Reloading in-between targets?

[strickj]

A recent post has me scratching me noggin. What is the intended purpose of reloading while still engaging targets?

I see this on COFs for matches and on teevee gun shows... but I've never seen an explanation of why it's done.

Seems to me, the absolute last thing to do while you still have active targets is to stop and reload. Not to add you're left with multiple mags with unknown amounts of ammo in them

I am not talking about sticking a fresh mag in after the targets are naturalized 'just in case'. That one is pretty self explanatory.

[snip]

Also recommended is practicing engaging multiple targets and reloading in the middle of strings of fire. While I'm not much of a gamer, I do think that certain competitive shooting drills such as the

are good tools to use to practice this. [snip]

[herr.baer]

One is to level the playing field. It keeps the single stacks on par with hi cap mags. It also lets you practice a mag change under stress of the timer. Not something you really want to practice in real life should you run a mag dry and all the targets have not been neutralized.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

One purpose I've read about-- If some shots have been fired and there is a temporary lull, and especially if you have temporary cover, reload when you have a chance so there is a full mag loaded for what happens in the future. As opposed to possibly having to reload in the middle of future hostilities.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

If you are walking to the car and 2 guys step out from behind the dumpster 3 yards away you are not going to shoot 1 guy, reload and shoot the other...

....but it might be smart to do a proactive reload AFTER you shoot those two guys because they MAY have an accomplice who has not shown himself yet. This is especially so if you carry a low cap gun. Now if you carry a Glock 17, that is a lot of ammo on board that can be used before you NEED to reload. But a Khar Pm40? Not so much.

The proactive reload is more a "planning ahead just in case" kind of thing that adds the extra insurance of a now fully loaded gun in case friends of the deceased show up.

Or if you are in a military or police function where you are engaging multiple adversaries (especially in structures) then topping off before you enter the next room makes sense.

[Guest CK1]

Think you're missing it a little.. reloading during strings is usually a "training" thing like in the "El Presidente" like TGO David was mentioning, helps to build muscle memory and is done to increase speed and consistency as performing a reload is actually fairly tricky motor-skills-wise.

Reloading during a COF like at a match or something is usually done as a requirement to meet and satisfy that particular COF's description (required on-the-clock reloads are as hard or sometimes harder than engaging the actual targets and are just another facet to the games). Many times a "tactical reload" is done to keep enough ammo in the gun so as to NOT have to expose yourself to multiple targets and run dry to slide-lock while out in front of them, and most reloads in the games are done in-between strings while on the move (in IDPA reloading behind cover is required most of the time). The advantage to a "tactical reload" is that the gun has only one round in it for the shortest possible amount of time, never dry, and in an instant you're fully loaded with a fully charged mag...

The "what if's" of how things might go down in "real world" are endless, and likely none of us will have to duck behind dumpsters or something mid-gunfight and perform tac-loads before we reengage multiple targets... but I guess it's a skill I'd rather have down than not, simplified it's just a process of trying to "burn-in" and train yourself to keep your gun in fully loaded condition when you get a chance, rather than just "winging it" and finding out the hard way that you're out.

Besides, it's fun.

Edited January 6, 2011 by CK1

[Bubba0031]

Am I correct that in IDPA that even with hi-cap mags you must begin COF with no more than 10 rounds? Is that 10 total or 10 +1? Also does a tac-load (i.e. removing a mag with rounds still in it and with a round still in the chamber so that the gun is not @ slidelock) require you to retain the mag as opposed to letting it drop if it's empty and the gun is @ slide lock?

[Guest CK1]

Am I correct that in IDPA that even with hi-cap mags you must begin COF with no more than 10 rounds? Is that 10 total or 10 +1? Also does a tac-load (i.e. removing a mag with rounds still in it and with a round still in the chamber so that the gun is not @ slidelock) require you to retain the mag as opposed to letting it drop if it's empty and the gun is @ slide lock?

10+1 to start, 10rds in mags after that...

Yes, gotta retain mags that still have rounds in 'em.

[skwirl]

You can get to second base quicker if you don't run over to first base along the way. But, rules are rules and games are games.

