Gun pointed at you...do you shoot?

[Guest Jamie]

Don't know why but this statement made me picture a screaming monkey flinging poo. I wonder how someone'd react to that?

They'd probably shoot it... or at least shoot AT it.

[DaveTN]

When I was a cop we would use actors from the college to set-up traffic stops. The instructors gave them pre-determined scenarios to play out. We would stop the cars as a “routine” traffic stop.

You just never know what is going to happen. As David suggested maybe some of you should get together and try something like this.

But be forewarned; I think some here would get their feelings hurt.

I gave an honest opinion in the last thread about this based on my experience and having been in, and responded to real life shootings. It didn’t go over so well so I’ll save it this time. However… this topic will make for a high “Noise Level” and certainly be entertaining.

[tnsyty]

You or I... or anybody else here... may or may not could. But it can be done.

Go look up a couple of folks by the name of Bill Jordan and "Jelly" Brice, and read a bit about them, and their careers in LE. You can also ask Mas Ayoob about a demonstration he helped Bill Jordan with, back in the '70s, if you happen to run into him on one of the other gun forms.

Oh, I am not saying it can't be done. I pocket carry, so it is going to be a slower draw than those who holster. So for me, a comply until a distraction, is probably going to be my plan.

[TGO David]

You just never know what is going to happen. As David suggested maybe some of you should get together and try something like this.

But be forewarned; I think some here would get their feelings hurt.

I have zero delusions about this. In a self-defense shooting you have a very good chance of getting hurt yourself as well by acting. But there are worse fates.

[DaveTN]

I have zero delusions about this. In a self-defense shooting you have a very good chance of getting hurt yourself as well by acting. But there are worse fates.

Who cares whether you or I get hurt; that’s our choice.

But you absolutely refuse to acknowledge that you could put in action a shooting that would cause the death of one of your family members or an innocent bystander. You seem to think that can’t happen to you. Either that or you think you would be able you justify (to yourself) your actions if an innocent was killed.

I never said “Don’t shootâ€; I said no one was hurt and you can Monday morning quarterback that all you want. I stand by that; sorry if it disgusts you.

My training is far different than yours.

But there are worse fates.

Absolutely.

[TGO David]

Who cares whether you or I get hurt; that’s our choice.

But you absolutely refuse to acknowledge that you could put in action a shooting that would cause the death of one of your family members or an innocent bystander. You seem to think that can’t happen to you. Either that or you think you would be able you justify (to yourself) your actions if an innocent was killed.

This is a banner day because I get to tell not one but two people that they are an idiot. And in this case, you're an idiot.

I never said that I didn't care or didn't think such a thing could happen. You're just itching to jump to a conclusion and make an assumption based off of the fact that you really want to argue with me. The nonsense you post on TGO is about half an ounce more valuable than the drivel posted by other trolls looking for reactions.

Surely there are venues more accepting of the excrement you're shoveling.

[Mike.357]

This is a banner day because I get to tell not one but two people that they are an idiot. And in this case, you're an idiot.

you are not applying youself properly, I think you could easily hit half a dozen

[Guest Jamie]

This is a banner day because I get to tell not one but two people that they are an idiot. And in this case, you're an idiot.

I never said that I didn't care or didn't think such a thing could happen. You're just itching to jump to a conclusion and make an assumption based off of the fact that you really want to argue with me. The nonsense you post on TGO is about half an ounce more valuable than the drivel posted by other trolls looking for reactions.

Surely there are venues more accepting of the excrement you're shoveling.

Where in the hell is the "faints" smilie???

Damn, son... you are on a roll today.

[Guest Jamie]

you are not applying youself properly, I think you could easily hit half a dozen

If he'd just put his moderators in a box for a while, I'm quite sure I could give him a little competition.

And an entertaining contest it would be... at least for some.

[Mike.357]

Fiero guy could count as two or three all by himself

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Dude. You're making me want to sponsor a TGO force-on-force simmunitions class sometime soon just so that I can light you up and put a rest to some of the oddball ideas you have.

So, you believe it's oddball to think that it's difficult to beat a guy with a drawn gun? Wow.

You know, I've actually done simunitions a few times, with guys that had the overconfidence that you seem to display at times. It was always fun to watch them get humbled a bit when the realized that, despite a quick draw and some fancy footwork, you just can't beat a guy that only has to pull the trigger. FOF exercises usually knock the ego down a bit.

