jurisdiction question, City police on the interstate.

[vontar]

For those who don't know oliver springs is a small town of 3000 that is in 3 counties Morgan, Anderson and Roane. Highways 61 and 62 meet and run together for about 4 miles through Oliver Springs and is a major gateway for people who work in Knoxville and Oak Ridge. They have gained a reputation IN THE PAST of writing tickets mainly to people with Morgan co tags. I want to stress in the past, I haven't heard of it as much recently. But their latest scam is a construction zone that has been vacant for almost 3 months now and the speed limit drops from 45 to 30. Which when workers are present is great but like I said nothing has been moved there for quite some time now.

Funny you brought up a contraction zone. This is a different thing, different city all together. Over Christmas I was in Hazard KY. As I entered down town a local City LEO fell in behind me, very close, certainly close enough to read my tag. He was following me so close that had I been following someone I would have got a ticket for tailgating. Anyways I watched my speed, I was already about 5 under as right when I saw him I saw a posted sign that said 35 and there was a side of the road Your Speed is stating i was doing 30, which matched my speed in the car. He as following me and it had been probably 6 months or so since I had been though there. Narrow one way street (2 lane street with people parked on both sides, I would hate to drive side by side with someone). There was 2 brand new 4 way stop signs that had never been there before. I barely noticed the first one. I stopped in time. He followed me thought both of those and the next one as well

He followed me for about 4 miles all the way to a empty construction zone, that was 15 mph for less then 1000 feet, because it was for a side road. That construction zone I believe has been there every since I have been seeing my wife many years ago. No, i was not stopped I was expecting it though. Interesting the side road was marked closed as well, although people were driving across that bridge and there was no sign of construction equipment , just the signs and a few barrels.

(I do know construction zones can be double fine areas so yes I follow the speed limit to the letter there, I don't risk it)

[Fallguy]

I'll see if I can find it, but seems I remember a bill in the legislature last session that was directly on this topic.

I could be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure that a PD and it's officers had to meet certain requirments before the bould "run radar" on the interstate.

Will see what I can find and get back...

[Fallguy]

Well still not 100% sure this is what I was thinking of, but it seems to confirm kb4ns information.

There was HB1230/SB1888 (that didn't move) that would have effected how fines were distributed in a cities with a population of less than 5000.

But it references 55-10-308 (that was amended by Public Chapter 966) that says...

Where chapter 8 of this title and §§ 55-10-101 — 55-10-310 apply to territory within the limits of a municipality, the primary responsibility for enforcing the sections shall be on the municipality which shall be further authorized to enforce the additional ordinances for the regulation of the operation of vehicles as it deems proper; provided, however, that any municipality having a population of ten thousand (10,000) or less, according to the 2000 federal census or any subsequent federal census, must exercise the authority conferred by this section in full compliance with the rules promulgated by the commissioner of safety to regulate enforcement of chapter 8 of this title and §§ 55-10-101 — 55-10-310, on the portions of any highway designated and known as part of the national system of interstate and defense highways lying within the territorial limits of the municipalities; provided, that this restriction shall not apply to drug interdiction officers employed by the municipality while the officers are actively serving with any judicial district drug force.

If I am reading it right...it seems cities with a population of 10,000 or less can not enforce city ordnances on the interstate, but only what it mentions in the TCA. (Except for Drug interdiction officer while actively serving with judicial drug task force)

Edited January 3, 2011 by Fallguy

[Guest RevScottie]

Here is a example of just how "sticky" things can get when an arrest is made outside the arresting officers jurisdiction:

8/16/2010 - Red Bank Sued By Man Claiming Illegal Traffic Stop - Breaking News - Chattanoogan.com

Seems the arresting officer observed someone DUI but followed him outside her jurisdiction to make the stop. From there it seems she must have violated department procedure and now the guy has brought a lawsuit.

[kb4ns]

Here is a example of just how "sticky" things can get when an arrest is made outside the arresting officers jurisdiction:

8/16/2010 - Red Bank Sued By Man Claiming Illegal Traffic Stop - Breaking News - Chattanoogan.com

Seems the arresting officer observed someone DUI but followed him outside her jurisdiction to make the stop. From there it seems she must have violated department procedure and now the guy has brought a lawsuit.

Wow. Sounds like a lot of folks were involved who don't know what the heck they were doing.

[DaveTN]

Wow. Sounds like a lot of folks were involved who don't know what the heck they were doing.

Yes it does.

However “City Police Policy†is not state law. I’m still not following why anyone thinks there is a jurisdictional dispute. Is she not a sworn Police Officer?

