Smoke Poles

[inspecting1]

Ok so I've been thinking about a survival guns. I have numerous guns that would meet the short term requirements but long term when you are out of powder and primers thats it. What I have been thinking about is flintlock muzzleloaders. From what I've read I think black powder could be manufactured by an idividual all you would need is the recipe. Granted this would not be something to undertake unless the SHTF. What are ya'lls thought on this?

[Jonnin]

I think by the time I were down to making my own crummy, corrosive black powder from what I can dig out of the ground, and my own bullets from whatever lead I can scavenge or dig up, etc, I would be better served with a bow and arrows or a xbow.

[jcj]

I've thought about this a bit as well. Primitive efforts to make powder could end disastrously. I recall reading that explosions were quite common in the early days of manufacturing powder.

How about alternatives such as archery? Master the skills of trapping?

That said, it could be done and is probably a viable long term option.

[Trekbike]

I would be better served with a bow and arrows or a xbow.

This

[inspecting1]

Well I agree with the bow and arrow comment but there is a reason that the flintlock took the bow and arrows place. If you started preping now and had a solid recipe for BP and understood the method to mix then without a doubt I would wrather have a smoke pole than stick and string. Especially with the knowledge that we have now.

[Guest mosinon]

I think by the time I were down to making my own crummy, corrosive black powder from what I can dig out of the ground, and my own bullets from whatever lead I can scavenge or dig up, etc, I would be better served with a bow and arrows or a xbow.

I'm fairly certain that Ben Franklin had the same thought. His idea being to arm the army with longbows. The trouble comes in with the training. I suspect that it takes a lot more practice to become proficient with a bow than a musket.

That problem is likely nullified by the trouble it takes to learn the chemistry. So, once you;re digging crap out of the ground, you'll probably get more food by shooting a bow in less time.

I don't know that is a fact. It would be interesting to conduct the experiment though.

[Jonnin]

There are pros and cons to both. It takes a great deal of skill to make arrows too, and a bow is not easy to make if you could not find one or didnt have one.

The Natives did pretty well against us when guns were this primative. Disease and modern guns won the day, not simple muskets vs arrows. By the time the natives totally gave up, guns were using cartridges and lever actions, etc.

[Backon4]

They tried making home made black powder on an episode of mythbusters. It did not fare well and they had precise scales and formulas. I think you would be better off buying a larger quantity and storing it. A good long bow is nearly indestructible, arrows, while maybe difficult to make would last multiple times assuming you don't lose them. You may not be able to make 100yd shots but 25 yards with a crappy arrow is very doable. I don't currently own one but a good take down long bow is on my list of must have's. That and a rossi trifecta 12,22lr,223. Also people laughed when I told them I put a cheap zebco rod and reel in my bug out bag but I figure it will be much easier to fish on a regular basis than it will be to expect to trap, hunt, forrage, or harvest on a daily basis.

[JAB]

I'm fairly certain that Ben Franklin had the same thought. His idea being to arm the army with longbows. The trouble comes in with the training. I suspect that it takes a lot more practice to become proficient with a bow than a musket.

From my understanding of history, this is EXACTLY why the old, slow to load firearms replaced the longbow. It took time to train a good archer and not just anyone could successfully use a longbow in combat. Training, maintaining and equipping archers required committing resources to the task. On the flip side, any stupid peasant could be taught to stuff some powder and a ball down a metal tube, point it in the general direction of the enemy and light a fuse (or have a second peasant with whom they were partnered do so) or pull a trigger, etc. The use of firearms in such warfare wasn't like hunting, target shooting or even personal combat between individuals. They weren't interested in striking specific targets or precision shooting even in the case of the archers most of the time. Instead, in such a situation, they were simply trying to hurle as many potentially deadly projectiles as possible in the enemy's general direction - shooting into the crowd, as it were. The use of firearms meant they could have a much bigger fighting force for a much smaller investment and if the firearm blew up and killed the guy using it, so what? Commoners who could be taught to perform such a task were a dime a dozen, so to speak. With a little development, those firearms reached a point where they could even penetrate plate armor - meaning that a basically untrained peasant with a relatively cheap weapon could now kill - or at least eliminate from battle - an enemy knight/warrior who had expensive equipment and years of training.

Edited January 6, 2011 by JAB

[Jonnin]

Armys and such aside, just for raw survival, I would still use the bow. I can handle a cap & ball gun, even an annoying one like a muzzle loader so long as I had powder and caps, but matchlocks or flintlocks with homemade powder are not for me. Either one may be equally valid, but that would be my choice. I have not used a bow in some years but I am confident I can relearn it in a hurry if I must.