[strickj]

So, you believe it's oddball to think that it's difficult to beat a guy with a drawn gun? Wow.

You know, I've actually done simunitions a few times, with guys that had the overconfidence that you seem to display at times. It was always fun to watch them get humbled a bit when the realized that, despite a quick draw and some fancy footwork, you just can't beat a guy that only has to pull the trigger. FOF exercises usually knock the ego down a bit.

It is impossible to out draw an already drawn gun. However, it is not impossible to out shoot an already drawn gun.

Pick one...

YouTube - gun owner returns fire at robbers

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

It is impossible to out draw an already drawn gun. However, it is not impossible to out shoot an already drawn gun.

Pick one...

YouTube - gun owner returns fire at robbers

I was trying to find above where I said it was impossible...........

It's not......but it's quite difficult. And, despite what David may think, the man with the gun in his hand and his finger on the trigger DOES have the upper hand. Several of those videos demonstrate that it is sometime wise to find your opportunity, rather than drawing and firing at the first sign of trouble.

Here's just one of many great examples that you provided of someone who waited for the best opportunity to fight back:

Edited January 8, 2011 by Guy N. Cognito

[Guest Jamie]

It's not......but it's quite difficult. And, despite what David may think, the man with the gun in his hand and his finger on the trigger DOES have the upper hand.

Only for so long as you continue to REact to him. Once you turn things around and force him to react to you, the playing field is much more level. Especially if your actions are completely unexpected.

Oh, and just for the fun of it, here's the bit I mentioned earlier, concerning Massad Ayoob and Bill Jordan:

By Massad Ayoob

Reprinted from The Complete Book of Handguns 2003.

One of my mentors was a man named Bill Jordan. The old Border Patrol gunslinger was the fastest man with a double-action revolver that I ever saw in person. He was the man who conceptualized the Smith & Wesson .357 Combat Magnum the gun he called a “peace officer’s dream.†There was one other revolver that he never get did to see, though.

A devoted and accomplished hunter, Bill had been impressed with the power of the .22 WMR (Winchester Rimfire Magnum) even out of a short pistol barrel. He wrote in his classic text No Second Place Winner ($19.85 including postage from its current publisher Police Bookshelf, P.O. Box 122 , Dept CH, Concord , NH 03302 ; 800-624-9049) about why he recommended always carrying a backup gun.

Bill did that religiously in his uniformed days. In act, I can honestly say that Bill Jordon once blew me away with his backup revolver.

The year was 1974. Bill had been retired from the Border Patrol for some time, and was working for the NRA as sort of an ambassador at large. His speaking performances always included his famous quick-draw act. Bill was putting on the show in New Hampshire . Apart of the program involved having a cop come up and hold a cocked single-action revolver on him, with finger on trigger, while Bill promised to outdraw the drawn gun and “beat the drop†with his old long-action Smith & Wesson .38 Special Military & Police revolver. Both gun, of course with loaded only with primer blanks.

I had just won the NH State Championship in Police Combatshooting, and as the resident state champ, was elected to be the guy holding the gun on (gulp!) Bill Jordan. I put my finger on the trigger of the cocked Colt Single Action Army .45 and watched his hand. I was young and cocky and thought I was pretty good, and I knew there was not way this old sixty-something guy could take me.

BANG! I was dead. I was aware of a flicker of movement of his right hand and before I could react and pull the trigger, he had drawn and fired the shot that would have killed me had his gun been loaded with real bullets. “We’ll try again,†Bill told the audience with his kind, crinkly smile.

This time I was ready. When I saw his hand move, I fired. Unfortunately, it was a dead man’s shot. Bill had drawn and fired before my Colt’s hammer could fall through its long arc. You see, this was a man who was on film reacting to a start signal, drawing and firing his S&W (and hitting the target) in 24/100 ths of one second.

“I think this boy deserves one more chance,†Bill drawled to the delighted audience. “He almost made it that time.â€

Okay, dammit, this time I’d really be ready. I had taken up the slack on the cocked Colt’s trigger. My eyes were on his right hand. When it moved I would…

BANG!

“What?!? His hand didn’t move! His revolver is still in the holster! And…â€

Ah, yes. “And…†And, in Bill’s left hand, was a freshly-fired Smith & Wesson Airweight Chiefs Special that he had drawn from his left hip pocket and aimed at my head before he rolled back its smooth trigger on the primer blank that would have blown my brains out had it been a live round.

