Which are you more afraid of?

[Guest Octo]

Off-topic: In case of drug addict mugging, employ these tactics.

On-topic: Anyone on PCP. Not an option...but it damn well should be.

[Guest pontiac_fiero_g]

Not when he goes on to say how nice Meth and Crack heads are, but how evil pill heads are...

Sorry, substance abusers are generally pretty much the same, or eventually end up the same, no matter what their drug of preference is.

that is entirely untrue, all users are not the same. you cant possibly beleive that a drunk, and daytripper or a methhead and a pothead are the same. and who the hell are you to say that one drug is worse than another or that people cant put into their bodies whatever they please? do you ever have a beer? well thats a drug and alters your minds function just like if you smoke a joint your mind is altered, just like all other drugs. so i guess that means that if all substance users are the same no matter what their drug of prefernce is then you having a beer or smoking a cigarette makes you the same as a scuzzy used up crack whore doesnt it? well i dont think so but by your logic it does

[Mike.357]

[Chucktshoes]

[mikegideon]

Pause...

[Guest Jamie]

that is entirely untrue, all users are not the same. you cant possibly beleive that a drunk, and daytripper or a methhead and a pothead are the same.

Yeah, I can. Or didn't you catch what I said earlier? Here, I'll repeat it for you:

Sorry, substance abusers are generally pretty much the same, or eventually end up the same, no matter what their drug of preference is.

and who the hell are you to say that one drug is worse than another or that people cant put into their bodies whatever they please?

Hey, Einstein... try putting a brain cell in gear and re-read what I said: substance abusers are generally pretty much the same.

There... I even changed the color of the word you need to pay particular attention to. It's the red one.

Also, YOU are the one that said "pillheads are about the worst", remember?

do you ever have a beer? well thats a drug and alters your minds function just like if you smoke a joint your mind is altered, just like all other drugs. so i guess that means that if all substance users are the same no matter what their drug of prefernce is then you having a beer or smoking a cigarette makes you the same as a scuzzy used up crack whore doesnt it? well i dont think so but by your logic it does

Well, let's see... at this point in the game, neither alcohol or nicotine are illegal to consume. They don't require a person to break the law, use dangerous chemicals to create, or, generally, screw people's minds up to the point that they'll do anything at all to get their next dose. Yes, they can be abused, just like anything else, and they can ruin a person's health. But they don't usually set a person on a bad path that is filled with constant trips to jail and in front of a judge, as well as DEATH, just from typical or "normal" use.

If I run out of booze, it's no big deal... I'll get over it. If I run out of cigs, it's only a slightly bigger deal, but I'll get over that too. I won't be breaking into my neighbor's house or robbing anybody. I won't have to find somebody who's got a criminal record as long as my arm, and who really couldn't care less if I live or die, to get any more, either.

I can walk into a store, buy a carton of cigarettes, drive down to the liquor store and pick out anything I want, then drive home... all without having to look over my shoulder for a patrol car, or worrying about who may come knocking at my door.

In other words, I don't have to engage in any stupid, dangerous, or illegal behavior at all.

So, how so you figure that's the same as "a daytripper or a methhead and a pothead"?

Oh, and you can go ahead and throw a pillhead and an alcoholic in there too, since their behavior has also become stupid and dangerous, due to both abuse and addiction.

By the way, junior... I've had more than a little experience dealing with substance abusers of all types. I know exactly what they are like, and what the chemicals they put in their bodies can do. So I'll stand by what I've said, all the way down the line.

One other thing I'll add... people who are the most apt to abuse any substance, legal or otherwise, also generally fit into the same type or category. But I won't waste my effort in detailing that here, or to you.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Jamie

[Guest Jamie]

Pause...

Sorry, I was typing... and my cig and my drink kept getting in the way...

By the way, I've noticed that meth and crack both seriously f**k up a person's typing and general communications skills...

[mikegideon]

Sorry, I was typing......

