UNLOADED CARRY LEGALITY?

[Guest Eliminator55]

I think I know this answer to this but, I wanted to get some input from fellow forum members.

This just happened to someone I know. He was pulled over by a cop for suspicious driving. He had an unloaded handgun laying in plain view on the front passenger seat in a holster. The cop handcuffed him, left him outside while he ran the serial number. After the serial came back clean, he removed the cuffs gave him a "talking to" and let him be on his way.

This person just turned 21 and is in the process of obtaining his carry permit. Due to that, he was intentionally not carrying ammunition. He was just carrying the firearm to a friends house to show him.

From what I understand, as long as a gun is not loaded or there is not ammunition on your person, or within the same vehicular area(gun in passenger area, ammunition in trunk, or if in a truck as he was gun in cabin and ammunition in the truck bed), it is legal to carry it because it is not an active weapon and there is no ammunition directly accessible? Am I wrong on this?

Also, if he were to have had ammunition in the cab, it would have basically been the same offense as if here were carrying a loaded firearm on his person? The cop said had he had ammunition in the cab he would have been arrested. As a side note, the officer was outside his jurisdiction. Is it even legal for him to make a stop outside his jurisdiction.

If he had a carry permit and were legally carrying a loaded firearm, is he required by law to notify the officer immediately?

THANKS, in advance for the answers!

One thing the legislators need to take care of is providing citizens the ability to carry loaded firearms in plain view or concealed in one's vehicle without the requirement for a permit. Many think Tennessee's gun laws are so loose. However, that is not at all the case. Tennessee needs to pass legislation to give citizens this right. The legislature should pass legislation like Mississippi has in place. Mississippi's law states explicitly that you have the right to carry a weapon in any manner within the confines of your vehicle. Your vehicle is considered the same as your home. This is a must. Tennessee is way behind. They need to quit fighting petty battles about the carrying boundaries(these are necessary but after basic gun rights have been established) and provide citizens the basic right to transport firearms. As of now it's ridiculous. California has less restrictive open carry law than Tennessee. In California, you can have loaded magazines on your person while openly carrying a handgun as long as the magazines are not inserted into the firearm. In Tennessee, that would qualify as illegal carrying. That's CRAZY, Tennessee's behind California in an aspect of firearms laws.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Eliminator55

[Punisher84]

Ok lots of questions and statements there, but in a nutshell he did nothing wrong and that's why he wasn't arrested. Not enough information about the jurisdiction statement to give an answer.

[Guest TargetShooter84]

Agreed.

And it is a nice gesture to notify the LEO that you are carrying but its not required....it just varies by the situation though.

[Guest bkelm18]

That's CRAZY, Tennessee's behind California in an aspect of firearms laws.

There are far worse states to live in when considering firearms law, and TN is way ahead of CA. TN's laws are fairly good when you look at some other states. Could they be better? Yes. Could they be worse? Much worse.

Edited December 25, 2010 by bkelm18

[JayC]

There are far worse states to live in when considering firearms law, and TN is way ahead of CA. TN's laws are fairly good when you look at some other states. Could they be better? Yes. Could they be worse? Much worse.

I'm sorry but TN is WAY behind a lot of states as far as gun laws go... Using NY, IL, or CA is a benchmark isn't a very good benchmark.

Lets go over some of the things we can't do that a lot of other states can:

Unlicensed Concealed Carry - 3 States

Unlicensed Open Carry - 12 States

College Carry not against state law - 27 States

And until just a year ago:

Restaurant Carry

We are a shall issue state (with at least one big exception), we do allow private sales, and generally ownership is pretty relaxed... but our laws are a complete mess, it's nearly impossible for the average police officer/HCP holder to truly understand what is or isn't legal, let alone your average citizen. Best case, we're running about a C if graded against the other 50 states, about 7% are doing great (AK, AZ, VT), about 20-50% are ahead of us in someway shape or form.

So yeah lets all celebrate the mediocrity that are TN gun laws

[Oh Shoot]

....So yeah lets all celebrate the mediocrity that are TN gun laws

Totally agree.

