Least over penetrating round for home defense

[Guest mosinon]

Found this test to be of supreme interest. The result went completely against me expectations.

Best round to avoid over penetration

On the other hand just because I didn't anticipate the result doesn't mean much. I'm surprised when the sun rises each day.

That said, I'm rethinking my plan. I had it whittled down to either a .25 Raven or a 50 cal Barrett.

Edited December 22, 2010 by mosinon
because I'm slow.

[luvmyberetta]

I've seen this for sale before and it looks like good ammo & the velocities are incredible, but the price hurts...$60+ just to fill one mag on my SR9. At shows and where I live it runs $20-$26 for a 6 count pack. I know, in theory, one or two shots should do it, but I'd like to be able to practice without getting a bank loan before hitting the range. Just my

[Gun Smith]

"5/8 inch drywall was used in order to comply with all relevant building codes."

Not a big deal to me, but to my knowledge most residential construction uses 1/2 inch drywall.

[Oh Shoot]

I've seen this for sale before and it looks like good ammo & the velocities are incredible, but the price hurts...$60+ just to fill one mag on my SR9. At shows and where I live it runs $20-$26 for a 6 count pack. I know, in theory, one or two shots should do it, but I'd like to be able to practice without getting a bank loan before hitting the range. Just my

WHAT is "this"?

- OS

[RobertNashville]

"5/8 inch drywall was used in order to comply with all relevant building codes."

Not a big deal to me, but to my knowledge most residential construction uses 1/2 inch drywall.

I'd think what thickness of drywall is used might well depend on the building codes (if any) of the location where the construction is happening wouldn't it?

Edited December 22, 2010 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

I've chosen to use .223/5.56 precisely because of over-penetration concerns. While I always have a 12ga and a .45 handgun handy, my first choice, if I can get to it, is my SCAR.

I've been told, although not confirmed, that many law enforcement agencies are replacing their 12 ga shotguns and switching to AR15 and .223 due to the same over-penetration concerns.

[Guest Jamie]

One thing about a high-speed .22 cal projectile; you f**k with it in-flight, it quits pretty quick.

*Before anybody starts thinking I've gone all tactical here and am telling war stories, I'm basing that comment on shooting at turtles in a stocked catfish pond with a .222.

You'd better not let there be a reed or cat tail be between you and the target, otherwise you're likely to just leave a rut or two in his shell if you hit him at all.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Jamie

[Jonnin]

Im a little confused as to why one would use a 223 for defense if worried about penetration. To me, its ability to cut thru some cover is an advantage that, once taken away, turns the weapon into a much weaker gun that has only one advantage anymore (extreme high capacity possible).

If you want a high capacity gun that won't penetrate too far and is good for defense, get one of those semi automatic tommy-gun clones instead. It would be a better weapon for home defense if worried about shooting thru a wall, and if you need more than a 50 round drum, you have a serious problem (one way or another, either an army is after you or you can't shoot very well).

[JeffL]

A direct hit with a 5.56x45 will have better terminal ballistics than .45 ACP. It kills people deader.

[Guest Jamie]

To me, its ability to cut thru some cover is an advantage

Not inside your home it's not. The bullet not stopping inside an interior, or even exterior, wall is a major disadvantage. It puts other people besides the B.G. at risk, and puts YOU at risk of injuring or killing someone you didn't intend to.

If you want a high capacity gun that won't penetrate too far and is good for defense, get one of those semi automatic tommy-gun clones instead. It would be a better weapon for home defense if worried about shooting thru a wall, and if you need more than a 50 round drum, you have a serious problem (one way or another, either an army is after you or you can't shoot very well).

Those old Thompsons and their clones are HEAVY, weighing 13 pounds or better. They also aren't exactly cheap, at $1200 or so. Factor in that a slow heavy bullet will often penetrate better than a fast light one, and you have one unfit home defense gun.

[Jonnin]

A direct hit with a 5.56x45 will have better terminal ballistics than .45 ACP. It kills people deader.

I think you just explained excessive force as is used by the court system. "He was too much deader than needed, just lightly dead would have been good enough."

Seriously though, TB isnt an exact enough science to be able to say that. With the exact same shot placement and number of shots, can you really say the 223 is more effective (kills more often under identical conditons)? Are you assuming the 223 will tumble or fragment or bounce (they do some nasty things at times)? Was the 45 a JHP that expanded or a flat nose/wadcutter or a nato JSP? Also, its the old question of energy vs momentum. The 45 has a lot more momentum, the 223 has more muzzle energy. I am not going to try to claim either one is better, I think either will result in fatal wounds if fired 3-5 times into someone's chest, I am just curious as to how you can justify this blanket statement (if you were serious).