Anyway, just a little food for thought. Y'all carry on.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Only for so long as you continue to REact to him. Once you turn things around and force him to react to you, the playing field is much more level. Especially if your actions are completely unexpected.

Oh, and just for the fun of it, here's the bit I mentioned earlier, concerning Massad Ayoob and Bill Jordan:

Anyway, just a little food for thought. Y'all carry on.

Well, damn. If Bill Jordan can do it with a quick draw rig and a little slight of hand, then certainly TGO David could do it from concealment anytime!

Whether you want to admit it or not, the good guy always has to REact to the bad guy. The rest is semantics and internet gun forum platitudes.

[Punisher84]

Whether you want to admit it or not, the good guy always has to REact to the bad guy. The rest is semantics and internet gun forum platitudes.

BS. I've done sim training and I've won and "lost", got hit in the shoulder. The thing people like you and Dave seem to not think about is the will to act. Lots of criminals draw guns simply to intimidate and hope for a compliant victim. When you turn that around on them and suddenly their victim becomes the aggressor it changes the game.

If you are talking about a Wild West duel where we stand at 20 paces your gun is drawn and sighted and I have to draw mine and shoot you, I'll say you've won if you can shoot worth a damn.

Now if we are close quarters...you might get me, you might not. Only one way to really ever know.

[Guest Jamie]

Well, damn. If Bill Jordan can do it with a quick draw rig and a little slight of hand

As I understand it, Jordan always used his duty rig for his demonstration, not some Hollywood fast-draw rig.

And the only sleight of hand in the bit I posted was after beating someone twice already, with them expecting the draw.

... then certainly TGO David could do it from concealment anytime!

Maybe he can? It's certainly not impossible.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the good guy always has to REact to the bad guy. The rest is semantics and internet gun forum platitudes.

It always amazes me how so many people have such trouble with simple, basic concepts.

In the grand scheme of it, yes, the good guy IS reacting to the bad guy. But in the details, once it's broken down, that's not entirely the case.

Someone walks up and points a gun at you, you react by putting your hands up or otherwise complying.

Once that person believes things are going the way he wants though, you suddenly taking some unexpected action - be it drawing a gun, diving out a window, whatever - puts the attacker in the position of having to analyze what's going on and taking an action - a reaction - to that. And that process takes time. Time you may be able to use to neutralize the threat or escape.

And that, sir, is not semantics. Biology, neurology, and even psychology, yes. But certainly not semantics or "internet gun forum platitudes".

Let me give you one more example of action/reaction, and the time it takes for one or the other:

The Tueller Drill. You're familiar with that one?

For those that aren't, here's how it goes ( Borrowed from Wikipedia ):

1. The "attacker and shooter are positioned back-to-back. At the signal, the attacker sprints away from the shooter, and the shooter unholsters his gun and shoots at the target 21 feet (6.4 m) in front of him. The attacker stops as soon as the shot is fired. The shooter is successful only if his shot is good and if the runner did not cover 21 feet (6.4 m).

2. A more stressful arrangement is to have the attacker begin 21 feet (6.4 m) behind the shooter and run towards the shooter. The shooter is successful only if he was able take a good shot before he is tapped on the back by the attacker.

3. If the shooter is armed with only a training replica gun, a full-contact drill may be done with the attacker running towards the shooter. In this variation, the shooter should practice side-stepping the attacker while he is drawing the gun.

You'll notice that the shooter and runner either start on a common signal, or the shooter starts as soon as the takes off? ( This version is usually done with simunition or something of the like, with the runner coming AT the shooter. )

This exercise vividly demonstrates reaction time to an attacker, and how much ground/distance that attacker can close in the period of time it takes someone to react to him.

Now, let's reverse it a bit... the runner starts when he sees the shooter draw his gun.

Wanna guess at how many times the runner will make it to the shooter then?

Action is always faster than reaction. You just have to know the difference between the two, and set up one so the other person has to do the other.

And it just ain't that hard.

P.S. TGO David? You wanna go for the Hat Trick?

Edited January 8, 2011 by Jamie

[DaveTN]

The thing people like you and Dave seem to not think about is the will to act.

Why are you involving me in this? Have I said anywhere that you should not act? I’m being attacked because I made a statement that “no one was injured and you can Monday morning quarterback that all you wantâ€.