[robbiev]

10+1 to start, 10rds in mags after that...

Yes, gotta retain mags that still have rounds in 'em.

Not nit-picking, just adding a bit for clarity: you must retain any mag, even if the mag itself is empty, if your gun isn't completely empty at the time you start the reload. IOW: the mag is empty but there is one in the chamber: you must retain the mag.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Apology if this question is too much thread drift--

On youtube there are example videos of tactical reload done two ways--

1. Move weak hand down, grab fresh mag, move weak hand up, release/retain old mag, insert new mag, move weak hand down to pocket old mag, move weak hand back up and continue shooting.

2. Release/retain old mag, move hand down and pocket old mag, grab new mag, move weak hand up, reload and continue shooting.

Option 2 would appear more efficient. Was just wondering if there are arguments to be made for option 1 even if it appears slower and appears to require more dexterity?

[Guest CK1]

Not nit-picking, just adding a bit for clarity: you must retain any mag, even if the mag itself is empty, if your gun isn't completely empty at the time you start the reload. IOW: the mag is empty but there is one in the chamber: you must retain the mag.

Yes, correct, that is the rule.

Apology if this question is too much thread drift--

On youtube there are example videos of tactical reload done two ways--

1. Move weak hand down, grab fresh mag, move weak hand up, release/retain old mag, insert new mag, move weak hand down to pocket old mag, move weak hand back up and continue shooting.

2. Release/retain old mag, move hand down and pocket old mag, grab new mag, move weak hand up, reload and continue shooting.

Option 2 would appear more efficient. Was just wondering if there are arguments to be made for option 1 even if it appears slower and appears to require more dexterity?

In IDPA #1 is known as a "tactical reload" and #2 is known as a "reload with retention", and yes, there are lots of arguments which are better...

Usually in most IDPA COF's they're interchangeable and which one a shooter chooses to use is up to them, some say there's less chance of fumbling a mag using the "reload with retention", while the gun is caught with only round for a shorter time using the "tactical reload"... the rules say you can be on the move as long as the slide is closed and a mag is seated so I tend to prefer to use the "tactical reload" myself (for now, until I fumble one...) as it's slightly faster because you can stash your "old" mag while you're on the go.

Come shoot with us at Music City Tactical Shooters sometime, seems our match director Chandler likes to throw in a possible tac load/reload-w/-retention on just about every stage .

[gsbell]

In IDPA No. 1 is a Tactical Reload and No. 2 is a Reload w/ Retention

Years back it was taught and considered to be tacti-cool to do No. 1, I don't think it is being taught much anymore. The idea was that you minimized the time that the gun was actually without a magazine seated. Unless you practice it A LOT the tac-load is a fumble fest especially with double stack mags.

[gsbell]

beat me to it CK1

[dcloudy777]

To the OP: I'm not sure of TGODavid's intent (didn't read the thread it was pulled from) however; it should be noted that drills like the "El Presidente" are done with magazines purposely downloaded so that the reload is done when the gun is empty. Learning to reload an empty gun as fast as possible is pretty important, whether in the middle of a string of fire or not. In fact, the more targets there are still targets in front of you, the faster you probably ought to get rounds back in the gun.

Now, as to the "tactical reload/reload with retention/IPSC drops loaded mags so IDPA doesn't" reload, well, I'll default to the "if you don't have anything nice to say..." rule.

DanO

[gsbell]

+1 to that Dan!

USPSA & IDPA are just games, I shoot them both within their rules and enjoy it.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

In IDPA #1 is known as a "tactical reload" and #2 is known as a "reload with retention", and yes, there are lots of arguments which are better...

Usually in most IDPA COF's they're interchangeable and which one a shooter chooses to use is up to them, some say there's less chance of fumbling a mag using the "reload with retention", while the gun is caught with only round for a shorter time using the "tactical reload"... the rules say you can be on the move as long as the slide is closed and a mag is seated so I tend to prefer to use the "tactical reload" myself (for now, until I fumble one...) as it's slightly faster because you can stash your "old" mag while you're on the go.

