TN: A "Pro-Carry" State?

[BornToShoot]

In Alabama, if you pass a background check, are at least 21 years of age, and have $15, the sheriff's office will hand you a Carry Permit on the spot.

In TN, you have to pay between $60 and $100 bucks to take a safety class (~8 hours including classroom and range training), then submit an application along with a $115 non-refundable fee to the state, and then wait up to 90 days to get your permit.

The TN Carry Permit process is not "pro-carry" friendly. I believe the TN process is a deterrent to most of the residents.

What is your opnion?

[Guest Ae-35]

For years Tn. was not even near "carry friendly". The law was you could not go armed period. We've come a long way... still a long way to go !!!

[Oh Shoot]

'Bout the only thing TN has over 'Bama is that TN is a shall-issue state, so local sheriffs can't futz with the process.

Dunno if any do or not in Bama, but they can deny or restrict carry on a person by person basis, which leaves room for discrimination and graft.

- OS

[Sidinman]

True enough it may be a deterrent, but they sure issued alot of 'em in the last couple of years. lol

[Jonnin]

the 90 day wait is largely due to the number of apps being processed.

The fee isnt stopping anyone. With the price of ammo and guns being what they are, and novices not knowing how to reduce those costs, the price of the class really is not that much. Ive seen new shooters eat up $50 in ammo in an hour with their shiny new .45 or 380 etc.

[leroy]

....For years Tn. was not even near "carry friendly". The law was you could not go armed period. We've come a long way... still a long way to go !!!

What Ae said in his post above. Folks always carried in Tennessee, but they simply ignored the law. I like the "shall issue" law; it takes the "disgression" out of the hands of polititians and chiefs of police and gives objective criteria (...other than personal bias and opposing political view...) for permit issue. We need (...as others have opined in other threads...) constitutional carry with a permit system (...like the one we have now...) for carry outside the state. That's where we need to go.

leroy

[Fallguy]

the 90 day wait is largely due to the number of apps being processed.

The fee isnt stopping anyone. With the price of ammo and guns being what they are, and novices not knowing how to reduce those costs, the price of the class really is not that much. Ive seen new shooters eat up $50 in ammo in an hour with their shiny new .45 or 380 etc.

I have to disagree, the initial ~$200 (class & permit) to get a permit is pretty good hill to climb. Sure some people have money and burn through ammo etc... But for many $200 is half-weeks pay or more.

You can run a background check on someone on the state's website for $29, how much more does the other parts of the permit process really cost the state?

[Steelharp]

Ive seen new shooters eat up $50 in ammo in an hour with their shiny new .45 or 380 etc.

Slow shooters...

[1gewehr]

You can run a background check on someone on the state's website for $29, how much more does the other parts of the permit process really cost the state?

Yep. It's pretty clear that in TN the Handgun Carry License is a profit center for the TN state government. For that matter, so is the $10 TICS check.

[Jonnin]

I have to disagree, the initial ~$200 (class & permit) to get a permit is pretty good hill to climb. Sure some people have money and burn through ammo etc... But for many $200 is half-weeks pay or more.

You can run a background check on someone on the state's website for $29, how much more does the other parts of the permit process really cost the state?

I was not saying I like the fees, or approve of them, or that no one struggles to pay it. I personally think the class is a total waste of time and a form of tax. I was just saying that the cost has not prevented many, many folks from getting a permit, as the classes are full every week and a lot of permits are being issued each month. Surely it would be more if the class were $40 instead, of course, and that would be a good thing.

I don't know that the state gets much of the rest of the fee for the class. I could be wrong but I thought the fee covered the instructor's pay, the range maintence, targets, insurance/liability, and other expenses (power/building/restroom/etc at the classroom, etc), as well as a small profit for the shop offering the class. Anyone know the breakdown of the price?

Personally I would see the "class" part of the permit moved to highschool classrooms (part of the drugs, booze, and sex class that all must take) so that everyone has a few hours of gun safety, even nonshooters. I would remove the useless shooting test requirement, as it does not prove competence and adds expense to the class and would be unacceptable for highschool kids (age alone is a problem here, as some would be 17 even if seniors). And, I would move toward permitless carry with a permit possible to get for travel to other states. But no one asks me.

[enfield]

There are bargains on the class, if you're lucky enough to live close enough to realize the savings. My club teaches the class for $50 and will even provide a pistol if you bring a box of .22's.

I can imagine what a gun safety class taught in public schools would look like. "Get under your desk and place your head between your knees".

[Jonnin]

There are bargains on the class, if you're lucky enough to live close enough to realize the savings. My club teaches the class for $50 and will even provide a pistol if you bring a box of .22's.

I can imagine what a gun safety class taught in public schools would look like. "Get under your desk and place your head between your knees".

If some other kid is shooting the place up, that would be acceptable (vs standing there with your mouth open).