The 45 will go thru drywall, too. If the requirement is a round that will NOT, special ammo will still be required. I was thinking more along the lines of "house" than "apartment". I would think a street sweeper shotgun might be in order, with a light load of steel birdshot...

I agree Jamie, guess what I was trying to say is if I busted out my .223 it would be to either make a long range shot (over 100 yards) or to try to punch thru a door/wall with it (which almost anything I have can do just as well, as you said, but I respect the cutting power of the 223, I have cut a piece of rebar (holding up my target) in half with it while most other stuff I have tends to bend/dent the metal). I would not use the 223 if the opposite effect were desired. I guess if I had this special ammo, that would be a neat choice, but I would feel like I lost most of the "perks" that I got a 223 for in the first place. You are right about the thompsons, that was a bad example. Honestly, I am not sure what I would use if penetration of drywall would be considered a bad thing, like in a small apartment complex. Special ammo would be needed for any gun I possess if that is the criteria, I am satisfied if it doesnt penetrate the exterior walls (and most of mine will not do that, only the rifles or the 223 pistol).

Edited December 22, 2010 by Jonnin

[Guest Jamie]

What we need are exploding bullets that detonate 6 inches or so after they hit an object of any sort. "Smart bullets", if you will.

Because any conventional round that's going to be adequate for stopping a human is probably going to zing right through most ordinary building materials.

But then again, in a way that's what light fast bullets do... they self-destruct on impact with any substantial material they hit.

Yes, they'll destroy rebar and such, but that's due to the amount of energy they're releasing... They don't tend to do much once they've hit it though.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Jamie

[RobertNashville]

Im a little confused as to why one would use a 223 for defense if worried about penetration. To me, its ability to cut thru some cover is an advantage that, once taken away, turns the weapon into a much weaker gun that has only one advantage anymore (extreme high capacity possible).

If you want a high capacity gun that won't penetrate too far and is good for defense, get one of those semi automatic tommy-gun clones instead. It would be a better weapon for home defense if worried about shooting thru a wall, and if you need more than a 50 round drum, you have a serious problem (one way or another, either an army is after you or you can't shoot very well).

As Jamie noted (above), over-penetration is a very real concern inside your home; especially if your home is in a suburb. I've seen many, many tests where even the lowly .38 special will penetrate through most drywall, glass, etc. far more than most suspect and if you are using a 12ga or 357 or 45 your bullets are likely to wind up going right through your exterior walls and into your neighbor's house (or hitting a family member in another room).

Now...if you live out in the middle of nowhere with no neighbor houses anywhere near you then the problem of over-penetration is lessened...I also realize that we need to "hit our target", etc. etc. but no one, in my humble opinion, should discount the very real possibility that our rounds can go places we don't necessarily want them to go and especially in a stressful situation like defending our lives.

[Jonnin]

Yea, I live out away from this type of concern and its just me and the wife. Its not something I have had to think about enough: if cornered in my bedroom at night for example, a round would have to pass 2-3 interior walls and 1 exterior wall unless the guy was climbing into my window (second floor). If cornered downstairs, the bulk of it is underground and the one side that is not doesnt have a home in line of sight. The only way I could shoot into another home would be by aiming at it, and even then, I would be hard pressed to shoot through my window and into theirs. So long as a brick wall will stop the rounds, I am OK.

Having a hard time convincing myself that a bullet that cannot go thru regular dry wall would stop an intruder though, its just an odd concept to me. I cant see myself using something like that, or needing to. It would take a lot of hands-on to convince me that this stuff works.

[Guest Jamie]

Having a hard time convincing myself that a bullet that cannot go thru regular dry wall would stop an intruder though, its just an odd concept to me. I cant see myself using something like that, or needing to. It would take a lot of hands-on to convince me that this stuff works.

You're missing the point here... If you'll go back to the first post and click the link, you'll see that the .223 Ranger 55gr. soft points DID go through the first wall... but they were fragmented enough that they didn't go through the second wall.

So, where they would play holy hell with human anatomy, a miss wouldn't go very much past the first couple of pieces of drywall.

The idea is to dump all the energy the bullet carries into your target, but not to have enough left over to cause problems elsewhere. It looks like to me that round did that fairly well.

[Jonnin]

ah, I see, I misread it. Shows what I get for skimming while I work...

[MacGyver]

The best ammunition for avoiding over penetration is ammo with which you ensure that every round you fire hits what you're aiming at. Period. There are no magic bullets. Any round that is capable of stopping a bad guy is also capable of possibly going through multiple walls.

Suddenly finding a bad guy in your house doesn't suddenly translate into a free fire zone. In fact, it may be the place where you want to be the surest of shot placement. Any modern round from .22 short on up is capable of killing through two or more sheets of drywall. The rules apply in your home as well. Knowing what's beyond your target is of utmost importance.