It says Murray eventually was convicted in General Sessions Court of DUI.

Did no one question the legality of the arrest at this hearing?

If they did a Judge has ruled it a lawful arrest and this is nothing but a nuisance suit that will get kicked.

Calling your husband (from another department) for back-up sounds like a mess waiting to happen…But who knows.

[Fallguy]

Yes it does.

However “City Police Policy” is not state law. I’m still not following why anyone thinks there is a jurisdictional dispute. Is she not a sworn Police Officer?

Not sure about in this case, but there are times when Dept Policy trumps state law, per state law.

Just like the law that allows LEOs to carry anywhere within the state. That same law says any policy the CLEO of the agency the LEO works for issues supersedes that law.

....and even if it is legal arrest per law, it still doesn't mean the officer didn't violate her agencies policy and therefore the suit could have some merit.

[DaveTN]

Not sure about in this case, but there are times when Dept Policy trumps state law, per state law.

Department Policy isn’t law; it can’t trump state law. That’s just a very basic point of law that is not defined by state. Is there something in Tennessee state law that says a Chief or Sheriff can override the state legislature?

Just like the law that allows LEOs to carry anywhere within the state. That same law says any policy the CLEO of the agency the LEO works for issues supersedes that law.

That’s not Department Policy trumping or superseding state law. That is just state law giving a CLEO options.

....and even if it is legal arrest per law, it still doesn't mean the officer didn't violate her agencies policy and therefore the suit could have some merit.

Anything can happen in civil court. I mean after all…. He found an attorney to take his case.

We’ll just have to wait and see how it goes.

[Fallguy]

All 3 points taken...

[Guest RevScottie]

Yes it does.

However “City Police Policy” is not state law. I’m still not following why anyone thinks there is a jurisdictional dispute. Is she not a sworn Police Officer?

Did no one question the legality of the arrest at this hearing?

If they did a Judge has ruled it a lawful arrest and this is nothing but a nuisance suit that will get kicked.

Calling your husband (from another department) for back-up sounds like a mess waiting to happen…But who knows.

It did seem that when the original arrest was made the county magistrate saw some problem with it: "Officer Chauncy called Magistrate Bob Davis at the jail and he declined to sign an arrest warrant based on the facts."

If i am thinking correctly the officer had to exit Red Bank, travel through Chattanooga, and then into Soddy Daisy before pulling the car over and making the arrest. Apparently she did not notify LEO in either of those districts but called her husband who is a Hamilton County officer instead. I would agree that it may have more to do with departmental policy than state law but if that is true I wonder why the magistrate declined to sign the arrest warrant? Fear of lawsuit?

[Fallguy]

Really not trying to start an argument here, just a honest question......

But you know the state issues permits and licenses that aren't valid statewide or 24/7 (Security Guard is one that comes to mind). It simply allows them to do whatever within the scope of their employment. Of course LEOs don't have a permit/license but rather a commision/certification issued by the state. But still, isn't their scope of employment to enforce the laws within the legal boundries of whatever state policital sub-divsion hired them?

I don't argue that LEOs can arrest statewide, but any resident of the state can arrest someone statewide. ...and of course if a LEO observes a violation within whatever "jurisdiction" they work for they can pursue the violator outside those boundries to make an arrest.

But where exaclty does it say a commisioned LEO in this state, under the color of authority, can enforce state laws anywhere within this state?

[DaveTN]

It did seem that when the original arrest was made the county magistrate saw some problem with it: "Officer Chauncy called Magistrate Bob Davis at the jail and he declined to sign an arrest warrant based on the facts."

If i am thinking correctly the officer had to exit Red Bank, travel through Chattanooga, and then into Soddy Daisy before pulling the car over and making the arrest. Apparently she did not notify LEO in either of those districts but called her husband who is a Hamilton County officer instead. I would agree that it may have more to do with departmental policy than state law but if that is true I wonder why the magistrate declined to sign the arrest warrant? Fear of lawsuit?

I’m still confused.

1. We never had to deal with arrest warrants or Judges signing anything on an arrest. That is neither here nor there, but I am making an assumption that the legality of this arrest was questioned by pre-trial motions when this guy went to court on the DUI???

He was either convicted or made a plea on the DUI.

It makes me wonder did he go to court on this DUI with no representation, or was the arrest questioned and Judged ruled it lawful?