I was thinking having disabled guns (buyback program and rejects?) that cannot be made to function used to demonstrate "don't point that thing at anyone" sort of things. This is how it works, this is what not to do, etc. This is your friend. This is your friend after you pointed an "unloaded" gun at his head an pulled the trigger. That would be a winner of a poster.

[Fallguy]

I was not saying I like the fees, or approve of them, or that no one struggles to pay it. I personally think the class is a total waste of time and a form of tax. I was just saying that the cost has not prevented many, many folks from getting a permit, as the classes are full every week and a lot of permits are being issued each month. Surely it would be more if the class were $40 instead, of course, and that would be a good thing.

I don't know that the state gets much of the rest of the fee for the class. I could be wrong but I thought the fee covered the instructor's pay, the range maintence, targets, insurance/liability, and other expenses (power/building/restroom/etc at the classroom, etc), as well as a small profit for the shop offering the class. Anyone know the breakdown of the price?

Personally I would see the "class" part of the permit moved to highschool classrooms (part of the drugs, booze, and sex class that all must take) so that everyone has a few hours of gun safety, even nonshooters. I would remove the useless shooting test requirement, as it does not prove competence and adds expense to the class and would be unacceptable for highschool kids (age alone is a problem here, as some would be 17 even if seniors). And, I would move toward permitless carry with a permit possible to get for travel to other states. But no one asks me.

I understand...while I didn't like it, I decided the cost was worth the benefit....other's haven't yet...or won't.

I'm not sure, but I didn't think any of the class fee went to the state. Other than whatever an instructor has to pay to the state to become an instructor in the first place.

Where I think the money making is going on is $115 fee to the state for the HCP.

[RobertNashville]

I may be wrong about this as I wasn't paying much attention at the time (because I was just moving to the state when our current HCP process was being debated) but if memory serves, I've been told that the state being able to make some money on the HCP process was one of the selling points/one of the reasons it got through the legislature and the governor. I admit our process is pretty expensive but thank god we at lest have it!

Moving one, the easy answer to this is for Tennessee to institute constitutional carry...were we to do that, no one would be required to go through the HCP process and only those who wanted a TN permit for reciprocity purposes would actually need to get a permit.

[Fallguy]

I may be wrong about this as I wasn't paying much attention at the time (because I was just moving to the state when our current HCP process was being debated) but if memory serves, I've been told that the state being able to make some money on the HCP process was one of the selling points/one of the reasons it got through the legislature and the governor. I admit our process is pretty expensive but thank god we at lest have it!

Could be, I didn't follow the legislature as closely then as I do know. But there are others on here that have been involved since Day 1 and may can enlighten us.

Moving one, the easy answer to this is for Tennessee to institute constitutional carry...were we to do that, no one would be required to go through the HCP process and only those who wanted a TN permit for reciprocity purposes would actually need to get a permit.

Would be good, but really don't see it happening anytime soon. I did read where KY has introduced such a bill though.

[china coaster]

enfield: I would be interested in something like you have mentioned for my wife. She needs basic knowledge and I would prefer someone else instruct her. Is your club in middle Tn and how may we contact them?

[PC7]

TN has one of, if not the most reciprocity with our HCP than any other state. This is in large part due to the class requirement. I know it costs but it is not out of line with many other states and we get a lot of reciprocity with it. Just check out the map

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html

It is basically all of the USA or at least all that matters…

Edited January 4, 2011 by PC7
Map added

[Fallguy]

The cost of the class is not that bad...the free market keeps them from costing too much. It's the cost of the pemit itself from the state that I think is too high.

[Punisher84]

I understand...while I didn't like it, I decided the cost was worth the benefit....other's haven't yet...or won't.

I'm not sure, but I didn't think any of the class fee went to the state. Other than whatever an instructor has to pay to the state to become an instructor in the first place.

Where I think the money making is going on is $115 fee to the state for the HCP.

Whatever you pay for the class is strictly in the pocket of the instructor and/or facility used. The $115 is supposed to be divided up between the agency processing the background check, printing and mailing the HCP itself, and the fingerprinting company.

How all that costs what it does I'm not sure.

[enfield]

enfield: I would be interested in something like you have mentioned for my wife. She needs basic knowledge and I would prefer someone else instruct her. Is your club in middle Tn and how may we contact them?

It's in McMinn County, Chilhowee Rod & Gun Club

[Red9MM]

My Opinion on the OP, and I may in a minority on this but I'm very glad for the class requirement for HCP here in TN.

My TN HCP (Handgun Safety Course) was very well done. I hope others received competent, thorough instruction as well. My class was $110 including range fee.

It also included the NRA Basic Pistol course integrated with all the state required elements. Others elsewhere in the state may not.

I learned a good deal about the laws surrounding carrying, , CC/OC, going armed, "No Handgun Carry Permitted" sites like schools and courthouses and how the law addresses self-defense situations, Castle doctrine, and interfacing with LEO's when carrying, Oh, and Basic Pistol Marksmanship training.

