

[Mike.357]

What always amazes me about these types of threads is that many participants seem to be so hostile against anyone who answers with something other than the following:

"Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

"I'm not gonna die on my knees."

"Action is faster than reaction."

"Move, shoot, live!"

You get the idea.

I don't think anyone here is saying "leave the gun in the holster and wait to die." Instead, some are saying that you best reaction may be to comply, even for a few seconds, to wait for a better opportunity that will potentially lead to less shooting and collateral damage. I was thinking about this topic during dinner with my family. As I was sitting (facing the door because I'm an internet badass), I thought about what would happen if a BG walked in with a gun. If I rose from the table and immediately started shooting, I would be drawing fire towards my wife and two small children (one sitting in a booster and the other in a high chair.) That's pretty stupid. Instead, I could pretend to comply, move away from my family and THEN engage the bg when the opportunity presented itself. Sure seems a lot smarter than drawing fire towards confined children, but some here would label me a coward and tell me to stop carrying my gun.

I will always firmly believe action is faster than reaction. No where did anyone say they would going for their gun as soon as one is pointed at them. I assume most of us here who do any amount of training also do mental training. I run scenarios through my head when I practice with my pistol.

A bad guy pulls a gun on me, I am not going for my piece right that second, well maybe, just depends . Sorry if I gave you that impression. Each situation will be different. I will do what I think is best when it happens. A guy demands my wallet, well he is outta luck as I don't carry one. If he says hand over the cash I might reach for it, but if he diverts his eyes at all I am going for my piece. And there is not a lot of space between where I wear my pistol and where most carry their wallet. If I do reach for only cash I am not handing it to him, I am tossing it. Certainly at that point his eyes will divert, then I have the second or two I need.

These thugs we fear are not practiced pistolero's, not that I am either. But I do believe thug criminals do not spend time on a range, or spend time in their woods practicing lateral movement and firing on a target from their back or a knee. In that I have a HUGE advantage.

A lot of guys here train often. Common criminals don't.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Now you're just being obtuse. The whole idea is to make an opportunity unless one is presented to you.

Agreed, although I'd contend that sometimes, you might have to wait a bit to make that opportunity.

Why? As I've said, it's not really a skill-developing tool. Were you just helping somebody else give a lesson?

It was part of a class. The instructor was trying to make several points: 1) Move from your threat and 2) draw your gun if you even THINK the other guy is a threat, because it's significantly faster to get hits on target. I wasn't a fan of that second message, as he seemed to be telling students to draw even if the threat is still unidentified. But I digress.....

Again, the really important part: How was the starting signal handled? Who started when? What was their cue to take action?

And yes, it makes a difference. A big one. Especially when a particular action is expected vs. unexpected.

Students started shooting when the paper targets started advancing. The students knew the target would advance, although the instructor tried to suprise us.

And what's your reaction time? How long does it take you to recognize an unexpected threat then decide to start that 3 shot per second rate of fire?

That's the part of the equation that I don't think you're taking into consideration.

When my gun was on target? About 1/4 of a second. That was several years ago, but I can still achieve about 1/3 of a second testing myself with a shot timer. (Yes, there's an app for that!)

If I'm standing in front of you, within arms reach, and decide to reach out and smack you... I'll have no trouble landing the blow so long as I don't let you know it's coming. you simply won't be able to react quickly enough to stop it once it's on the way though. And it's the same way with a drawn gun. It takes the brain time to process things... like sorting out a bit of non-compliance when it's suddenly interjected into the midst of compliance.

I went to an all-boys high school, had a twin brother, and spent a few years boxing in college and beyond. I've been in many, many fights. With all due respect to your hand speed, I'm quite confident in my ability to duck a punch. And that's a big body movement. I'm even more confident in my ability to move my trigger finger a half inch under the same circumstances. I don't consider myself any sort of superman; almost any able-bodied man should be able to do so. I'm sure there's some guys out there fast enough to land that punch, but the average guy would have less than even odds.

Yes, the gun you're carrying needs to be accessible... and an openly-carried gun would be better. But even a concealed gun can be pretty quick out of the holster if it's not buried too deeply. ( I'm thinking a pancake belt holster under a jacket, rather than pocket carry, or a "tuckable" holster. )

Fast would be about a second. Average would be about 1.5 seconds. I'd fall in the average category. Even an average shooter can pull the trigger multiple times in that period of time.

Yeah, quicker to fire, once the decision's been made to do so. But the element of surprise can close that gap, without the person necessarily being "super fast" on the draw. Any distraction or slight break in attention or focus can give the advantage away.

Again the important part is in not "telegraphing" your intentions to the person holding the gun on you.

If someone is standing in close proximity, holding a gun on you, finger on trigger, looking at you.......even if you close the gap, he still has a distinct advantage. I've done it in FOF exercises with guys that were significantly faster than me......and I still landed shots on them before they got some off at me.

You are allowed to think whatever you like, of course. And you may even be right, now and then. :rolleyes:

I'm guessing he'll prove me wrong here shortly.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I will always firmly believe action is faster than reaction. No where did anyone say they would going for their gun as soon as one is pointed at them. I assume most of us here who do any amount of training also do mental training. I run scenarios through my head when I practice with my pistol.