2. Jurisdictional disputes.

Just because the person is claiming the Officer was out of her jurisdiction doesn’t mean that the arrest won’t stand. Kb4ns explained that it is pretty much the same way it was for us in Illinois; Police Officers jurisdictions are the state line. Many times I followed a vehicle out of our city limits and into smaller towns around us. Notifying them was a courtesy; not a requirement. We usually notified them if we were going into their town to arrest someone, but didn’t normally do it on vehicle stops. One of our Officers would come out and back us up.

However….. unlike Illinois it is my understanding that Tennessee has “Law Enforcement Officers†(for lack of a better word) that are not state certified Police Officers. I even saw one member here say that he is a reserve or auxiliary Deputy and Patrols by himself. Could that be a factor in this case limiting jurisdiction?

DISCLAMER: Before the azzhats start saying “This isn’t Illinois†I fully understand. I am using my experience in Illinois for comparison only.

[Guest RevScottie]

The only sure things are that LEOs will continue to be frustrated by criminals released due to technicalities and lawyers will continue to make a great deal of money helping their clients find those technicalities

[kb4ns]

Really not trying to start an argument here, just a honest question......

But you know the state issues permits and licenses that aren't valid statewide or 24/7 (Security Guard is one that comes to mind). It simply allows them to do whatever within the scope of their employment. Of course LEOs don't have a permit/license but rather a commision/certification issued by the state. But still, isn't their scope of employment to enforce the laws within the legal boundries of whatever state policital sub-divsion hired them?

I don't argue that LEOs can arrest statewide, but any resident of the state can arrest someone statewide. ...and of course if a LEO observes a violation within whatever "jurisdiction" they work for they can pursue the violator outside those boundries to make an arrest.

But where exaclty does it say a commisioned LEO in this state, under the color of authority, can enforce state laws anywhere within this state?

I've been looking through TCA and AG opinions and cannot find anything. I think it is another one of those situations where you will not find a "NO" spelled out, so it's left to whomever to infer. 38-8-101 and other statutes that define LEOs fail to impose restrictions based on jurisdictional boundaries. They mainly just define a police officer as "person employed by any municipality or political subdivision of the state of Tennessee whose primary responsibility is the prevention and detection of crime, and the apprehension of offenders." Maybe there is case law on it somewhere that I'm not finding?

[Fallguy]

I've been looking through TCA and AG opinions and cannot find anything. I think it is another one of those situations where you will not find a "NO" spelled out, so it's left to whomever to infer. 38-8-101 and other statutes that define LEOs fail to impose restrictions based on jurisdictional boundaries. They mainly just define a police officer as "person employed by any municipality or political subdivision of the state of Tennessee whose primary responsibility is the prevention and detection of crime, and the apprehension of offenders." Maybe there is case law on it somewhere that I'm not finding?

At least I don't feel so blind now...lol

I doubt I get a response but I sent an e-mail to the TLETA/POST commission asking about this. If I get any response I'll post it.

[DaveTN]

Check this out…..

40-7-118. Use of citations in lieu of continued custody of an arrested person. —

Pay attention to the DUI part. It doesn’t apply to the jurisdiction question but appears to address the custody part.

[kb4ns]

Check this out…..

40-7-118. Use of citations in lieu of continued custody of an arrested person. —

Pay attention to the DUI part. It doesn’t apply to the jurisdiction question but appears to address the custody part.

That's just saying that DUI is one of the few misdemeanors an officer cannot issue a misdemeanor citation in lieu of continued custody and must transport the arrested person to jail for. With the exception of when they need medical treatment. If they need medical treatment, they can be issued a misdemeanor cite so an officer doesn't have to sit with them all night (or longer) at the hospital.

Or did I miss something?

[Fallguy]

I sent my e-mail to the General e-mail address for the TLETA. I got a response from Instructor Dale Robinson who teaches the Legal class at the TLETA

City officers have full police powers in their city of employment and up to 1 mile out of the city. Beyond that they are citizens unless in pursuit of one who committed a crime within their jurisdiction.

County officers have full police powers in their counties only, except as mentioned above.

As I said this is from the guy who teaches the Legal class at the academy. So it seems either a lot of LEOs are not paying attention in class or are otherwise badly misinformed.

I addressed Officers of a Judicial Drug Task Force and Special Deputies (which is what I think a deputy from another county is considered when he crosses a county line and ask for permission) in my original e-mail and said I understand those officer have powers outside of their normal place of employment.

I know in the grand scheme of things this probably changes nothing....but well.....

[kb4ns]

I sent my e-mail to the General e-mail address for the TLETA. I got a response from Instructor Dale Robinson who teaches the Legal class at the TLETA

As I said this is from the guy who teaches the Legal class at the academy. So it seems either a lot of LEOs are not paying attention in class or are otherwise badly misinformed.