I know

[Guest Jamie]

I know

Yeah, well now I gotta go let the dogs out, so I'll be back in a few.

And don't get testy about it, or I might have to taze ya....

[Dolomite_supafly]

I have had close personal experiences with most types of addicts while in LE. I have also had some closer experiences with family as well. Here is what I have noticed.

Crackheads generally tolerate withdrawls better than most others. The reason is cocaine is not so much a physical addiction as it is a mental addiction. Most crackheads would lay down and sleep for a day or two as they withdrawl. After the withdrawl most seemed much more normal. But when they would come in their movements would be exagerated as well as their thought processes, they rarely made sense if they were using heavily. We had some that were violent but no where near as much as meth or oxy users or alcoholics.

Meth heads tend to be more violent than cocaine users. Add in a heavy dose of paranoia from the meth and you have the makings for a very violent person. The meth users are wanting the drug so bad that I have seen users who have been in jail buy the urine from new arrestees so they can drink it. The meth is still strong enough in the urine to give people who aren't using a high. To me that says a lot about the addictive properties for it to make someone drink the urine of a, often complete, stranger.

Pill/opiate/oxy users are more violent than most others because of one reason. The withdrawls are physically very, very painful. I am not talking about small pains but excruciating pain throughout the body. I have had users tell me it is like their bones are slowly being broken. They get awful muscle cramps as well as really bad stomach cramps caused by the severe diarrhea during the withdrawl process. The pain is so severe that they often can't sleep causing even more physical problems. Most users get to a point that the drugs do not make them high anymore but they continue to use to ward off the awful effects of the withdrawl. Pain is a powerful motivator that can push most people over the edge.

As far as alcoholics go they seem to be in two categories, mellow and violent. The mellow ones tend to remain mellow when they are intoxicated. The violent ones tend to be violent when they drink. Even if the violent ones don't seem like they are mad they tend to be set of rather easily. I can not tell you how many times I have had a drunk try to fight me after being arrested and luckily alcohol affects the coordination enough that it ended quickly.

As far as being violent I would say opiate (oxy) users are at the top followed by meth users followed by alcoholics then cocaine users. If a user combines any two of these they are going to be much more violent and unpredictable. Most substance abusers do combine drugs. I have rarely seen an abuser that didn't abuse another substance at the same time as their drug of choice.

My brother, at his worst, was using alcohol, crack, meth, oxy and marijuana daily. This made him a very dangerous and unpredictable person. He has tried to kill my family and I twice now. When we were still on speaking terms he said after he had been using meth for a few days he hid in the bushes with an SKS waiting for LE to show up so he could kill them. I asked why and he said he thought they were trying to get him. While using he has assaulted our mother by pushing her as well as smearing infected body fluids on her but I think that was when he was on the verge of withdrawls from opiates more so than meth. To this day he is still very paranoid and often thinks people are after him. Most recent reports is he is caring a pistol to defend himself from strangers who might be after him. He is supposed to be on medication to settle his paranoia down but he sells those to fund his drug habit.

Dolomite

[BryanP]

My experience with addicts is that they're more dangerous to your personal life than your physical life.

Straight from the mouth a prescription-drug addict who was trying to quit:

"Rule number one: Addicts lie. Rule number two: ADDICTS LIE. Always remember that."

[Guest Lester Weevils]

It is somewhat controversial exactly how severe narcotic withdrawal really is. A Narconon worker told me that the symptoms are about the same as a bad case of the flu. Narconon workers are typically recovered addicts, so the fellow probably knew of what he spoke.

Of course a bad case of the flu ain't no fun, but is not the end of the world. The narconon worker said that, because narcotics are such fabulous pain relievers, that a long-term user has basically "felt no pain" for a long time (except mild withdrawal symptoms between doses).

Because the narcotic addict is no longer accustomed to pain, the pain level commensurate with full cold turkey withdrawal is perceived as much worse by an addict, than that same amount of pain would be felt by a normal person accustomed to occasional day-to-day aches and pains.