Plus TN has the distinction of being the only state that has a special penalty for permit holders who carry past a sign; one that a non-permit holder can't be charged with, incidentally. Also, a permit holder can lose his permit for 3 years for taking one sip of alcohol, yet a non-permit holder can get dead drunk while carrying, and though he might face other charges, none of them would prevent his getting a permit right away.

In this and some other nuances of the law, permit holders actually face harsher penalties than your average weapons totin' criminal.

- OS

[enfield]

One of those unlicensed open carry states, Michigan, also has handgun registration and doesn't allow silencers. You're just cherry-picking to prove your point.

Tennessee could be better, but we're not doing bad.

[eRay]

I don't have to notify the officer stopping me. My personalized tag is " GUN NUT". He will probably ask me right away.

[bigwakes]

I'll just say I'm glad I live in TN. I think the recent changes have made things a little worse for permit holders, but not as bad as it could be.

[SHOOTERTN]

i wrote this huge comment to this but im not gonna even give my input cause ill always be wrong to someone on here so.....ur friend just needs to get his permit and this wont happen to him.

Edited December 26, 2010 by shootertn

[dralarms]

I don't have to notify the officer stopping me. My personalized tag is " GUN NUT". He will probably ask me right away.

I think I've seen you around. LOL

[DaveTN]

As a side note, the officer was outside his jurisdiction. Is it even legal for him to make a stop outside his jurisdiction.

It is unless he was across the state line. And it may even be legal then if he is in “Hot Pursuit†for a serious offense.

I believe Tennessee is the same as the state I came from. The state certifies “Sworn Police Officersâ€; they have powers of arrest anywhere within the state.

But if you are having an argument during a traffic stop with a cop about whether or not he has jurisdiction; things probably aren’t going very well for you anyway.

[TNRobocop]

It is unless he was across the state line. And it may even be legal then if he is in “Hot Pursuit” for a serious offense.

I believe Tennessee is the same as the state I came from. The state certifies “Sworn Police Officers”; they have powers of arrest anywhere within the state.

But if you are having an argument during a traffic stop with a cop about whether or not he has jurisdiction; things probably aren’t going very well for you anyway.

Main thing is what the individual was stopped for. I am sure the officer just didn't see the gun in plain view while driving along and decide to go after your buddy.

If it is a minor traffic offense, outside your jurisdiction, not so much. But I can and have cited for misdemeanors committed in my presence, outside my immediate jurisdiction.

[Guest jth_3s]

Nobody has said anything about this cop violating this mans constitutional right. Even if you don't believe you have a God given right to keep and bear arms current state law (which violates the 2A) gave the officer no reason to detain (and handcuff) the man and run the serial number on his gun. He had commited no crime. Why is it taboo to talk about when a cop oversteps his bounds?

[m16ty]

You're not required to do so but I always tell the cop I'm armed when I get stopped. Some cops can be awfully jumpy and the last thing you want to do is have him eye your gun and suprise him.

Truth be told, they more than likely already know you're a permit holder when they run your tags. I've been stopped a few times and have never been asked to produce my HCP. They know you're a permit holder when they run your tags and/or DL. Your HCP and your DL are the same number.

[BlackHawk93]

Truth be told, they more than likely already know you're a permit holder when they run your tags. I've been stopped a few times and have never been asked to produce my HCP. They know you're a permit holder when they run your tags and/or DL. Your HCP and your DL are the same number.

Running the tags will not let the officer know you are a HCP holder. Only your Dl# will show that info. Simply running the tags will NOT give him your HCP status.

[Punisher84]

Nobody has said anything about this cop violating this mans constitutional right. Even if you don't believe you have a God given right to keep and bear arms current state law (which violates the 2A) gave the officer no reason to detain (and handcuff) the man and run the serial number on his gun. He had commited no crime. Why is it taboo to talk about when a cop oversteps his bounds?

He never said what he was stopped for. I don't really think the officer overstepped his bounds here. May not have handled things the way many would, but he had the right to check the gun out at least. TN state law allows LE to disarm a permit holder if they feel it necessary so I certainly imagine you can run the serial number of a gun found in this manner.

[dralarms]

Nobody has said anything about this cop violating this mans constitutional right. Even if you don't believe you have a God given right to keep and bear arms current state law (which violates the 2A) gave the officer no reason to detain (and handcuff) the man and run the serial number on his gun. He had commited no crime. Why is it taboo to talk about when a cop oversteps his bounds?