I addressed Officers of a Judicial Drug Task Force and Special Deputies (which is what I think a deputy from another county is considered when he crosses a county line and ask for permission) in my original e-mail and said I understand those officer have powers outside of their normal place of employment.

I know in the grand scheme of things this probably changes nothing....but well.....

Hmm. Sounds gray either way. The only thing I'm curious about, though, is how the "police team" doctrine would apply to officers outside their jurisdiction. I'm not at home at the moment, but search the Tenn AG opinions for the term "police team doctrine". There was an opinion issued in the last few years that, from what I recall, makes me wonder if jurisdiction matters one way or the other as long as an officer of the jurisdiction does the paperwork. Or maybe I'm forgetting an important part of the puzzle.

[DaveTN]

Beyond that they are citizens

Wow… So a Nashville cop observes an armed robbery in Murfreesboro and he has no Police powers?

That’s pretty wild.

[kb4ns]

Wow… So a Nashville cop observes an armed robbery in Murfreesboro and he has no Police powers?

That’s pretty wild.

Yeah, sounds a little odd to me, too. It goes against everything I've ever been taught. I'm trying to find an email address for one of the law instructors I had in the academy here. This has me rather intrigued now.

[DaveTN]

I'm trying to find an email address for one of the law instructors I had in the academy here.

You guys will just be a battle of the instructors.

Which reminds me of the saying “Those who can….do, those who can’t….teach.â€

But anyway… Where is all this stuff documented? TCA?? This “one mile†business would need to be documented somewhere. Searching TCA gets three hits; none of them have to do with cops.

[kb4ns]

But anyway… Where is all this stuff documented? TCA?? This “one mile” business would need to be documented somewhere. Searching TCA gets three hits; none of them have to do with cops.

6-54-301 is the "one-mile" stuff.

Can't find an email address for one of the law instructors, but I got into a conversation with another officer who is a little closer to remembering the academy days than myself. He said the way it was explained is this- TCA 40-7-101 says that arrests may be made by the following persons; (1) an officer with a warrant, (2) an officer without a warrant, (3) a private person. Officer is defined throughout TCA (person employed by any municipality or political subdivision of the state of Tennessee whose primary responsibility is the prevention and detection of crime, and the apprehension of offenders). There's no exclusion to an officer's powers of arrest under 40-7-101 based on jurisdiction, on or off-duty status, etc. Therefore, it's generally considered that the lack of restrictions is legislative intent to allow LEOs to retain powers at all times and in all places within the state.

Makes sense to me. If you look at White V. Revco Discount Drug Centers Inc. (2000), the court ruled that in Tennessee, police officers have the "full panoply of 'official' police powers even when they are off-duty". This case was in regards to a Knoxville officer making an arrest while he was off-duty. Not quite the same issue we have at hand, but it falls under the same general umbrella of criminal procedure.

This reminds me of people coming to the forum to ask "where in state law does it say I can carry a gun into a bank?" Well, it doesn't, but it doesn't say anywhere that you cannot. Kinda the same situation. Nowhere in TCA does the legislature seem to restrict police powers for LEOs. One might argue that the "one mile" rule hints to it, but then again, the law never refers to officers, but to the powers of the municipality itself (municipal courts hearing cases, collecting fines, etc.?).

One thing we can all agree with... clearer TCA would be great.

[Fallguy]

Hmm. Sounds gray either way. The only thing I'm curious about, though, is how the "police team" doctrine would apply to officers outside their jurisdiction. I'm not at home at the moment, but search the Tenn AG opinions for the term "police team doctrine". There was an opinion issued in the last few years that, from what I recall, makes me wonder if jurisdiction matters one way or the other as long as an officer of the jurisdiction does the paperwork. Or maybe I'm forgetting an important part of the puzzle.

Yes, I'm familliar with the "Police Team" doctrine.

It is Opinion 08-181

Nothing in the opinion mentions about different agencies or jurisdictions, only "officer". The court cases cited may have more info, but not where I can look them up at the moment.

Of course as I said in my e-mail an citizen can arrest anyone anywhere in the state, so a LEO from town A could still arrest someone in town B. And possibly with the "Police Team" Doctrine an officer from town B could arrest/cite someone just based on officer from town A's word.

So like I said, not sure how much it changes in the end.......just how things are handled.

[Fallguy]

Wow… So a Nashville cop observes an armed robbery in Murfreesboro and he has no Police powers?

That’s pretty wild.

He can still arrest them and even use force, but just as a citizens arrest....what special "police powers" does he need?