Maybe that is incorrect info. Just throwing it out for what it is worth.

Substance abuse often had a functional definition as substance use which causes the person serious life problems. Perhaps nowadays that functional definition has fallen out of favor. Haven't kept current on the topic.

Often the serious life problems were correlated with heavy regular consumption, but not always. The typical alcoholic entering the treatment center I worked at, would report daily usage in the ballpark of a quart of whiskey per day, or a case of beer per day for the beer drinkers, or a gallon of wine per day for the winos.

The heroin addicts would rate their habit in dollars per day, which was typically in the ballpark of $100 to $400 a day back in the 1970's. That was a lot of money back then. If they were admitted voluntarily rather than as a condition of a criminal case, often the motivation for quitting was that the habit had got so expensive they just couldn't steal enough to feed the habit any more.

But we had doctors, nurses, and pharmacist clients who just couldn't handle real life without sampling the tools of the trade, and after awhile they couldn't function at all and had to do something about it.

People most likely to die from withdrawal were severe alcoholics and barbituate addicts. Without proper in-patient medical management, cold turkey from those two can be very hazardous.

Some people had serious substance problems even though they did not consume very much or often.

A person who over-doses or gets arrested the first time he takes a drug would of course have a serious problem though the usage amount is trivial.

We had some binge drinker clients who had serious problems but only minor consumption. The kind of guy who goes out drinking and gets beat up in a fight. Then he stays sober for many months, and then goes out drinking and loses his wallet. Then he stays sober for many more months and then goes out drinking and trips on a street curb and breaks his leg. Really bad luck every time the guy takes a drink. Obviously that kind of guy can't afford to ever take a drink.

[Guest pontiac_fiero_g]

Yeah, I can. Or didn't you catch what I said earlier? Here, I'll repeat it for you:

Sorry, substance abusers are generally pretty much the same, or eventually end up the same, no matter what their drug of preference is.

Hey, Einstein... try putting a brain cell in gear and re-read what I said: substance abusers are generally pretty much the same.

There... I even changed the color of the word you need to pay particular attention to. It's the red one.

Also, YOU are the one that said "pillheads are about the worst", remember?

Well, let's see... at this point in the game, neither alcohol or nicotine are illegal to consume. They don't require a person to break the law, use dangerous chemicals to create, or, generally, screw people's minds up to the point that they'll do anything at all to get their next dose. Yes, they can be abused, just like anything else, and they can ruin a person's health. But they don't usually set a person on a bad path that is filled with constant trips to jail and in front of a judge, as well as DEATH, just from typical or "normal" use.

your correct that it is not illegal to consume alchahol but they do lead to breaking the law(dui and domestic violence) and alcohol is a dangerous chemical if you havent noticed there is this thing called alcohol posining, and it does screw peoples minds up, my best friend is a 64yo vietnam vet who is the worst alcoholic ive seen(and i know a few) he cant function without drinking and i see him consume usually a couple fifths of vodka and a case of beer on a daily basis and usually that doesnt even get him drunk so it obviously does screw people up. and i do beleive alcohol does lead you on a bad path, the first time i smoked pot it was because i was at a party as a teenager drinking and pot was offered so i took it and then me and a neighbor were smoking pot and he just happened to have some meth too and so i smoked with him and so on and so forth.

If I run out of booze, it's no big deal... I'll get over it. If I run out of cigs, it's only a slightly bigger deal, but I'll get over that too. I won't be breaking into my neighbor's house or robbing anybody. I won't have to find somebody who's got a criminal record as long as my arm, and who really couldn't care less if I live or die, to get any more, either.

I can walk into a store, buy a carton of cigarettes, drive down to the liquor store and pick out anything I want, then drive home... all without having to look over my shoulder for a patrol car, or worrying about who may come knocking at my door.

In other words, I don't have to engage in any stupid, dangerous, or illegal behavior at all.