Come shoot with us at Music City Tactical Shooters sometime, seems our match director Chandler likes to throw in a possible tac load/reload-w/-retention on just about every stage .

Thanks CK1 and gsbell for the explanations.

It would be fun to at least watch an IDPA if I would ever go anywhere or do anything.

Have lately been fumbling-thru practicing mag changes. Bring pistol up and double-tap two targets. Trying to master just getting on target in some acceptable time frame. With 10 round mags, the third repetition shoots dry after two shots so I do a reload and continue the exercise.

Likely never competing, I only retain the mags to avoid dropping them on concrete.

Haven't been in the habit of carrying a spare mag, but ought to adopt the habit. A fellow at the range gave me a belt-loop Uncle Mike's 2 mag kydex holder because he said it didn't fit his mags. Tried that out just for fun at the range, but my typical un-tucked t-shirt gets all tangled up with the mags on the belt. Practice makes perfect, but a mag in the left front pocket seems quicker to access.

I always wear cargo pants and most of the pants have a narrow pocket on top of the front pocket flap. Perhaps that pocket is intended for a flashlight or a folding stick ruler. If that narrow pocket was sewed up to the length and width of a mag, was thinking that might make a good easy-access place to everyday tote a spare mag.

Or maybe somebody sells a clip-on single-mag holder that would ride well in that little pocket?

[robbiev]

It would be fun to at least watch an IDPA if I would ever go anywhere or do anything.

IDPA is a lot of fun if you go into it knowing ahead of time it's just a game. The same can be said for IPSC. I shoot both disciplines (although I haven't had the opportunity to shoot near as much this year as I used to).

One of the things I hate to see at any match is some shmuck sitting around griping about the rules and how much he hates the game (whichever game it may be that we're competing in at the time). If you don't like the rules of the game you're playing, go play some other game. Jeez...there's no law that says you have to compete in every sport on the planet that's related to your hobby.

[bvarnell]

Thanks CK1 and gsbell for the explanations.

It would be fun to at least watch an IDPA if I would ever go anywhere or do anything.

Have lately been fumbling-thru practicing mag changes. Bring pistol up and double-tap two targets. Trying to master just getting on target in some acceptable time frame. With 10 round mags, the third repetition shoots dry after two shots so I do a reload and continue the exercise.

Likely never competing, I only retain the mags to avoid dropping them on concrete.

Haven't been in the habit of carrying a spare mag, but ought to adopt the habit. A fellow at the range gave me a belt-loop Uncle Mike's 2 mag kydex holder because he said it didn't fit his mags. Tried that out just for fun at the range, but my typical un-tucked t-shirt gets all tangled up with the mags on the belt. Practice makes perfect, but a mag in the left front pocket seems quicker to access.

I always wear cargo pants and most of the pants have a narrow pocket on top of the front pocket flap. Perhaps that pocket is intended for a flashlight or a folding stick ruler. If that narrow pocket was sewed up to the length and width of a mag, was thinking that might make a good easy-access place to everyday tote a spare mag.

Or maybe somebody sells a clip-on single-mag holder that would ride well in that little pocket?

You're in luck!!

Next Sat. @ ClevelandHRPC, 10 a.m. IDPA, 3GUN, Information, Reviews and Training - Team rangeissafe.com

Come out and watch or better yet, shoot with us.

Usually 50 to 60 shooters broken up into 5 squads, shooting on 5 pistol bays.

[Guest BigJ45]

it should be noted that drills like the "El Presidente" are done with magazines purposely downloaded so that the reload is done when the gun is empty.

Nope, a true El Prez as it was originally shot is not fired with downloaded magazines. Only a IDPA-ified El Prez requires downloaded mags. Oops! Is that a procedural or a FTDR for the "if you don't have anything nice to say" rule?

[dcloudy777]

You are correct sir. The actual USPSA classifier "El Presidente" (CM 99-11) is to be shot with fully loaded magazines, but with a mandatory reload after the first 6 shots. Pretty much the same result as using 6-round mags, except the slide will not lock back.

When used as a training drill, however, it's usually shot with downloaded mags, so as to force the shooter to practice the emergency (empty gun) reload.

DanO