Any round marketed otherwise is just pure marketing hype in my opinion.

[Jonnin]

The best ammunition for avoiding over penetration is ammo with which you ensure that every round you fire hits what you're aiming at. Period. There are no magic bullets. Any round that is capable of stopping a bad guy is also capable of possibly going through multiple walls.

Suddenly finding a bad guy in your house doesn't suddenly translate into a free fire zone. In fact, it may be the place where you want to be the surest of shot placement. Any modern round from .22 short on up is capable of killing through two or more sheets of drywall. The rules apply in your home as well. Knowing what's beyond your target is of utmost importance.

Any round marketed otherwise is just pure marketing hype in my opinion.

I went back and read it much more carefully.

The study seems to be objective, a backyard sort of testing not one done to promote anything. Just a here is what we did, here is what happened sort of thing. If its hype, its pretty well disguised, as he offered several options on different bullet weights and types for various needs, across several brands.

So much for getting a 223 to go thru a cardoor/etc because the handgun wouldnt, haha. I need a range where I can shoot at junk, these "paper targets only" rules prevent me from testing anything. Sigh. Maybe I should reverse that, keep the handgun for penetration .... Now I really don't know what to think, we got high speed rounds cutting thru metal and objects that stop a handgun round cold, then we have handgun rounds going thru other stuff that the high speed ones will not...

I think I am going to take a deep breath, focus on not getting attacked, use whatever I can lay to hand if I am, and call it a day!

[Guest Jamie]

The best ammunition for avoiding over penetration is ammo with which you ensure that every round you fire hits what you're aiming at. Period.

Yes, and the only round you can 100% guarantee will never miss the target or go someplace it's not supposed to is one you never fire.

Given that, and the fact that there's always a chance one will go somewhere other than intended, under stress, we have to do the best we can to minimize the potential damage should the worst happen and things not go quite according to plan.

It's the whole reason seat belts, air bags, insurance, etc. exist, after all.

[Guest bkelm18]

Yes, and the only round you can 100% guarantee will never miss the target or go someplace it's not supposed to is one you never fire.

Given that, and the fact that there's always a chance one will go somewhere other than intended, under stress, we have to do the best we can to minimize the potential damage should the worst happen and things not go quite according to plan.

It's the whole reason seat belts, air bags, insurance, etc. exist, after all.

+1

[Guest Jamie]

I need a range where I can shoot at junk, these "paper targets only" rules prevent me from testing anything.

There's a lot to be said for being able to shoot "stuff" and see what happens. Much can be learned from actually laying eyes on the results of "having done", as opposed to just reading what somebody else says they did.

[Gun Smith]

There's a lot to be said for being able to shoot "stuff" and see what happens. Much can be learned from actually laying eyes on the results of "having done", as opposed to just reading what somebody else says they did.

Yep. And I can't hardly wait til I get the chance to do some testing of my own. I have 2x4's and scrap drywall. All I have to do is some assembly and head out the back door.

[Guest Jamie]

You guys wouldn't believe some of the things I've shot at, or what I've shot at 'em with.

[Guest BungieCord]

Your risk of getting killed due to underpenetration is much greater than an innocent bystander's risk from overpenetration.

Civilian, military or LEO, the vast majority of all shots fired in gunbattles miss the intended target. There's an exponentially greater risk to bystanders from all the shots that missed the mook from than the ones that hit him but exited.

If I hit the mook, I want a thru-and-thru. That's the only way I can be sure the bullet hit everything it possibly could have. And for HD, I want to be able to shoot through sheetrock and the bullet emerge still lethal. You get extra points for incapacitating a home invader without exposing yourself to return fire.

[RobertNashville]

Your risk of getting killed due to underpenetration is much greater than an innocent bystander's risk from overpenetration.

Civilian, military or LEO, the vast majority of all shots fired in gunbattles miss the intended target. There's an exponentially greater risk to bystanders from all the shots that missed the mook from than the ones that hit him but exited.

That's a pretty bold statement...is is just your opinion of is there empirical evidence to support it?

If I hit the mook, I want a thru-and-thru. That's the only way I can be sure the bullet hit everything it possibly could have. And for HD, I want to be able to shoot through sheetrock and the bullet emerge still lethal. You get extra points for incapacitating a home invader without exposing yourself to return fire.

If someone lives in a home/area when there are no innocent bystanders to be killed then there is no problem...but...if someone does live in such a home/area then not taking overpenetration into account seems somewhat reckless to me...for me; I'd rather be killed by a bad gun in my home that risk killing an innocent in the house next door.

Edited December 23, 2010 by RobertNashville