[JAB]

Armys and such aside, just for raw survival, I would still use the bow. I can handle a cap & ball gun, even an annoying one like a muzzle loader so long as I had powder and caps, but matchlocks or flintlocks with homemade powder are not for me. Either one may be equally valid, but that would be my choice. I have not used a bow in some years but I am confident I can relearn it in a hurry if I must.

I see where you are coming from.

I have a couple of .50 caliber muzzleloaders. They are the 'musket' type, not more modern inline rifles. When I got the first one, I had to replace the nipple. Thing is, it had a type of two-part nipple on it that a gunsmith told me is no longer made because too many people lost ears and eyes when that type of nipple blew due to the bad design. I replaced it with a standard type nipple from Dixie Gun Works but had to modify it a little to make it work. I wasn't getting a good seal with the caps because they were too big to fit tightly enough over the top of the nipple (although I was using the appropriate size) and wasn't getting enough spark down the nipple to ignite the powder so I filed a bit off of the top of it so there would be a larger surface area for the cap to seal against. The problem there was that I now had to 'fire' it twice to actually get it to shoot - the cap consistently pops and the shot fires on the second try. I shot it a few times like that and then did what I thought was a thorough cleaning. Still, the next time I went to shoot it, the opening in the nipple was virtually sealed shut with what looked to be corrosion and rust. I'd have to pull the nipple off and clean it out with a paperclip, etc. if I wanted to shoot it - and even that might not work.

As for the second one, it had the same type of nipple as the first had when I first got it. Problem with it is that I can't even get the old one out to replace it because it is so rusted/corroded or maybe swelled in place. I like both the rifles and have no plan or desire to sell them but I also really don't shoot them. I'd use such a rifle for survival if I had to but wouldn't be real confident that it would be reliably functional if needed.

I also have a compound bow. I bought it used and had a local (now defunct) archery shop go over it and replace what needed replacing. I haven't used it much and am not very good with it but I know the basics and could get better with it if necessary. Past experience has shown me that I am much better with a recurve but those darned things are just too expensive for something I'd rarely use. At any rate, I could walk in right now, pick that compound bow and the quiver of arrows for it up, walk outside and shoot it with no doubts about whether or not it would work, no concerns about damp arrows not firing and no concerns about putting too much string behind the arrow and blowing it up in my face.

Edited January 6, 2011 by JAB

[Ghooge2008]

I'm fairly certain, before I run out of 9mm, .40, .45,12g, 20g, .410, 30-06 and literally a canoe full of .22 bricks...I would either be dead, or wishing I was.

[Moped]

I'm fairly certain, before I run out of 9mm, .40, .45,12g, 20g, .410, 30-06 and literally a canoe full of .22 bricks...I would either be dead, or wishing I was.

I got to agree with this!

Wasn't there a show on back in the fall, where a family is into the prepper thing and the dad actually made his on powder and fired a cap and ball pistol with it? Seems like it was on TLC. Any way, I'd have a hard time making black powder too.

Those of you that are going to try out archery, you might want to learn how to make a bow and arrows. From experience I know arrows are easily lost. And it stands to reason that at some point a bow is going to break and need to be replaced or repaired. Not to mention the need to learn flint knapping. Of course, one source of arrowheads could be spoons. They are of the general shape already. A little hammer and file work would probably turn them into half decent two bladed broadheads.

[Krull]

Personally...and this is just my opinion I think the Taurus Judge is the ultimate survival weapon. Lots of versatility for hunting and self defense. If I had one gun and only one gun .....I would take my Judge with me.

[DRM]

I suspect that it takes a lot more practice to become proficient with a bow than a musket. .

I dunno...

I'm no "crack shot" with anything, but I bought my first compound bow less than 2 weeks before bow season this year, practiced maybe 5 times, shooting less than 100 shots - and was deadly enough to drop the first doe that walked in front of me with a not-too-terrible shoulder shot @ about 20 yards:

Then again, that is with modern sights - not shooting by "feel" with a long bow.

Still, If I had to choose in a long-term survival situation, I'd probably take the bow. It might be ugly - but I think I could figure out how to make a decent arrow (or even a replacement long bow) at lot easier than figuring out how to make gunpowder and projectiles.

[DRM]

Those of you that are going to try out archery, you might want to learn how to make a bow and arrows. From experience I know arrows are easily lost. And it stands to reason that at some point a bow is going to break and need to be replaced or repaired. Not to mention the need to learn flint knapping. Of course, one source of arrowheads could be spoons. They are of the general shape already. A little hammer and file work would probably turn them into half decent two bladed broadheads.