I've also learned a great deal about those things here on TGO thru the knowlege, links and resources shared by others.

To me its equivalent to getting your Drivers License and the requirement to pass a test to demonstrate understanding and operator competence is easily justified.

I support this part of our process because while I am a shooter and firearms enthusiast a great many people who own a handgun are not and aren't intrested in the aspects of safety, training, knowledge of firearms the and "practice how you shoot and shoot how you practice" mindset of many here.

Therefore I DO NOT want an uninformed/ill informed, untrained, UNSAFE populace carrying loaded pistols around "just because".

This scenario opens a HUGE RISK of (even more) senseless tragedies involving firearms becoming commonplace in our society.

Like my drivers license comparison above, untrained and unlicensed drivers on our roads are unsafe and a huge risk to the general public, an untrained & unlicensed person carring a loaded gun around is as well.

I do fully support our Second Amendment rights and (responsible) firearms freedoms for our citizenry.

I support that even moreso with a trained, informed, and involved society of gunowners practicing SAFE FIREARMS OWNERSHIP and USAGE principles.

Letting anyone who can pay the price and Pass the TICS check carry loaded firearms around anytime without boundaries does not come close to making good sense to me.

The TDOS fee (not a tax) of $115 for the HCP is a bit steep but the many phases of the process and those that provide the services for fingerprinting, background checks, permit production and recordkeeping, etc... all take pieces of that pie. My guess would be that the state might profit $20 in the end.

The Higher fees may be because of A MUCH higher risk involved! Carrying a loaded hangun in public for 4 yrs. $115 vs. Drivers License renewal for 5yrs @ $19.50.

Would I like to see a lower fee for the initial HCP? Sure! It would help me and help others who do have a more meager income than mine to become responsible (hopefully) handgun carrier's for their personal protection needs. Doing this would require cost cuts which is fine, but not at the expense of gutting a process that finally seems to be working as well as any state program could be expected to, OR increasing risks to the publics safety by removing measures put there to safeguard Tennesseans and others via our reciprocity agreements with other states. Which might void their agreements due to a boneheaded move "to cut costs".

IF IT AIN"T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT. IMO, It aint broke.

I applied for my permit last Oct. 29 and got my permit in the mail Nov. 19. Less than a month, 21 days actually. I know many here had to wait several months in 2008/2009 for their HCP to arrive. I'm sorry that was the case for them.

Pro-Carry / Carry Friendly TN....

I support more TRAINED, INFORMED, and (hopefully) INVOLVED HCP Permitted citizens (with propper vetting) here in TN and the US but NOT a Wild West Free for All of anyone who wants to be allowed to "Go Armed" with a Wink and a Nod.

[Oh Shoot]

....The Higher fees may be because of A MUCH higher risk involved! Carrying a loaded hangun in public for 4 yrs. $115 vs. Drivers License renewal for 5yrs @ $19.50....

Poor analogy, methinks. Your odds of hurting yourself/being hurt or hurting others in auto accident are many many times higher than same from carrying a weapon.

- OS

[BornToShoot]

I'm not opposed to the class...it's a good idea.

A standard TN driver's license costs ~$20. A small game hunting license costs $28 plus if you were born after some date in 1969, you have to take the Hunter Safety class and pay $24.50. In my county, the median income is ~$36K per year. ($115 state + ~$100 class) for a carry permit is alot of cash.

The fact is that the state is in bad shape financially with no improvement in sight since we rely on revenue from property taxes, license fees, and sales tax and haven't been smart enough to realize that raising sales tax doesn't always equal more income (it just forces folks to shop outside the state...yeah I know most folks will disagree with this statement, but I'd sure like to see the estimate on how much revenue would increase if we lowered our sales tax to less than our surrounding states.)

Would you still get a carry permit if it cost $230 state + $60 class; how about $345 state + $60 class?

The state has ~6.5M folks. Let's say half are at least 21 years old. Data from 2000 shows 3.5% of TN total population has a carry permit. Why not target the remaining 46.5% by lowering the permit fee to say $25? ($25*3M folks=$75M)

Edited January 5, 2011 by BornToShoot

[Red9MM]

-OS

Yeah I should have come up with something better for the comparison.

But I didn't want to prowl the state websites looking for fee charges and I was trying to find a commonly issued/well known state fee people could relate too on a cost camparison/ risk comaprison.

What would you suggest instead and I'll edit it.

Red9MM

[Oh Shoot]

-OS

Yeah I should have come up with something better for the comparison.

But I didn't want to prowl the state websites looking for fee charges and I was trying to find a commonly issued/well known state fee people could relate too on a cost camparison/ risk comaprison.

What would you suggest instead and I'll edit it.

Red9MM

I pretty much believe in both the US and TN constitutions -- neither of which indicate that a permit is necessary for bearing weapons period. Even a free one.

- OS