I have faced gunmen and I have acted. I have never been held hostage so I have no idea how I would handle that. But to say I would pull out my gun in a crowd and start blasting away would be ridiculous.

We have always been able to have these discussions on this forum and maintain some kind of order, but this has just turned into a witch hunt. So instead of climbing on because someone else is attacking me how about you tell me what your problem is with me or where in this thread I have suggested some kind of action you find objectionable.

[Punisher84]

Why are you involving me in this? Have I said anywhere that you should not act? Im being attacked because I made a statement that no one was injured and you can Monday morning quarterback that all you want.

I have faced gunmen and I have acted. I have never been held hostage so I have no idea how I would handle that. But to say I would pull out my gun in a crowd and start blasting away would be ridiculous.

We have always been able to have these discussions on this forum and maintain some kind of order, but this has just turned into a witch hunt. So instead of climbing on because someone else is attacking me how about you tell me what your problem is with me or where in this thread I have suggested some kind of action you find objectionable.

I'm not climbing on and I'm not really attacking you, at least that's not my intention. I assume you are still referring to the restaurant thread, which I am not. I simply included you because you seem to have a much different take on things than Jamie, who was also LE.

I'm not trying to jump on the argument train in this one. I just was simply stating my opinion and included you in my post because you seem to be nearer Guy's thought process than say mine or Jamie's.

[DaveTN]

I'm not climbing on and I'm not really attacking you, at least that's not my intention. I assume you are still referring to the restaurant thread, which I am not. I simply included you because you seem to have a much different take on things than Jamie, who was also LE.

I'm not trying to jump on the argument train in this one. I just was simply stating my opinion and included you in my post because you seem to be nearer Guy's thought process than say mine or Jamie's.

Thanks… I’m 180 out from Jamie on everything.

If I remember right Jamie said he is better trained than most here and had probably forgot more than most here know. So I’m certainly not in the same league as Jamie; he is in a legend in his own mind.

However… I would have to go back and look but I don’t think I have commented on anything Jamie posted. He is usually trying to be funny and so I don’t go there if it’s a serious topic.

I have however faced gunmen in real life shootings and survived. I think that is probably the real problem with some here.

[Guest Jamie]

If I remember right Jamie said he is better trained than most here and had probably forgot more than most here know. So I’m certainly not in the same league as Jamie; he is in a legend in his own mind.

What I said was that I'd probably already forgotten more about weapons than most people here will ever know. And that's all weapons, not just guns.

Do you know how to use a sword, Dave? European as well as the oriental varieties? Throwing knives? Axes or tomahawks? A spear maybe?

I do.

And I also said that I'll never need 95% of what I still remember. Oh, and I also said I'm not looking for a trainer, or any sort of self-defense classes.

As for me being a legend... nope. I've never even made the first claim of being an "expert" either. So I have no idea where you're coming up with that.

However… I would have to go back and look but I don’t think I have commented on anything Jamie posted. He is usually trying to be funny and so I don’t go there if it’s a serious topic.

Yep, sometimes I make wisecracks, and sometimes I don't. There's no harm in having a good time, after all. And I usually make it pretty clear when I'm not joking.

You, however, seem to have left your sense of humor in Illinois... if you ever had one at all.

I have however faced gunmen in real life shootings and survived. I think that is probably the real problem with some here.

So have I, Dave. More than once. But then, you probably don't believe that, do ya?

Doesn't matter, in the end, does it?

Edited January 9, 2011 by Jamie
Cleaning up font tags

[c.a.willard]

It seems to me the real question is the bad guys intention. If im 100% certain he intends to kill me and my family then by all means im gonna try, but if not i would think it would just be better to play along and see if the status quo changes. If the bad guy hasnt made up his mind to shoot you, theres no reason to make up his mind for him. especially with family near by because if you lose more than likely so do they.

[Kegger]

Bang, Bang MuthaF'er.

Or something like that.

[Guest 1010011010]

Don't know why but this statement made me picture a screaming monkey flinging poo. I wonder how someone'd react to that?

I was thinking of the Daffy Duck cartoon. Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Thrust!

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

As I understand it, Jordan always used his duty rig for his demonstration, not some Hollywood fast-draw rig.