All of these I made form "found" material on the banks of Kentucky lake while hiking with my kids. I can knap if I have to - but these were used as-found, no knapping took place. The wet twine dried hard and tight, making for a good solid attachment. The bamboo shoots were a little light, but again - I was working with what was washed up on shore. Even with the natural edges you see, I had no problem getting several inches of penetration into my archery "block" target at 5-10 yards when throwing.

BTW, these were my FIRST attempts at ever making a spear. I'd have to think that with some time, patience and access to materials a decently deadly arrow or spear could be made without too much trouble.

[Guest Knightsr25]

I have always relied on a stockpile of ammo and weapons that use current military calibers. The fact is I have also had to consider the possiblity that I would be unable to retain my storage location, thus nullifying my stockpile. A favorite of my friends has been inexpensive rifles (we used sks) packed in cosmoline with a cleaning kit 1000rds ammo and any commonly needed repleacement parts, all packaged in sealed military rocket tubes (abs). Nowadays pvc pipe can be substitued. Many people have these buried in strategic locations usually well away from your home.

[bigbabysweets]

Kind of a dead thread but here's my .02.... I'd go with the bow. Once it's learned it would probably less labor intensive as far as upkeep and replacement. How easy will it be to replace/forge internals for a musket when SHTF. Not to mention the worst case scenario deferences if they were to fail. Deep cuts to worry about infection, or a small explosion in your face. Maybe the family would be better off shooting a bows as well. That might help get more food on the table. I really couldn't see my wife or daughter shooting a muzzle loader. That's just me though..

Either way, try both pre SHTF so you'll be ready should you need to switch or barter! I personally am going to use my *silent* bow/trapping for hunting first to save on ammo anyway. When it gets bad, I don't want anyone to know where I am or what I have.....

Edited February 24, 2011 by bigbabysweets

[Guest Hoppy]

I had the same thought about creating powder. I purchased this informative book on this subject.

The Do-It-Yourself Gunpowder Cookbook by Don McLean, ISBN 13: 978-0-87364-675-8

I read it several times and understand the chemistry behind the process. If necessary, I could do this. However, the more I learn the less inclined I am to make and store my own powder. It seems very time consuming, resource intensive, and dangerous. In a survival situation, I want to minimize dangerous situations that could cause me to die. That is the point of surviving.

As an alternative, I have been creating primitive bows and arrows for practice. I am refining my techniques using modern equipment for now and will soon move to primitive carving techniques to improve that skill. This weekend I made a 76" long red oak bow (I'm a tall guy) with a 50 lb draw at 30". I have used several books to learn this skill. The best one is the Traditional Bowyers Bible. I don't have the book information in front of me right now, but it is very technical.

But, before I would spend the time to learn to make powder I would make sure I know how to reload cartridges or have a muzzleloader instead. I would prefer a muzzle loader because the thought of reloading cartridges with homemade powder is a little frightening to me, personally. If I did choose to reload, though, I would just buy a few kegs of dry powder now and forget making my own powder.

I hope this helps.

[gregintenn]

I've got more guns than my kids will ever wear out, and more than enough ammo and reloading supplies to shoot the barrel out of most of them. Why try to make black powder. I think before it gets that bad, I'm going to concentrate my efforts into helping put into place a stable government.

[Will Carry]

Man has survived because he is a social species. When the SHTF you social group will be very important. Probably more important that what arms you have. A lone wolf doesn't live for long. You must run with a pack, with a group of good, strong, morally upright people.

I think you should have a flint lock and a bow and anything else that works. You'll have to learn how to fight with all weapons, with your bare hands. You'll have to learn to live off the land, to ignore pain, ignore weather, to eat things that would make a Billygoat puke.

[Moped]

Man has survived because he is a social species. When the SHTF you social group will be very important. Probably more important that what arms you have. A lone wolf doesn't live for long. You must run with a pack, with a group of good, strong, morally upright people.

I think you should have a flint lock and a bow and anything else that works. You'll have to learn how to fight with all weapons, with your bare hands. You'll have to learn to live off the land, to ignore pain, ignore weather, to eat things that would make a Billygoat puke.

I think this is excellent advice! And a very good first start at a plan of action. I'm with Gregintenn as well. In a TEOWAWKI siuation, I think it would be extremely important to get a Government going as fast as possible. First start would be a local administration. Then go on from there.