70 years ago you would go to prison for liquor but did that mean it was wrong? no it was just illegal and there is a huge differnce between morally wrong and illegal.

So, how so you figure that's the same as "a daytripper or a methhead and a pothead"?

they are not the same that was my point.

Oh, and you can go ahead and throw a pillhead and an alcoholic in there too, since their behavior has also become stupid and dangerous, due to both abuse and addiction.

By the way, junior... I've had more than a little experience dealing with substance abusers of all types. I know exactly what they are like, and what the chemicals they put in their bodies can do. So I'll stand by what I've said, all the way down the line.

you have dealt with substance abusers but ive dealt with substance abuse first hand so i think ive got a little more expereince on the subject.

One other thing I'll add... people who are the most apt to abuse any substance, legal or otherwise, also generally fit into the same type or category. But I won't waste my effort in detailing that here, or to you.

im honestly more afraid of extreme communist such as yourself who feel it is there need to dictate to others what they can and cannot do to themselves and what they can put into their own bodies than i am anytype of drug addict.

this is my last post in this thread so have fun arguing with yourself

[Mike.357]

People have a right to put what they want in their bodies up to the point it affects other people.

Pills, Meth and Crack cause more heartache and crime than just about anything I can imagine. How can you advocate that the use of such things is just fine?

WTF, wrong is wrong and using these drugs is damn wrong.

[Guest Jamie]

Oh boy... this is gonna take a minute to sort out, since you apparently can't handle English, grammar, punctuation... and a number of other communications-related items. You also seem to be more than a little ignorant of psychology, physiology, as well as cause and effect.

But I'll have a go at it anyway.

your correct that it is not illegal to consume alchahol but they do lead to breaking the law(dui and domestic violence)

Worked more than a few alcohol-related accidents, and more domestic violence calls than I'd care to think about. Most of the alcohol-related stuff involved KIDS. Under 18-year-old people who THOUGHT they could drink and still handle a car or truck. And yeah, it was the alcohol impairment that was the actual mechanism that killed them, but it was their own ignorance, stupidity, and arrogance that caused them to drink the booze in the first place, then get behind the wheel. The alcohol didn't lead to their behavior and judgment... their behavior and judgment lead to the alcohol.

Domestic violence... heh. See the above-paragraph. Instead of sub-18 year-olds, substitute mentally weak, immature, sometimes emotionally-unstable adults. People who, instead of dealing with their problems, try to drink, smoke, inject, or otherwise hide from their problems inside some chemically-induced haze, instead of dealing with them.

It's like throwing jet fuel on a camp fire.

But then, those are the usual types of people you encounter on the typical domestic violence calls, even without the chemicals. Only sometimes, instead of bothering with a drink first, they simply start swinging, and try to physically beat anybody that they think is the source of their problems, or who won't allow them to hide from their problems.

....and alcohol is a dangerous chemical if you havent noticed there is this thing called alcohol posining,

Drink enough WATER and it will kill you. Try to inhale it and it will kill you. Does that make it a dangerous chemical too? Too much of anything can and will be bad for a person. Some things though, are toxic in ANY amount. Or, if it's consumed in the wrong way. Heard anything about the nutmeg craze, here recently? People snorting the stuff to get high... and then ending up dead or with brain damage because of it. So what's the problem there, the substance, or the stupid behavior? Do we make a spice rack a licensed item now because a bunch of dumbasses off themselves doing something they shouldn't have?

Personally, I'm inclined to let 'em keep killing themselves, and the rest of us just go on about our business. But too many bleeding-heart types wanna save them from themselves, so there's no telling what will happen.

.... and it does screw peoples minds up, my best friend is a 64yo vietnam vet who is the worst alcoholic ive seen(and i know a few) he cant function without drinking and i see him consume usually a couple fifths of vodka and a case of beer on a daily basis and usually that doesnt even get him drunk so it obviously does screw people up.