And the only sleight of hand in the bit I posted was after beating someone twice already, with them expecting the draw. [/Quote]

His duty rig was a open western-style holster, was it not? The slight of hand I refer to is drawing the backup. Guess where his "opponent" was looking the third time? His main gun hand. Where's he not looking? The opposing hand, which is drawing the backup gun. Magic 101. My only point is that drawing the backup is slower, but the "opponent" wasn't looking for it.

Maybe he can? It's certainly not impossible.

He certainly thinks he can, and that's all that matters on the interweb.

It always amazes me how so many people have such trouble with simple, basic concepts.

In the grand scheme of it, yes, the good guy IS reacting to the bad guy. But in the details, once it's broken down, that's not entirely the case.

Someone walks up and points a gun at you, you react by putting your hands up or otherwise complying.

Once that person believes things are going the way he wants though, you suddenly taking some unexpected action - be it drawing a gun, diving out a window, whatever - puts the attacker in the position of having to analyze what's going on and taking an action - a reaction - to that. And that process takes time. Time you may be able to use to neutralize the threat or escape.

And that, sir, is not semantics. Biology, neurology, and even psychology, yes. But certainly not semantics or "internet gun forum platitudes".

This has been my point all along; thank you for bringing it up. The answer to an armed confrontation isn't always going for the gun. Sometimes, you have to look for an opportunity. It's really a simple concept, but some here think that their only option is dive, duck, draw, dumbass and die.

Let me give you one more example of action/reaction, and the time it takes for one or the other:

The Tueller Drill. You're familiar with that one?

For those that aren't, here's how it goes ( Borrowed from Wikipedia ):

1. The "attacker and shooter are positioned back-to-back. At the signal, the attacker sprints away from the shooter, and the shooter unholsters his gun and shoots at the target 21 feet (6.4 m) in front of him. The attacker stops as soon as the shot is fired. The shooter is successful only if his shot is good and if the runner did not cover 21 feet (6.4 m).

2. A more stressful arrangement is to have the attacker begin 21 feet (6.4 m) behind the shooter and run towards the shooter. The shooter is successful only if he was able take a good shot before he is tapped on the back by the attacker.

3. If the shooter is armed with only a training replica gun, a full-contact drill may be done with the attacker running towards the shooter. In this variation, the shooter should practice side-stepping the attacker while he is drawing the gun.

You'll notice that the shooter and runner either start on a common signal, or the shooter starts as soon as the takes off? ( This version is usually done with simunition or something of the like, with the runner coming AT the shooter. )

This exercise vividly demonstrates reaction time to an attacker, and how much ground/distance that attacker can close in the period of time it takes someone to react to him.

Now, let's reverse it a bit... the runner starts when he sees the shooter draw his gun.

Wanna guess at how many times the runner will make it to the shooter then?

Action is always faster than reaction. You just have to know the difference between the two, and set up one so the other person has to do the other.

And it just ain't that hard.

Well, the wiki you reposted certainly explains the Tueller Drill, but the context in which you used it made me doubt (for just a second) that you understood that bit of training. It's really not a logical argument to interject here, but I'll run with it.

I've done the Tueller Drill many times, on advancing targets, using live fire. At one particular training session, students tried it three different ways. The first, you started with the firearm in hand indexed on the target. Most students got anywhere from 5-8 hits COM before the target reached them. In the second, the student started with the firearm at the low ready. This time, most students got 3-5 hits on target. In the third, the student started with the gun in a concealed holster. In this drill, the best students got 2 hits max, while some got none. The comparison of the three proves a point.....a point I've been trying to make in this thread: a gun in the hand is quicker than one in the holster. We're not talking about a BG starting with a gun in a holster, now, are we?

Let's assume that TGO David is a monster shooter, and he can move, draw from concealment, and get his first COM hit on target in 1 second. Let's assume I'm the BG, and I'm an average shooter. With my finger on the trigger and indexed on the target, I can get off three shots in 1 second. Even if David moves like a gazelle (which I'm sure he does, of course), I might miss two of those shots. What do you think that 1 shot that connects is going to do to his "OODA Loop"? Do you think that might slow him down a bit, or slow his monster-fast draw?

The gun in the hand is faster than the one in the concealed holster, unless you're a one-in-a-millon exhibition shooter. Me? I'm just slightly above average.

P.S. TGO David? You wanna go for the Hat Trick?

I'd like to think David could debate the topic without resorting to name-calling. I'd like to think that........