Ok, about that.

A Law enforcement office can and MAY detain you once a weapon is found, until it is determined that you pose no threat and are not being arrested. Being placed in handcuffs is not a violation of your civil rights. Cop saw a gun (probally unannounced), did what he determined to be the correct course of action until which time he found that the gun was 1. unloaded and 2. not stolen.

Sounds like your buddy needs to get over it, and learn to either put the thing in the trunk (not required but still a good idea), or learn to speak up to the officer and let them know "I have a firearm in the car, it's UNLOADED but I do have one (the whole time keeping hand on steering wheel until told to do other wize), what do you want me to do?"

People don't understand that a LE's only desire is to go home to loved ones at the end of their shift, and they do have one of the most dangerour jobs around, so yes they can be on edge.

[dralarms]

He never said what he was stopped for. I don't really think the officer overstepped his bounds here. May not have handled things the way many would, but he had the right to check the gun out at least. TN state law allows LE to disarm a permit holder if they feel it necessary so I certainly imagine you can run the serial number of a gun found in this manner.

Beat me to it.

[Punisher84]

Beat me to it.

Big +1 on your post anyway. Alot of people don't get that there are several better ways to go about things. Just because it's technically legal doesn't mean it's the best course if action.

[TGO David]

i wrote this huge comment to this but im not gonna even give my input cause ill always be wrong to someone on here so.....ur friend just needs to get his permit and this wont happen to him.

Hell, I'm always wrong to a lot of people on TGO. Doesn't mean I don't share my opinion though.

[JayC]

One of those unlicensed open carry states, Michigan, also has handgun registration and doesn't allow silencers. You're just cherry-picking to prove your point.

Tennessee could be better, but we're not doing bad.

I didn't say TN was an F... Just average at best. BTW I didn't count MI in any of my totals above... So yeah compared to MI, we're a little bit ahead... not much... just a little bit.

Compared to AZ, we're a lot behind.

[Fallguy]

To answer the OP questions..

No, carrying a firearm (even one unloaded) with the intent to go armed is illegal. It being unloaded is simply an enumerated defense, like having a HCP is, of it is a rifle possessed incident to hunting etc.... So until the determination can be made that is handgun is unloaded, that you have HCP, you've been hunting etc.... as far as the officer you are acting illegally.

Yes, had the ammo been in his reach or close to the gun under TN law it is considered loaded and the defense of it being unloaded would no longer apply.

No, you are not required in TN to notify an officer you are armed.

As far as police jurisdiction. I believe in general city officers only have jurisdiction up to one mile beyond the city limits (6-54-301) unless they are in fresh pursuit of a subject. Not 100% sure about County Deputies outside of their county.

As search of TN Atty General opinions can find ones where "if an officer has jurisdiction" is used, so that would seem to imply there are restrictions on jurisdiction.

However I agree on the side of the road is probably not the place to argue that.

[Guest jth_3s]

It says he was stopped for suspicious driving (not sure thats a legitimate reason). TN state law might give him the power to disarm a permit holder if he feels threatened but many LEOs do this everytime they encounter someone with a gun. I know the Constitution is a mute argument but many TN state laws violate the 2A. A good officer will not enforce these laws. Do you think Thomas Jefferson or any of the founders wanted people to be harassed for simply possessing a gun? Saying an LEO has the right to take you gun when they want is saying that you believe there should be reasonable restrictions on the 2A. Your right to bear arms is at the discretion of an LEO for the time you have an encounter with him. This ins't cop bashing just something to think about. Ive had a run in with both pro and anti-2A Leo's and know how both sides can be.

[m16ty]

I got stopped by a TN state trooper about a year ago (I had let my tags run out). I didn't let him know I had a gun at first becasue it wasn't on my person. When he asked for registration I told him there was a gun in the glove box as that's where the registration was. He asked if he could open the glove box and remove the gun. I had nothing to hide so I said ok. He opened the passenger door, took the gun out, laid the gun on the seat, and then dug my registration out. All the while I kept my hands on the steering wheel. After it was all over he did thank me for telling him there was a gun in the glove box and not just opened it myself.