Oh, I'm sure your friend is quite messed-up. Got a close relative who's the same way, for the same reason. But here's another lesson in cause and effect for ya:

Ever hear of Post Traumatic Stress disorder? Lots of soldiers came back from Vietnam - and every other war that's ever been - in the same condition.

And were ignored.

Since they didn't know how to handle it themselves, they more or less "self-medicated". Drugs, alcohol, and any number of other ways or means they could think of, in an attempt at getting away from what was the real problem.

Unfortunately, like your friend, most of their "cures" ended up being as bad for them and on them as the real cause... the original problem.

So in the end, you can't blame the substance for that particular behavior either. At least not any more than you can blame prescription drugs for what some people do with them that results in their medical or legal problems, or even their deaths.

...and i do beleive alcohol does lead you on a bad path, the first time i smoked pot it was because i was at a party as a teenager drinking and pot was offered so i took it and then me and a neighbor were smoking pot and he just happened to have some meth too and so i smoked with him and so on and so forth.

And I believe that alcohol and other drugs or chemicals only accelerate what stupidity, arrogance, ignorance, and a variety of other problems started.

im honestly more afraid of extreme communist such as yourself who feel it is there need to dictate to others what they can and cannot do to themselves and what they can put into their own bodies than i am anytype of drug addict. this is my last post in this thread so have fun arguing with yourself

And I am more afraid of ignorant, arrogant, and foolish people, and what others will do to protect them from themselves, than I am anything else in this world.

I would much prefer that anyone who wanted to drink, smoke, inject, etc. any chemical they wanted to were allowed to do so, provided they harmed no one else, and without anyone else having to pay a price for that.

Don't bother paying to maintain prisons, don't worry about "rehabilitating" them... especially against their will. Don't try to save them from themselves, don't interfere with their choices.

No, I'm not for any of that. Which, by the way, is what this...

70 years ago you would go to prison for liquor but did that mean it was wrong? no it was just illegal and there is a huge differnce between morally wrong and illegal.

...was about. Nothing more than a group of people trying to save other folks from themselves... or so they thought. Didn't work, and didn't last very long though.

No, I'm all for letting them kill themselves, however, or executing them on the spot if their choice harms anyone else at all, either directly or indirectly.

you have dealt with substance abusers but ive dealt with substance abuse first hand so i think ive got a little more expereince on the subject.

Hmm...I've dealt with people like that - and like you - for longer than you've even been alive. So no, I'm not arguing with you. I'm simply telling you how it is.

I will say this... it'll be nice not to hear from you again. Trying to untwist your typing gives me a headache.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Jamie

[mikegideon]

Hey guys,

Check the linkbacks. Looks like our buddy pontiac_fiero is recruiting some trolls.

[Garufa]

I did not know that was there.

Ya'll are in for it now, the car stereo experts are gonna come start thumpin'.

[mikegideon]

I hope they bring some punctuation this time

[Guest Jamie]

I hope they bring a brain cell... Preferably a non-drug fried one....

And yes, I'm quite sure Pontiac needs help. All he can get, plus some.

C'mon trolls... here I am.

[Mike.357]

well this may not end well

[mikegideon]

[Guest Jamie]

well this may not end well

I'm sure it won't.

I'm also fairly sure of who it won't end well for.

[Guest Jamie]

Nope, not my job any more... I hung up my badge, remember?

But I'll do my best to make sure they get noticed by those who's job it is.

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

Check second post on page four of this thread from the link-backed forum........

WOW Dude kinda contradicts his claims here of being all cleaned up, he's still smoking weed as best I can gather from the post.

Do U Know People With Mental Issues ? - Page 4 - CarAudioForum.com

[Guest Jamie]

WOW Dude kinda contradicts his claims here of being all cleaned up, he's still smoking weed as best I can gather from the post.

I could have told you that without him ever saying so. His patterns of "speech" and general thinking sure fit the type.

Always justifying their actions, those ones... or trying to. And never quite succeeding.