A bad guy pulls a gun on me, I am not going for my piece right that second, well maybe, just depends . Sorry if I gave you that impression. Each situation will be different. I will do what I think is best when it happens. A guy demands my wallet, well he is outta luck as I don't carry one. If he says hand over the cash I might reach for it, but if he diverts his eyes at all I am going for my piece. And there is not a lot of space between where I wear my pistol and where most carry their wallet. If I do reach for only cash I am not handing it to him, I am tossing it. Certainly at that point his eyes will divert, then I have the second or two I need.

These thugs we fear are not practiced pistolero's, not that I am either. But I do believe thug criminals do not spend time on a range, or spend time in their woods practicing lateral movement and firing on a target from their back or a knee. In that I have a HUGE advantage.

A lot of guys here train often. Common criminals don't.

Agreed on all counts.

[Guest Jamie]

I went to an all-boys high school, had a twin brother, and spent a few years boxing in college and beyond. I've been in many, many fights. With all due respect to your hand speed, I'm quite confident in my ability to duck a punch. And that's a big body movement.

So... if we ever meet, do I have your permission to, without prior warning other than this, knock the crap out'a you? Or at least try?

[titan14]

So... if we ever meet, do I have your permission to, without prior warning other than this, knock the crap out'a you? Or at least try?

BINGO!!!!!!!!....I'd LOVE to see him duck one of mine!!!!!!

[Guest Jamie]

BINGO!!!!!!!!....I'd LOVE to see him duck one of mine!!!!!!

I leaned a nasty little trick from my time fooling around with the Chinese martial arts that generally screws with most boxers and what-have-you, because of the way it works.

The punch basically travels from wherever your hand happens to be, directly to the person's chin, in a straight line. It's not a broad, easily-detectable movement, and doesn't have the power of a traditional punch, but damn, it'll ring your bell, and you'll usually never even see it coming.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Here... as much as I hate to use something from Hollywood, and especially with William Shatner... ...this is a good example of what I'm trying to explain, as far as demonstrating catching somebody by surprise, and them not being able to "catch up" in time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0D78JtxmqI

And yes, I know there's more than a couple of things "wrong" in the clip... like not shooting center mass. It's still a damn good example of using misdirection, and working the other person into a false sense of security until it's too late for them to do anything about it.

And anybody saying "He'd have gotten shot"... yeah, I think so too, with him standing there like a stump. Like I said, there's a few things not quite right there.

Shatner is the man. Later in that same episode, he makes it with a green chick!

[Guest Jamie]

BINGO!!!!!!!!....I'd LOVE to see him duck one of mine!!!!!!

Heh... If Guy ever shows up to one of the meets, he's gonna have every damn fool there taking a poke at him.

[Mike.357]

he makes it with a green chick!

I made it with a green chick once, I saw no need to stop just cause she had some bad seafood.

[Guest Jamie]

Shatner is the man. Later in that same episode, he makes it with a green chick!

Wrong series. And the green chick was Batgirl, from the old Adam West TV show.

The guy in the clip I posted is just luck Leonard Nimoy wasn't there too. 'Cause he'd have been in some serious then.

[titan14]

Heh... If Guy ever shows up to one of the meets, he's gonna have every damn fool there taking a poke at him.

My wife and stepdaughter both think I'm crazy....I literally laughed out loud....

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

So... if we ever meet, do I have your permission to, without prior warning other than this, knock the crap out'a you? Or at least try?

Wouldn't be the first time some redneck tried to pop me for no reason.

BINGO!!!!!!!!....I'd LOVE to see him duck one of mine!!!!!!

Even Ali failed to land a few punches in his prime. But I'm sure you never miss.

[titan14]

I made it with a green chick once, I saw no need to stop just cause she had some bad seafood.

See my last post here....now they REALLY think im crazy....

[Guest Jamie]

My wife and stepdaughter both think I'm crazy....I literally laughed out loud....

My wife has learned to ignore my cackling while I'm at the computer... She pretty much knows who is responsible and why.

[titan14]

Wouldn't be the first time some redneck tried to pop me for no reason.

Even Ali failed to land a few punches in his prime. But I'm sure you never miss.

As YOU claim...I, myself, have been in "many, many fights"...you arent the only badass out there big boy....

[Guest Jamie]

Wouldn't be the first time some redneck tried to pop me for no reason.

So is that a "yes"?

And I certainly have a reason: Educational Purposes.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Heh... If Guy ever shows up to one of the meets, he's gonna have every damn fool there taking a poke at him.

If you get the first shot, being a martial badass and all, I'm sure I'll be out for the count. The other will have to console themselves by kicking me while I'm down. Even then, I'll bet one of them will miss!

This is a great thread. In one corner, we have guys who can dodge bullets. In the other, guys that can throw punches no one can dodge. I'm just glad you are the good guys........I think........

[Guest Jamie]

As YOU claim...I, myself, have been in "many, many fights"...you arent the only badass out there big boy....

I've been in a brawl or two, but am certainly no "badass". I did spend a long time learning to fight and throw a punch, however.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

As YOU claim...I, myself, have been in "many, many fights"...you arent the only badass out there big boy....

Relax, there, bubba. Never claimed I was a badass. Just stated that, from personal experience, it is possible to dodge a punch. I won't pretend that I won every fight or land every punch.